Concealed carry in Boro's schools - n...

“Civic Innovation Designer”

Since: Mar 11

Springboro, Ohio

#23 Aug 1, 2013
1st responders R us wrote:
Good points. This is a "ridiculous conversation" only for those who feel 100% confident and secure with security cameras, door buzzers, and front desk receptionist check-in stations. There are many out there who agree with the following point. I want people in the schools who will physically defend the lives of the schools occupants in case of an attack.
I realize the media hasn't given us many options other than guns and gun free zones in the gun debate, but I believe this to be a deadly oversimplification of what safety means in public education.

We do score highly in the security of our campus, but I would argue that strapping guns on our teachers conflicts with no. 7 of Whole Child education. In other words, conflict resolution should focus on other things before how the use of a firearm. However, I would agree that these two perspectives of security and conflict resolution are incomplete, and would invite you to read the 10 perspectives from the Whole Child's point of view:

http://www.wholechildeducation.org/assets/con...
1st responders R us

Cleveland, OH

#24 Aug 1, 2013
Open Springboro wrote:
<quoted text>
I realize the media hasn't given us many options other than guns and gun free zones in the gun debate, but I believe this to be a deadly oversimplification of what safety means in public education.
We do score highly in the security of our campus, but I would argue that strapping guns on our teachers conflicts with no. 7 of Whole Child education. In other words, conflict resolution should focus on other things before how the use of a firearm. However, I would agree that these two perspectives of security and conflict resolution are incomplete, and would invite you to read the 10 perspectives from the Whole Child's point of view:
http://www.wholechildeducation.org/assets/con...
OK. Fine. I'll bite. The Whole Child's 10 Steps has a great deal of merit in that it's about mental development and preventing violence from occuring in the 1st place.

However, that 10 Step whole Child represents Utopia - everything and everyone working well together toward a perfect common destination.

Obviously not everything in our world works in a state of Utopia.

Let me illustrate a hypothetical but very realistic scenario-
An armed person penetrates security of the Whole Child "our school" and is shooting his way down the entrance hallway, moving quickly towards another hall containing classrooms full of schoolchildren. An administrator has already contacted 9-1-1. Police and EMT emergency response is at best, 2 to 3 minutes away. The district's only paid armed resource officer is at another building approximately 3 to 4 minutes away. Concealed carry by school staff is banned. The armed attacker is easily going to reach one or more classroom doorsways in less than 30 seconds.

You tell me, Open Springboro, what's this story's conclusion?
Without SOMEONE there to at least attempt to put up a reasonable defense, what's likely going to happen inside one of those classrooms?

“Civic Innovation Designer”

Since: Mar 11

Springboro, Ohio

#25 Aug 1, 2013
1st responders R us wrote:
You tell me, Open Springboro, what's this story's conclusion?
Without SOMEONE there to at least attempt to put up a reasonable defense, what's likely going to happen inside one of those classrooms?
Sounds like a shoot out. Am I right?

Imagine if children knew what it looked like when one of their classmates were struggling? Could be struggling for attention, struggling for help, struggling to get out of the way of a bullet.

When you oversimplify the safety of our children you overlook an infinite number of steps in between.
How Far Do We Go

Englewood, OH

#26 Aug 1, 2013
So where does this end?

Some kids walk from the school down to the KW. Should we make sure the girls there are armed? Someone could attack them there at the K. We can't leave our kids defenseless.

The school kids ride on busses to and from school. Should we arm the bus drivers? Should we install a .50 cal turret up on the top of the bus?

What about sports? Many kids play sports...should we make sure all the coaches have a gun at practice and games?

Kids like to go on field trips. Do we make sure the museums, farms, etc. where they go have armed staff?

Where does it end?

Since: Jul 13

Location hidden

#27 Aug 2, 2013
How Far Do We Go wrote:
So where does this end?
Some kids walk from the school down to the KW. Should we make sure the girls there are armed? Someone could attack them there at the K. We can't leave our kids defenseless.
The school kids ride on busses to and from school. Should we arm the bus drivers? Should we install a .50 cal turret up on the top of the bus?
What about sports? Many kids play sports...should we make sure all the coaches have a gun at practice and games?
Kids like to go on field trips. Do we make sure the museums, farms, etc. where they go have armed staff?
Where does it end?
It ends when you achieve utopia and no criminal ever carries a gun. Since that is never going to happen the real question is what amount of risk are you willing to subject your child to? The reality is there are bad people out there and, in most circumstances, the cops won't be there to protect them when said criminal does their thing. They usually get there in time to clean up the mess.

“Civic Innovation Designer”

Since: Mar 11

Springboro, Ohio

#28 Aug 2, 2013
Lerxst- wrote:
It ends when you achieve utopia and no criminal ever carries a gun. Since that is never going to happen the real question is what amount of risk are you willing to subject your child to?
How about we stop using the word utopia and replace it with Edutopia? Because the latter is a real thing that shows us how to create safe, engaged learning environments which involve the whole community.

http://www.youtube.com/Edutopia

To use the K&W as an example, the whole community could participate in the safety of our children walking to and from school, not by simply having their firearms at the ready, but by making it a goal to provide a safe journey between the two points. This could take the form of a meet and greet with local businesses and residents, a reward system for walking so many miles, finding some way to cut back on the congestion along Main Street, or turning that to our advantage by asking the parents to help keep a watchful eye out while waiting in the traffic jam.

To turn an old phrase, when you look at every problem down the barrel of a gun, every solution looks like a target. There are clearly an infinite number of solutions available as long as we're willing to view the problem from multiple perspectives.
1st responders R us

Cleveland, OH

#29 Aug 2, 2013
Open Springboro wrote:
<quoted text>
How about we stop using the word utopia and replace it with Edutopia? Because the latter is a real thing that shows us how to create safe, engaged learning environments which involve the whole community.
http://www.youtube.com/Edutopia
To use the K&W as an example, the whole community could participate in the safety of our children walking to and from school, not by simply having their firearms at the ready, but by making it a goal to provide a safe journey between the two points. This could take the form of a meet and greet with local businesses and residents, a reward system for walking so many miles, finding some way to cut back on the congestion along Main Street, or turning that to our advantage by asking the parents to help keep a watchful eye out while waiting in the traffic jam.
To turn an old phrase, when you look at every problem down the barrel of a gun, every solution looks like a target. There are clearly an infinite number of solutions available as long as we're willing to view the problem from multiple perspectives.
The kumbaya you so eloquently describe is fine and well. All of what you say makes sense moving forward toward a much safer future. However, what about NOW? What about those tens of thousands of classrooms full of sitting ducks? I like a lot of what you have to say, but the fact remains the general public, teachers, and our school children are at an exponentially higher risk of danger so long as "gun free zone" stickers remain posted on the front doors of schools and public institutions.

Yes, better communication is the answer and it works. But O.S. you have to face reality...there always will be bad guys with access to guns. And the most effective way to thwart a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.
RIGANO where are you

Cleveland, OH

#30 Aug 3, 2013
1st responders R us wrote:
<quoted text>
The kumbaya you so eloquently describe is fine and well. All of what you say makes sense moving forward toward a much safer future. However, what about NOW? What about those tens of thousands of classrooms full of sitting ducks? I like a lot of what you have to say, but the fact remains the general public, teachers, and our school children are at an exponentially higher risk of danger so long as "gun free zone" stickers remain posted on the front doors of schools and public institutions.
Yes, better communication is the answer and it works. But O.S. you have to face reality...there always will be bad guys with access to guns. And the most effective way to thwart a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.
And can you define who a "good guy with a gun " is exactly?

Since: Jul 13

Location hidden

#31 Aug 3, 2013
Open Springboro wrote:
<quoted text>
How about we stop using the word utopia and replace it with Edutopia? Because the latter is a real thing that shows us how to create safe, engaged learning environments which involve the whole community.
http://www.youtube.com/Edutopia
To use the K&W as an example, the whole community could participate in the safety of our children walking to and from school, not by simply having their firearms at the ready, but by making it a goal to provide a safe journey between the two points. This could take the form of a meet and greet with local businesses and residents, a reward system for walking so many miles, finding some way to cut back on the congestion along Main Street, or turning that to our advantage by asking the parents to help keep a watchful eye out while waiting in the traffic jam.
To turn an old phrase, when you look at every problem down the barrel of a gun, every solution looks like a target. There are clearly an infinite number of solutions available as long as we're willing to view the problem from multiple perspectives.
All fine and well, but tell me how this edutopia concept would prevent a sandy hook, columbine, etc. The concepts of it are fine, but do you think a gunman cares one bit about edutopia?

Since: Jul 13

Location hidden

#32 Aug 3, 2013
RIGANO where are you wrote:
<quoted text>
And can you define who a "good guy with a gun " is exactly?
How about the properly trained teacher or administrator at the school? We keep hearing how great our Springboro teachers and administrators are so it should follow that they are trustworthy. If they are able and willing then why not let them be the last line of defense?
Jim P

Englewood, OH

#33 Aug 3, 2013
Lerxst- wrote:
<quoted text>
How about the properly trained teacher or administrator at the school? We keep hearing how great our Springboro teachers and administrators are so it should follow that they are trustworthy. If they are able and willing then why not let them be the last line of defense?
There is a much better chance of an accidental shooting than a Columbine or Sandy Hook. Look at the statistics. Why introduce a new hazard to our schools that isn't already there?

“Civic Innovation Designer”

Since: Mar 11

Springboro, Ohio

#34 Aug 3, 2013
Lerxst- wrote:
All fine and well, but tell me how this edutopia concept would prevent a sandy hook, columbine, etc. The concepts of it are fine, but do you think a gunman cares one bit about edutopia?
I don't think a gunman cares about Edutopia, but I don't believe guns are at the root of either the problem or the solution. Where I feel education has gone TERRIBLY wrong is in the teaching curriculum, as I know by experience as a student and parent that kids are given material to study for the test.

The problem with the teaching curriculum is that students are not taught how to solve problems. If we throw the curriculum out the window and start with the problem they're trying to solve, teachers can build a project which allows students to search for answers, and come across the knowledge naturally when it makes sense to them.

In the context of the safety issue, compare a standard curriculum to problem based learning. If a student is suffering from rage stemming from a lack of respect, there is nothing on the test to solve their problems, but there is plenty of examples in the media such as columbine, Sandyhook, etc.

However, from the perspective of problem based learning, children are taught how to solve problems, by connecting with their peers, searching online, or asking an expert, and then testing the solution to see if it actually solves their problem. As self-reliant, competitive, rugged individualists, I don't believe there is much reliance on the community embedded in our culture.

But as I stated originally, I don't believe the problem or the answer is with guns. Safety is a community issue, and if we're going to solve it we need teach the children how to be productive members of our community.
1st responders R us

Cleveland, OH

#35 Aug 4, 2013
Lerxst- wrote:
<quoted text>
How about the properly trained teacher or administrator at the school? We keep hearing how great our Springboro teachers and administrators are so it should follow that they are trustworthy. If they are able and willing then why not let them be the last line of defense?
Springboro schools already has a number of employees including several teachers who hold concealed carry permits. I'm certain the board knows who many of them are.
Just like what recently happened in Trenton OH and earlier this year in Montpelier OH, the thing that needs to happen for our board to approve concealed carry is for local law enforcement to throw their support behind it.
Unfortunately for the long-term safety of this district's students and employees, local law enforcement leadership is less than proficient in proactive cooperative planning strategy.
Bobby S

Englewood, OH

#36 Aug 4, 2013
1st responders R us wrote:
<quoted text>
Unfortunately for the long-term safety of this district's students and employees, local law enforcement leadership is less than proficient in proactive cooperative planning strategy.
Am I missing something? Who from law enforcement is against law abiding citizens carrying firearms?
1st responders R us

Cleveland, OH

#37 Aug 4, 2013
Bobby S wrote:
<quoted text>
Am I missing something? Who from law enforcement is against law abiding citizens carrying firearms?
In clarification of your response, local law enforcement leadership isn't in favor of legal concealed carry on school property or inside school buildings.
rick

Cleveland, OH

#38 Aug 20, 2013
Jim P wrote:
<quoted text>
There is a much better chance of an accidental shooting than a Columbine or Sandy Hook. Look at the statistics. Why introduce a new hazard to our schools that isn't already there?
This point would lose alot of luster the awful day childrens bodies have to be counted. Each school district needs to have a plan for each building whether its hiring more officers, or arming trained staff.
Hollywood

Euclid, OH

#39 Aug 20, 2013
Look - most gun advocates seem to think real life is Hollywood. IT'S NOT!!

You're not going to stop anyone who wants to cause harm by arming teachers or by having police officers in school.

The bad guy always has the advantage. He or she has the element of surprise on their side.

The bad guy knows what teachers have a gun, the bad guy knows where the cops are...

The bad guy knows when, where and how he's going to cause harm -

The bad guy can spend a lot time plotting and planning ....

The bad guy doesn't even have to use a gun, just his imagination.

And you think teachers with limited experience are going to stop the bad guy with a gun in a lockbox?

If guns are put in schools, it is statistically far more likely someone will die by an accidental shooting, and is also more likely students will find a way to get their hands on those guns.

We have a violence problem in this country. We have a generation if children who think they can do whatever they want because parents suck!!

Total lack of discipline, parents are too busy texting their friends and cheating on their spouses and their children are running wild looking for attention any attention they can get.

Not to mention social media distracting and corrupting our children.

Arming teachers won't stop anything.
Hollywood

Euclid, OH

#40 Aug 20, 2013
Let me add this...

Some of you "law abiding, responsible gun owners" appear to be a little too anxious to pull a trigger.

Lets be clear about one thing...

You're only "law abiding and responsible"

UNTIL YOU'RE NOT!!!!

Think about that.

It only takes one pull of a trigger, to go from law abiding to criminal - Or responsible to irresponsible.

If you understand what I'm saying, I applaud you.

If you don't understand my point, I suggest you get rid of all your guns until you do.
Media

Euclid, OH

#41 Aug 21, 2013
Lets face it, if the media continues to make these kids famous (infamous) for shooting up schools, then we will continue to have this problem.

The combination of kids desperately wanting attention, and the media giving it to them - is deadly.

If it became a felony to publish the identity of a school shooter - you would see a serious decline in school shootings.

The felony would apply to everyone including Facebook users, bloggers, and would require police to seal the identity.

School shootings are fueled by the 1st amendment, not the 2nd.
rick

Cleveland, OH

#42 Aug 21, 2013
Hollywood wrote:
Look - most gun advocates seem to think real life is Hollywood. IT'S NOT!!
You're not going to stop anyone who wants to cause harm by arming teachers or by having police officers in school.
The bad guy always has the advantage. He or she has the element of surprise on their side.
The bad guy knows what teachers have a gun, the bad guy knows where the cops are...
The bad guy knows when, where and how he's going to cause harm -
The bad guy can spend a lot time plotting and planning ....
The bad guy doesn't even have to use a gun, just his imagination.
And you think teachers with limited experience are going to stop the bad guy with a gun in a lockbox?
If guns are put in schools, it is statistically far more likely someone will die by an accidental shooting, and is also more likely students will find a way to get their hands on those guns.
We have a violence problem in this country. We have a generation if children who think they can do whatever they want because parents suck!!
Total lack of discipline, parents are too busy texting their friends and cheating on their spouses and their children are running wild looking for attention any attention they can get.
Not to mention social media distracting and corrupting our children.
Arming teachers won't stop anything.
lol! I won't disagree with you regarding your parents suck comment. However you must understand not every school shooting gas been the same. Some were certainly premeditated. Others were found to be somewhat spur of the moment. Usually the common factor is some sort of mental illness on the part of the gunman. People with mental problems are prone to making mistakes. You fail to give due credit to trained resource officers and school staff with proper conceal and carry training for their learned knowledge and or inherent instinct in knowing how to deal with an attacker and an attack situation. You automatically assume them to be vulnerable targets. You are WRONG!!

You post alot of moans and groans, but no answers. It is illegal, illogical, impractical and next to impossible to take guns out of hands of civilians. So what do you suppose we as a society should be doing? How about we permanently medicate everyone? How about we build razor wire fortresses around our schools? What do YOU propose a course of action might be to stop this increasing gun violence in our schools?

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