Mormons: We are Christians, too

Mormons: We are Christians, too

There are 28890 comments on the Salt Lake Tribune story from Apr 2, 2007, titled Mormons: We are Christians, too. In it, Salt Lake Tribune reports that:

“Each was a distinct personality.”

President Gordon B. Hinckley addresses the audience in the afternoon session and then strolls off stage. via Salt Lake Tribune

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Salt Lake Tribune.

Haw Haw

Chicago, IL

#29902 May 5, 2012
--continued--

Argument 4: The Test

Of the two groups comprising the only viable candidates for heaven, only nontheists recognize or admit that this evidence strongly implies that God must be evil or not exist. Therefore, only nontheists answer the test as predicted for morally good persons. That is, a morally good person will be intellectually and critically responsible about having true beliefs, and will place this commitment to moral good above all other concerns, especially those that can corrupt or compromise moral goodness, like faith or loyalty. So those who are genuinely worthy of heaven will very probably become nontheists, since their inquiry will be responsible and therefore complete, and will place moral concerns above all others. They will then encounter the undeniable facts of all these unexplained evils (in the bible and in the world) and conclude that God must probably be evil or nonexistent.

In other words, to accept such evils without being given a justification (as is entailed by god's silence) indicates an insufficient concern for having true beliefs. But to have the courage to maintain unbelief in the face of threats of hell or destruction, as well as numerous forms of social pressure and other hostile factors, is exactly the behavior a god would expect from the genuinely good, rather than capitulation to the will of an evil being, or naive and unjustified trust that an apparently evil being is really good--those are not behaviors of the genuinely good.

Therefore only intellectually committed but critical nontheists are genuinely good and will go to heaven. Therefore, if a god exists, his silence and allowance of evil (in the world and the bible) are explained and justified by his plan to discover the only sorts of people who deserve to populate heaven: sincere nontheists. And this makes perfect sense of many mysteries, thus explaining what theists struggle to explain themselves.

God's hiddenness is necessary on this account, since his presence would inspire people to behave as if good out of fear or selfish interests, not out of courage or compassion or a sense of personal integrity.

A false, evil image of God in the bible is necessary in order to test whether the reader will place morality or faith first, so this tests moral courage in the face of assertions, threats and promises of reward. It also tests cognitive trustworthiness, since it is wrong to trust what someone merely wrote, over scientifically established truths and the direct evidence of reason and the senses.

Natural evils and unchecked human evils are also necessary on this account, since only in such a way can a god "demonstrate" that no moral power is behind the universe, that there is no custodian, and by that means lead a rational, compassionate observer to conclude there is no god. If the universe were well-ordered, with inherent moral enforcement and the containment or restriction of evils, observers would conclude there is a god and thus, again, might act as if good out of fear or hope of reward.
The only way to truly test human beings is to see if we will become nontheists after serious and sincere inquiry into these matters: to see if we have the courage and fortitude to choose morality over faith or loyalty, and be good without fear or hope of divine reward. No other test will ensure a result of the genuinely good being self-selected into a predictable belief-state that can be observed in secret by god.

Conclusion

Since this easily and comprehensively explains all the unexplainable problems of god (like divine hiddenness and apparent evil), while other theologies do not (or at least nowhere so well), it follows that this analysis is probably a better explanation of all the available evidence than any contrary theology. Since this conclusion contradicts the conclusion of every form of Pascal's Wager, it follows that Pascal's Wager cannot assure anyone of God's existence or that belief in God will be the best bet.

END

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#29903 May 5, 2012
Boy, heehaw, you've got a LOT of faith in your belief. A LOT.
Haw Haw

Chicago, IL

#29904 May 5, 2012
RhinocerosTap wrote:
Boy, heehaw, you've got a LOT of faith in your belief. A LOT.
It was a rebuttal of Pascal's wager, not a statement of belief. Sorry you missed that.

Since: Nov 10

Vernal, UT

#29905 May 6, 2012
The morm kids were out going door to door demanding the morm tax today. Gotta' love a religion that sends kids out to collect for them......
Grace

Flushing, NY

#29906 May 7, 2012
From the NY Post, May 6, 2012

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolu...
RachelEClarens

Belgium

#29907 May 8, 2012
Haw Haw wrote:
<quoted text>
Pascal's Wager... how pathetic.
Come up with something better than this tired old crap.
You have everything to lose in life if you become a mormon. Starting with 10% of your gross and more.
well come up yourself with something better !! because for now, I can say that you and your fellows that are against LDS members have only been saying the same things over and over again, attacking the same points, using the same arguments.
Haw Haw

Chicago, IL

#29908 May 9, 2012
RachelEClarens wrote:
<quoted text>
well come up yourself with something better !! because for now, I can say that you and your fellows that are against LDS members have only been saying the same things over and over again, attacking the same points, using the same arguments.
LOL you must be blind. Did you even SEE the rebuttal I posted to your silly Pascal's Wager argument, let alone READ it, let alone UNDERSTAND it. I didn't think so.

Baaaaaa Baaaaaa Baaaaaa go the sheep.
Grace

Flushing, NY

#29909 May 16, 2012
Did you know that when a Mason passes away, they say that he has departed into the Celestial Lodge.

Excerpts from the Masonic Library, Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons, State of New York 71 West 23rd Street, NY, NY:

"Dissension between brothers goes against the Principles of the Order and the obligations taken by them. Brothers are supposed to be Brothers and extend Brotherly Love to one another. Resolution of conflict allows Brothers to focus their efforts and to build, rather than destroying themselves and, all to frequently, those about them. Hiram and his three Brothers, Cain and Abel, and many others should be reminders of the waste of conflict.

There is the need for the individual peace found in building King Solomon's Temple. The matters of conscience, mutual respect, and moral conduct are the keys to happiness, and it is here that the passions truly are circumscribed, and building stones are placed. It is withing the individual that true peace begins and Masonic truth can be pursued."

I thought this was interesting.
you know it

Houston, TX

#29911 Jun 30, 2012
OPEN MIND OPEN HEART, do right live by the 10 commandments, be a good person treat people right and know only god can judge your just as good as someone that wears garments.

Religious arguments are very overrated noone will ever see eye to eye so save your breath.
I was LDS and I found more flaws in the religion more from the people that I went to church with the church is perfect like most churches but the people are another story

“The Pleasure is all MINE”

Since: Aug 08

Location hidden

#29912 Jul 17, 2012
Copying someone's name is not a form of flattery.

Get your own name, son.

And they didn't worship white people as gods. They simply identified white with deity. Not white "skin" not a Caucasian European.
Osirica wrote:
Your first comment, Smith wrote in that passage from Isaiah, so how can you say "there is now ay Joe. S. could know".
Secondly, What evidence do you have that any native americans were worshipping Columbus as Jesus? Where in the world do you get this fabrication from?
And why are you so pulled into the "Native Americans worship white men as gods" mentality? It's not validation.
When Lewis and Clark went across America along with York, their slave. The Native Americans kept worshipping YORK, the black slave, because for them he was their god. But do you see anyone in here saying "oh yes, that's proof of some divine proof of anything"> Of course not. Especially for you white skin obsessed maniacs. You couldn't possibly fit that concept into your brainwashed minds.
<quoted text>

“"Not all who wander are lost."”

Since: Mar 10

[email protected]

#29913 Jul 27, 2012
I would add to Haw Haw's posting of Kimball's irrefutable explanation the seriously flawed presumption by those who espouse Pascal's Wager that belief in ANYTHING is volitional. One cannot CHOOSE to believe anything. One can ACT disingenuously as IF they believe, but each of us believes what we believe as the sum of each or our unique life experiences. Pascal's Wager seems to imply that "God" will welcome anyone into Heaven who dishonestly goes through the motions of believing, even when they are UNABLE to believe.

Also, as RachelEC wrote:
<quoted text>
well it's better to live as though there is a God because if you do, you've got nothing to lose !

...another flawed presumption is that those who are unable to believe in "God" would necessarily live and behave differently - immorally - without genuine belief in "God". That's just as absurd.

Since: Feb 10

Location hidden

#29915 Jan 31, 2014
Hello Rebecca
I'm back.
may the peace be with you and yours.

http://www.topix.com/forum/news/weird/T46QMOF...

Since: Feb 10

Location hidden

#29916 Jan 31, 2014
2012 the last post?
shit ..........there is SOO much more going on.........keep this alive
I love you

Since: Feb 10

Location hidden

#29917 Feb 1, 2014
opps Hannah
Rhyno

Brisbane, Australia

#29918 Feb 11, 2015
I remember this thread starting 7 years ago. It seems to have died off, but still going. 10 pts for commitment, 0 points for progress, lol.
Rhyno

Brisbane, Australia

#29919 Feb 11, 2015
The bible declares that Yeshuah created ALL things. Without whom NOTHING was made: Colossians 1:16 KJV
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him...

So tell me, how did Jesus create the preexistance world into which He was made? Moreover, since Lucifer fits into the category of things Jesus made, how could they possibly be brothers?

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#29920 Feb 12, 2015
Rhyno wrote:
The bible declares that Yeshuah created ALL things. Without whom NOTHING was made: Colossians 1:16 KJV
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him...
So tell me, how did Jesus create the preexistance world into which He was made? Moreover, since Lucifer fits into the category of things Jesus made, how could they possibly be brothers?
When GoD said let US make man in our image...Lucifer (Jesus's other half) which gives ear to the fact there is good and bad in everything even God's creation...Lucifer became jealous & didn't want another creation to worship or love his father more than he did! This enraged God to the point he seperated the light from the dark....and banished Lucifer & the other holy holy holy singing angels that felt the same as him to hell. Each holy holy holy singing angel (even those who stayed in the presence of the Lord is given once to be born in the flesh....too be given a choice of returning to heaven forgiven for all eternity! Lucifer however will never return because he goodness left him to die and replace the sin he forged out of regret!
O be serious

United States

#29921 Feb 13, 2015
No, you're wrong as rain about that, they were worshipping them as GODS

in a lot of the villages they went to along the way.
osirica wrote:
Copying someone's name is not a form of flattery.
Get your own name, son.
And they didn't worship white people as gods. They simply identified white with deity. Not white "skin" not a Caucasian European.
<quoted text>
O be serious

United States

#29922 Feb 13, 2015
it's referring to all you need to know about; the record is long and

went through many eons but if you read the book ever you'll see it comes

from a lot of authors all of whom say the same thing: all that is created that

you will ever have anything to do with was created by him. These revelations

typically were handed to kings or other important men who asked a prophet

to ask god

a specific question.

When the prophet and the king were of that same religion the prophet was

obligated to tell the king the truth often at risk of his life and at times, god

intentionally would give the king or whomever, a message he couldn't read;

or rather WOULDN'T read because he wanted to not be guilty of killing the

prophet but he wouldn't want to let messages of god letting enemies

destroy the countryside because the king was a bad man, get out.

Being a prophet of god and a leader to ANY people is always

fraught with a lot of political back stabbing - which is

EXACTLY how MANY MANY prophets got KILLED.

How can a BAD man and a GOOD man be BROTHERS?

LooooooLooooooLooooooL that's hilarious.
Rhyno wrote:
The bible declares that Yeshuah created ALL things. Without whom NOTHING was made: Colossians 1:16 KJV
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him...
So tell me, how did Jesus create the preexistance world into which He was made? Moreover, since Lucifer fits into the category of things Jesus made, how could they possibly be brothers?
O be serious

United States

#29923 Feb 13, 2015
Yeah but you're doing it on the space age a Mormon gave you.
Haw Haw wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL you must be blind. Did you even SEE the rebuttal I posted to your silly Pascal's Wager argument, let alone READ it, let alone UNDERSTAND it. I didn't think so.
Baaaaaa Baaaaaa Baaaaaa go the sheep.

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