If Evolution were True

[___shark___]

Jimmy Rants wrote:

<quoted text>
My only argument to this is, if God knew all things beforehand, then he knew your final outcome before you were born...but allowed you to end up as he knew you would.....I see no free will here at all under this situation.
If God knew your final outcome...you were doomed or blessed before you were born, knocking out free will all together. Your fate was already sealed by God knowing everything, and no matter what you wanted to do while on earth...his will, not yours, was determined in the pre-existence. He had the power to change it, but didn't before you were born. So, many, if not most are doomed according to this God knows all things beforehand rule.
One last thing...if you read in Isaiah 45:7 in the KJV....check out who created evil...It's pretty clear who created it. It's almost an oxymoron to me, and confusing, and God is not suppose to be the author of confusion.
Just a thought.

Honestly I don't believe it is like you are describing right here, but that's just me. I feel like that God gave us free will and we have these choices. I think that God has a will but that whatever choices we make, then our paths fall into place. Like if God gives me an opportunity, one that leads to somethign good, but I don't take it, then whatever else I choose is also designed for me. Maybe God doesn't just have ONE path for us to follow like a lot of people think. Maybe we have a lot of paths that could work out for us. So what I'm saying is, I don't think God purposefully let anyone be born that he knew would go to Hell. I just don't think that.

[-Seeker-]

Predestination is a chaotic theory made famous by John Calvin. It is utter foolishness and has no place in any religion. Knowledge of the TRUE essence of our Creator are reserved for those who have an inherent belief, a knowing, that we decend from an ancient, all powerful Source. For all others, it is a mystery, its hidden from them, and they cannot understand for they haven't the knowledge that we have. Because of this stubborn persistence to simply accept the obvious, very few are being given true understanding in this age. Because most have assumed that they understand God's purpose,(Or whatever you chose to call this awesome deity) they remain totally blind to the great truth of what it is!
Did God actually pre-plan every sin, every act of immorality and every crime that has ever been committed? Is God the author of every war—every act of civil disobedience—every divorce—every suicide—every murder? Did God pre-plan every rape—every act of child abuse—every lie ever told—every time one chooses to cheat on his income taxes? C'mon now! If you have only one brain cell, then you should be able to see the answer to these questions! To me, the easiest way to attempt to explain God's intentions are to liken them to a good parent's intentions. We create these little miracles and want only the very best for them. We instill in them knowledge of right and wrong, good and evil and hope that it guides them thru life the way we intended it too. We don't live their lives for them, we don't make their choices for them and even as much as it hurts us, we let them learn from their own mistakes, to do anything else would make them nothing more than our puppets, robots to do as we instruct them to do. That would negate the purpose of procreation wouldn't it? God have us the intelligence to know the difference and what we do with this knowledge determines our fate. Its just that simple.
And as for the Isaiah 45 verse, it is what it is. Our creator is capable of all these things because He IS all these things. Aren't we, his children made in His image, also capable of all these things?? Can we not make peace or create evil? My beliefs are that this most ancient source are everything that our human minds can think of and much, much more. It is male and female, good and evil, light and dark, peaceful and vengeful. To those who scoff at this most powerful and ancient of Beings, it is nothing more than a issue of ego. They cannot accept that there is something grander, or more powerful than they themselves are. Their over inflated ego's won't allow them to acknowledge this and so they persist in blind persuit of some explanation for it. As I said, because of their blindness, the mysteries are hidden from them, they possess no knowledge that the rest of us possess and no amount of explanation from any of us will open their eyes to this truth. Its like banging your head against the wall, painful and useless.

[___shark___]

-Seeker- wrote:

Predestination is a chaotic theory made famous by John Calvin. It is utter foolishness and has no place in any religion. Knowledge of the TRUE essence of our Creator are reserved for those who have an inherent belief, a knowing, that we decend from an ancient, all powerful Source. For all others, it is a mystery, its hidden from them, and they cannot understand for they haven't the knowledge that we have. Because of this stubborn persistence to simply accept the obvious, very few are being given true understanding in this age. Because most have assumed that they understand God's purpose,(Or whatever you chose to call this awesome deity) they remain totally blind to the great truth of what it is!
Did God actually pre-plan every sin, every act of immorality and every crime that has ever been committed? Is God the author of every war—every act of civil disobedience—every divorce—every suicide—every murder? Did God pre-plan every rape—every act of child abuse—every lie ever told—every time one chooses to cheat on his income taxes? C'mon now! If you have only one brain cell, then you should be able to see the answer to these questions! To me, the easiest way to attempt to explain God's intentions are to liken them to a good parent's intentions. We create these little miracles and want only the very best for them. We instill in them knowledge of right and wrong, good and evil and hope that it guides them thru life the way we intended it too. We don't live their lives for them, we don't make their choices for them and even as much as it hurts us, we let them learn from their own mistakes, to do anything else would make them nothing more than our puppets, robots to do as we instruct them to do. That would negate the purpose of procreation wouldn't it? God have us the intelligence to know the difference and what we do with this knowledge determines our fate. Its just that simple.
And as for the Isaiah 45 verse, it is what it is. Our creator is capable of all these things because He IS all these things. Aren't we, his children made in His image, also capable of all these things?? Can we not make peace or create evil? My beliefs are that this most ancient source are everything that our human minds can think of and much, much more. It is male and female, good and evil, light and dark, peaceful and vengeful. To those who scoff at this most powerful and ancient of Beings, it is nothing more than a issue of ego. They cannot accept that there is something grander, or more powerful than they themselves are. Their over inflated ego's won't allow them to acknowledge this and so they persist in blind persuit of some explanation for it. As I said, because of their blindness, the mysteries are hidden from them, they possess no knowledge that the rest of us possess and no amount of explanation from any of us will open their eyes to this truth. Its like banging your head against the wall, painful and useless.

Very well said, Seeker! I agree and I enjoyed reading it!

[Jimmy Rants]

___shark___ wrote:

<quoted text>
Honestly I don't believe it is like you are describing right here, but that's just me. I feel like that God gave us free will and we have these choices. I think that God has a will but that whatever choices we make, then our paths fall into place. Like if God gives me an opportunity, one that leads to somethign good, but I don't take it, then whatever else I choose is also designed for me. Maybe God doesn't just have ONE path for us to follow like a lot of people think. Maybe we have a lot of paths that could work out for us. So what I'm saying is, I don't think God purposefully let anyone be born that he knew would go to Hell. I just don't think that.

Then according to what you explained, he would not be almighty.

To be almighty, he would have to know everything, and if he knew everything beforehand, and the bible clearly teaches he knows everything, always has, always will...then you were born to play out his game since knows your final fate.(This is exactly why I cannot buy into this way of unrational thinking.....but that is me.)

God knows what you are going to do before you do it...cause he always knew everything.

It just can't be both ways.

Either God knows all, or he doesn't, and if he doesn't, then he is not almighty, and if that is the case, the bible is very wrong.

Ya know, I guess it's kinda like what the guy said last night....it's whatever you want it to be, and also for me.

It is something to think about.

[Jimmy Rants]

-Seeker- wrote:

Predestination is a chaotic theory made famous by John Calvin. It is utter foolishness and has no place in any religion. Knowledge of the TRUE essence of our Creator are reserved for those who have an inherent belief, a knowing, that we decend from an ancient, all powerful Source. For all others, it is a mystery, its hidden from them, and they cannot understand for they haven't the knowledge that we have. Because of this stubborn persistence to simply accept the obvious, very few are being given true understanding in this age. Because most have assumed that they understand God's purpose,(Or whatever you chose to call this awesome deity) they remain totally blind to the great truth of what it is!
Did God actually pre-plan every sin, every act of immorality and every crime that has ever been committed? Is God the author of every war—every act of civil disobedience—every divorce—every suicide—every murder? Did God pre-plan every rape—every act of child abuse—every lie ever told—every time one chooses to cheat on his income taxes? C'mon now! If you have only one brain cell, then you should be able to see the answer to these questions! To me, the easiest way to attempt to explain God's intentions are to liken them to a good parent's intentions. We create these little miracles and want only the very best for them. We instill in them knowledge of right and wrong, good and evil and hope that it guides them thru life the way we intended it too. We don't live their lives for them, we don't make their choices for them and even as much as it hurts us, we let them learn from their own mistakes, to do anything else would make them nothing more than our puppets, robots to do as we instruct them to do. That would negate the purpose of procreation wouldn't it? God have us the intelligence to know the difference and what we do with this knowledge determines our fate. Its just that simple.
And as for the Isaiah 45 verse, it is what it is. Our creator is capable of all these things because He IS all these things. Aren't we, his children made in His image, also capable of all these things?? Can we not make peace or create evil? My beliefs are that this most ancient source are everything that our human minds can think of and much, much more. It is male and female, good and evil, light and dark, peaceful and vengeful. To those who scoff at this most powerful and ancient of Beings, it is nothing more than a issue of ego. They cannot accept that there is something grander, or more powerful than they themselves are. Their over inflated ego's won't allow them to acknowledge this and so they persist in blind persuit of some explanation for it. As I said, because of their blindness, the mysteries are hidden from them, they possess no knowledge that the rest of us possess and no amount of explanation from any of us will open their eyes to this truth. Its like banging your head against the wall, painful and useless.

We all have to remember one thing here. God is only a theory as well. S/he's not a proven fact. Christians assume s/he is real, when we truly do not know. Just another theory in man's limited thinking brain.

[Hillbilly in the Swamps]

Speaking of Pre-destination, in studying my ancestors I found out that on my fathers's side some of my ggggrandfathers adhered to this doctrine. As a matter of fact my gggggrandfather's tombstone stated "A member of the Regular Baptist, He didn't believe in Missions of any kind." I was like whoa. I was very sad to read this as my opinion is if there is no chance that you can turn your life around because you are not the "elected" what's the point of existing? In my opinion the Bible story of Jesus on the cross with the thief beside him and the thief begging for forgiveness and Jesus stating "Today you will be with me in paradise" rules this Predestination theory out. I still get a church bulletin from West Tennessee from cousins and they still believe this today. I guess they think I am one of the elect and just need to be sanctified! I enjoy the bulletin though, as it helps me learn about other doctrines even though I don't agree with ninety percent of it.

[-Seeker-]

Jimmy Rants wrote:

<quoted text>
Then according to what you explained, he would not be almighty.
To be almighty, he would have to know everything, and if he knew everything beforehand, and the bible clearly teaches he knows everything, always has, always will...then you were born to play out his game since knows your final fate.(This is exactly why I cannot buy into this way of unrational thinking.....but that is me.)
God knows what you are going to do before you do it...cause he always knew everything.
It just can't be both ways.
Either God knows all, or he doesn't, and if he doesn't, then he is not almighty, and if that is the case, the bible is very wrong.
Ya know, I guess it's kinda like what the guy said last night....it's whatever you want it to be, and also for me.
It is something to think about.

There is a difference is Almighty and manipulator. Almighty simply means ruler of all, capable of doing everything. No where in the Bible or any other religious text that I've read, does it state that He will manipulate your actions nor does it say He makes decisions for us. He gave us a wonderous world to live in, bodies so complex and genius that we are continually surprised by it's capabilities. What else does He owe us?? A continual show of power? Were I almighty, I would simply laugh at that. Really laugh. For every one person who scoffs, 50 others have a belief in something bigger than themselves. I'd say He's pretty good with those odds.

[Tony Griffey]

For many people of various faiths, support for the scientific theory of evolution has not supplanted their religious belief. And throughout the modern Judeo-Christan tradition, leaders have asserted that evolutionary science offers a valid perspective on the natural world. They say that evolution is consistent with religious doctrine and complements, rather than conflicts with religion.

[Jimmy Rants]

-Seeker- wrote:

<quoted text>
There is a difference is Almighty and manipulator. Almighty simply means ruler of all, capable of doing everything. No where in the Bible or any other religious text that I've read, does it state that He will manipulate your actions nor does it say He makes decisions for us. He gave us a wonderous world to live in, bodies so complex and genius that we are continually surprised by it's capabilities. What else does He owe us?? A continual show of power? Were I almighty, I would simply laugh at that. Really laugh. For every one person who scoffs, 50 others have a belief in something bigger than themselves. I'd say He's pretty good with those odds.

Either s/he knows all things, or s/he doesn't.

We cannot even prove there is a s/HE up there, or wherever to begin with.

It's pure faith driven,(wishful thinking), and not fact.

If that is your belief, fine, enjoy it, embrace it. I need more than faith however.

It's really easy to scoff at something that refuses to show himself as a almighty god to the world.

If god knew all things and knew your final outcome beforehand, how can you call it any other thing than a manipulated? No matter what you try or do on earth, god knows your end faith. You're either doomed out of the gate, or blessed, and there is no in between. He is not going to change his will for you.

You just accept there is a god, I don't.

I am an agnostic; I do not pretend to know what many ignorant men are sure of.

[Tessa]

-Seeker- wrote:

Predestination is a chaotic theory made famous by John Calvin. It is utter foolishness and has no place in any religion. Knowledge of the TRUE essence of our Creator are reserved for those who have an inherent belief, a knowing, that we decend from an ancient, all powerful Source. For all others, it is a mystery, its hidden from them, and they cannot understand for they haven't the knowledge that we have. Because of this stubborn persistence to simply accept the obvious, very few are being given true understanding in this age. Because most have assumed that they understand God's purpose,(Or whatever you chose to call this awesome deity) they remain totally blind to the great truth of what it is!
Did God actually pre-plan every sin, every act of immorality and every crime that has ever been committed? Is God the author of every war—every act of civil disobedience—every divorce—every suicide—every murder? Did God pre-plan every rape—every act of child abuse—every lie ever told—every time one chooses to cheat on his income taxes? C'mon now! If you have only one brain cell, then you should be able to see the answer to these questions! To me, the easiest way to attempt to explain God's intentions are to liken them to a good parent's intentions. We create these little miracles and want only the very best for them. We instill in them knowledge of right and wrong, good and evil and hope that it guides them thru life the way we intended it too. We don't live their lives for them, we don't make their choices for them and even as much as it hurts us, we let them learn from their own mistakes, to do anything else would make them nothing more than our puppets, robots to do as we instruct them to do. That would negate the purpose of procreation wouldn't it? God have us the intelligence to know the difference and what we do with this knowledge determines our fate. Its just that simple.
And as for the Isaiah 45 verse, it is what it is. Our creator is capable of all these things because He IS all these things. Aren't we, his children made in His image, also capable of all these things?? Can we not make peace or create evil? My beliefs are that this most ancient source are everything that our human minds can think of and much, much more. It is male and female, good and evil, light and dark, peaceful and vengeful. To those who scoff at this most powerful and ancient of Beings, it is nothing more than a issue of ego. They cannot accept that there is something grander, or more powerful than they themselves are. Their over inflated ego's won't allow them to acknowledge this and so they persist in blind persuit of some explanation for it. As I said, because of their blindness, the mysteries are hidden from them, they possess no knowledge that the rest of us possess and no amount of explanation from any of us will open their eyes to this truth. Its like banging your head against the wall, painful and useless.

seeker, you've done it again. good job! I always enjoy reading what you write.

[-Seeker-]

Jimmy Rants wrote:

<quoted text>
Either s/he knows all things, or s/he doesn't.
We cannot even prove there is a s/HE up there, or wherever to begin with.
It's pure faith driven,(wishful thinking), and not fact.
If that is your belief, fine, enjoy it, embrace it. I need more than faith however.
It's really easy to scoff at something that refuses to show himself as a almighty god to the world.
If god knew all things and knew your final outcome beforehand, how can you call it any other thing than a manipulated? No matter what you try or do on earth, god knows your end faith. You're either doomed out of the gate, or blessed, and there is no in between. He is not going to change his will for you.
You just accept there is a god, I don't.
I am an agnostic; I do not pretend to know what many ignorant men are sure of.

Well, for one thing, you can't disprove it either so you can't just say He doesn't exist and call that a fact. And I don't believe that God knows our every move before we make it. I think we surprise Him as well as ourselves at times. I think that's why we have so many choices to make in life, options. To say that someone is born to live unfulfilled is nonsense. Its why I said that people who don't have this inherent knowledge, God is a mystery to them. Its why you don't understand Jim. You don't possess the knowledge of the mysteries of the very power who created you. Your mind is totally closed off to it and you will never come into it until you fully realize that spirituality can never be found in science. Not the deeper parts of it. The essential core of it. You can hunt thru 10 lifetimes and you'll never find the answers to it until you go to the source of it all. Faith is not for the ignorant Jim. Its what landed the first man on the moon, built the first airplane, etc. Faith that it could be done started it all. Science merely gave them the means to make it happen. You talk about evolving but you are not doing that. You are staying frozen in a steel cage mindset. Science will never be able to explain what the spiritual person already knows. Not anymore than you can touch a rainbow. I hope someday you come into your spirituality but I have little hope that you will if you continue to look in the places that you are looking now.

[-Seeker-]

Tessa wrote:

<quoted text>
seeker, you've done it again. good job! I always enjoy reading what you write.

Thank you Tessa! And ditto! I always love and agree with what you post too!

[Kanno]

Seek I think we should all be free and entitled to our own interpretations of this existence. Regardless Regardless of what that is. This debate is as old as man is and will never die.

[Jimmy Rants]

-Seeker- wrote:

<quoted text>
Well, for one thing, you can't disprove it either so you can't just say He doesn't exist and call that a fact. And I don't believe that God knows our every move before we make it. I think we surprise Him as well as ourselves at times. I think that's why we have so many choices to make in life, options. To say that someone is born to live unfulfilled is nonsense. Its why I said that people who don't have this inherent knowledge, God is a mystery to them. Its why you don't understand Jim. You don't possess the knowledge of the mysteries of the very power who created you. Your mind is totally closed off to it and you will never come into it until you fully realize that spirituality can never be found in science. Not the deeper parts of it. The essential core of it. You can hunt thru 10 lifetimes and you'll never find the answers to it until you go to the source of it all. Faith is not for the ignorant Jim. Its what landed the first man on the moon, built the first airplane, etc. Faith that it could be done started it all. Science merely gave them the means to make it happen. You talk about evolving but you are not doing that. You are staying frozen in a steel cage mindset. Science will never be able to explain what the spiritual person already knows. Not anymore than you can touch a rainbow. I hope someday you come into your spirituality but I have little hope that you will if you continue to look in the places that you are looking now.

Since I cannot disprove, nor prove god, this is exactly what makes me an agnostic. Now I can disprove the bible as the inspired word of god easily through history. It's a good book, but not the only book.

It was faith/hope that landed men on the moon yes, but it was backed with science, math and high tech engineering that could prove a visible result. Your god theory has failed to do that. Why does he hide?? Fair question.

Faith is not proof of anything, other than hope. I do not care if people have faith in this "Sky Daddy," or not, but I know better.

I have traveled down the CHURCHanity road long ago, it taught me this is the way NOT the path for me to follow.

Again, faith is hope, or wishful thinking, but does not always produce a positive, pure result of clear understanding, or the clear, cold, light of reason.

[___shark___]

-Seeker- wrote:

<quoted text>
Well, for one thing, you can't disprove it either so you can't just say He doesn't exist and call that a fact. And I don't believe that God knows our every move before we make it. I think we surprise Him as well as ourselves at times. I think that's why we have so many choices to make in life, options. To say that someone is born to live unfulfilled is nonsense. Its why I said that people who don't have this inherent knowledge, God is a mystery to them. Its why you don't understand Jim. You don't possess the knowledge of the mysteries of the very power who created you. Your mind is totally closed off to it and you will never come into it until you fully realize that spirituality can never be found in science. Not the deeper parts of it. The essential core of it. You can hunt thru 10 lifetimes and you'll never find the answers to it until you go to the source of it all. Faith is not for the ignorant Jim. Its what landed the first man on the moon, built the first airplane, etc. Faith that it could be done started it all. Science merely gave them the means to make it happen. You talk about evolving but you are not doing that. You are staying frozen in a steel cage mindset. Science will never be able to explain what the spiritual person already knows. Not anymore than you can touch a rainbow. I hope someday you come into your spirituality but I have little hope that you will if you continue to look in the places that you are looking now.

Wonderful post once again!!!

[___shark___]

Jimmy Rants wrote:

<quoted text>
Since I cannot disprove, nor prove god, this is exactly what makes me an agnostic. Now I can disprove the bible as the inspired word of god easily through history. It's a good book, but not the only book.
It was faith/hope that landed men on the moon yes, but it was backed with science, math and high tech engineering that could prove a visible result. Your god theory has failed to do that. Why does he hide?? Fair question.
Faith is not proof of anything, other than hope. I do not care if people have faith in this "Sky Daddy," or not, but I know better.
I have traveled down the CHURCHanity road long ago, it taught me this is the way NOT the path for me to follow.
Again, faith is hope, or wishful thinking, but does not always produce a positive, pure result of clear understanding, or the clear, cold, light of reason.

You can't "disprove that the Bible is the inspired word of God." You CAN research history and find other similar books or different versions or whatever(and that's ok), but you CANNOT "prove" that God did not inspire Paul, John, etc. to write the words of the Bible because you weren't there when it happened. Just wanted to point that out.

Jim, if you do believe in a "Source" or higher "Being" or something, which you have said that you do- just that it isn't the God WE talk about- then why doesn't THAT "Source" show himself or make it known? Know what I mean? I think mostly that my point here is that for whatever you believe, which you have only laid out in tiny, incomplete bits and pieces, you have no proof of it, either. So then I wonder why you believe this way.

[Jimmy Rants]

___shark___ wrote:

<quoted text>
You can't "disprove that the Bible is the inspired word of God." You CAN research history and find other similar books or different versions or whatever(and that's ok), but you CANNOT "prove" that God did not inspire Paul, John, etc. to write the words of the Bible because you weren't there when it happened. Just wanted to point that out.
Jim, if you do believe in a "Source" or higher "Being" or something, which you have said that you do- just that it isn't the God WE talk about- then why doesn't THAT "Source" show himself or make it known? Know what I mean? I think mostly that my point here is that for whatever you believe, which you have only laid out in tiny, incomplete bits and pieces, you have no proof of it, either. So then I wonder why you believe this way.

Can anyone show me here where the bible makes the claim to be the inerrant word of God? That is not scriptural.

Oh, yes, it can be proved the bible is a copy, or a plagiarized piece of work, stolen/borrowed from much older ancient cultures other than Christianity. Christianity is one of the last religions on this planet, not the first. Islam is the youngest, following Christianity.

I say, I believe in an originating cause of all that is, but not in the form of a Zeus look alike.

That source can be in the form of evolution/change.

It's is impossible for me to share what I have studied for over 35 years in here to people that still believe in a snake, shrubbery and a donkey that speaks, or food falling out of the sky, rivers turning into blood, and other nonsensical ways of mythological thinking.

We cannot prove there was a Matthew, Mark, Luke and John...nor a Paul either. Their biblical stories are so similar to other, much older holy books, that doubt has to come into play to the aspirant.

I know you will disagree, and that is fine. I did to at one time in my life...but not all of us ride on the same truck of thinking, and we do have proof to back our claim.

I'll share one thing with you as to what I believe. I believe we are ALL wrong. What I think today, maybe be replaced with a higher understanding tomorrow.

I'm just sharing with you, not fighting, as it may appear.

[King Dude]

-Seeker- wrote:

<quoted text>
How do we know what the world was like when He first created it? Before we messed it up? We don't. Therefore we can't judge God by the world we live in. Or even by the earliest accounts of what we know of the earth. I'd say it was pretty dern perfect considering it has sustained life for millions of years despite what we have done to it, wouldn't you?

I agree 100%.

[-Seeker-]

Jim,
I'm going to say this on this subject and then I'm going to try to stop posting on this thread! First of all, I'm not a traditional Christian, but I was for about 25 years and these are only my opinions so if I offend anyone, I'm sorry.
I don't believe the Bible is in any way the inerrant word of God. It was written by men inspired by God, but most certainly not by God himself, so therefore it can't be the inerrant word of God. And the church was not founded on the Bible, but rather created the Bible by authorizing some of the church's writings as its New Testament and by reaffirming the books of the Septuagint (in a reordered form) as its Old Testament. The first century church, therefore, began without the Bible as we know it. The gospel was proclaimed before written gospels existed and before Paul's letters were accepted in the church as "scripture." There is nothing in the Bible about scripture being literally true, or infallible or inerrant. To me, it is in essence a guidebook, a history book left to us by some very inspired and religious men. But not the literal word of God, nor the end all of the story.
Christianity is based on Jesus Christ, of whom there's mountains of evidence for the historical life of a man named Jesus of Nazareth. In particular, there were a number of writers in ancient Rome and Israel, who lived at the same time as Jesus or shortly thereafter, who wrote on his controversy while it was first going on. I won't go through all of them, but here are a few. The most famous of these writers is Flavius Josephus, a historian who lived in Christ's time. He wrote this, "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him." Now this man is a famous and validated historian whose works have never, ever been doubted in the thousands of years they've been around.
Another ancient historian was Cornelius Tacitus. In his Annals, he wrote, "Christus, the founder of the name [Christians], was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius." Annals xv.44.
And there are thousands more references to Christ in the Nag Hammandi library, personal correspondence that survive from Christ's time, Dead Sea Scrolls, etc. And since the religion of Christianity was not formed based on the Bible, proving that its writers existed is really not important in the bigger scope of things. Nor is proving that the Bible is word for word from God. In fact, sometimes I think the Bible has done more harm to Christianity than good. It has caused more arguements and bloodshed over thousands of years than any other book ever written. The pure, central core of Christianity should be Christ. But that gets muddled up in all the who's right, who's wrong controversy over the Bible.What is really important is that Christ cannot be dissproven. And he cannot.

[___shark___]

Jimmy Rants wrote:

<quoted text>
It's is impossible for me to share what I have studied for over 35 years in here to people that still believe in a snake, shrubbery and a donkey that speaks, or food falling out of the sky, rivers turning into blood, and other nonsensical ways of mythological thinking.

Right. Back to insulting, I see. I appreciate your conversation and I can appreciate your different views. But you can't do the same. So I'm going to stop now.