Who says Mormons aren't Christians?

Oct 12, 2011 Full story: CNN 32,002

Editor's note: Dean Obeidallah is an award-winning comedian who has appeared on TV shows such as Comedy Central's "Axis of Evil" special, ABC's "The View," CNN's "What the Week" and HLN's "The Joy Behar Show." He is executive producer of the annual New York Arab-American Comedy Festival and the Amman Stand Up Comedy Festival.

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Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#20604 Feb 23, 2013
concerned in Egypt wrote:
<quoted text>

YES UNBROKEN HISTORY, IT IS A FACT AND DECLARED BY SECULAR UNIVERSITIES AROUND THE WORLD. CHRISTIANS HAVE BEEN PRACTICING CHRISTIANITY IN THE SAME FORM SINCE ITS INCEPTION IN 33AD OR PENTECOST TAKE YOUR PICK. AGAIN NO ONE EXCEPT LDS DOUBTS THIS.
Practicing the same form since its inception?
-What about selling indulgences? Was Christ telling people they could sin if they gave him money?
-Did Christ get baptized, was he baptized by immersion or sprinkling? Christian churches all over debate whether baptism is essential. How can you claim Christianity has been the same when churches today can not agree on what is necessary for salvation?
-Have holy rights, holy water, and prayer beads always had a place in Christianity?
-Has all of Christianity always thought that devotion is best expressed in the confines of a secluded society?(as monks or nuns)

The very question of if and how Christianity had changed is what brought the great reformers like Martin Luther to take a stand against the prevailing religious institutions of their time. Of course Christianity has changed and is being practiced in varying forms through out much of the world.

I once met a pastor and a deacon of the same Baptist Church who thought differently on the matter of Baptism. The Pastor of the BAPTIST church felt that Baptism wasn't necessary while the Deacon felt that it was absolutely necessary to have baptism by immersion. Forms are being debated and changed. Much of Christianity is different than it was 2000 years ago.

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#20605 Feb 23, 2013
concerned in Egypt wrote:
<quoted text>
YOU STATE JESUS IS THE ONLY ONE BEGOTTEN IN THE FLESH THAT IS YOUR CONCLUSION BUT IF WE ARE TO TAKE YOUR ILLOGICAL TO ITS NATURAL CONCLUSION THAN FATHER GOD IS SPIRIT AND HAS NO FLESH AS YOU CLAIM BECAUSE YOU CLAIM ONLY JESUS WAS BEGOTTEN IN THE FLESH, AND THEN WAS I NOT A SPIRIT IN PREEXISTENCE AS LDS TEACH WAS I NOT BEGOTTEN IN THE FLESH SO CLEARLY YOU HAVE NOT THOUGHT THIS TROUGH AND ONCE AGAIN ARE REFERRING TO SOME LDS GUIDELINE BOOK THAT YOU HAVE NEVER TESTED AS YOU HAVE CONTRADICTED YOURSELF AND LDS DOCTRINE.
My apologies, I don't mean to become the "grammar" police here, but your posts would be much easier to read if you included some more punctuation. All of the quoted text above has only one period. It would be much easier if you signified the end of one thought and the beginning of another with a period.

My statement was completely logical. All of us were spiritually created by the Father hence, His spiritual children. Christ was the only one to be both spiritually created and physically created. Physical creation is indicated by "begotten."

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#20606 Feb 23, 2013
concerned in Egypt wrote:
<quoted text>
Again until you have studied Christian church history beyond your LDS propaganda Sunday school and evening/morning classes where some one spoon feeds you a story that you never actually go out and independently verified you are at the least a naked babe in the woods.
What I cut out as spam above is you ranting about something that you admittedly have never studied.
I am an Electrical Eng. I would not with out studying Chemically engineering in a degree program then working in the field for some time engage in a discussion where I told those who have studied and worked as a chemical engineer for years how to they should build a chemical storage facilitate and rebuke them after only reading cliff notes.
Yet you are trying to do that with 2000 years of Christian history.
Truth Matters go study to show yourself approved first then get back to me.
Sorry I was vague about my study of Church history. I wouldn't consider my self an expert or exceptionally well acquainted with the matter of church history, but I like to think I know more than most.

In middle school my history class covered about 1000 years of church history.(from about 900 AD to 1900) I spent 4 years studying church history in high school and one year studying world religions. Two of those years studying church history were in the Old and New Testaments.

At the university level I have taken six semesters of scripture and church history classes. You can't talk about scripture with out talking about church history. I'm no expert, but I have committed a fair amount of time to become acquainted with church history and what I believe.( To clarify, I only took one scripture or church history class each of those 6 semesters)

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#20607 Feb 23, 2013
concerned in Egypt wrote:
<quoted text>

I am an Electrical Eng. I would not with out studying Chemically engineering in a degree program then working in the field for some time engage in a discussion where I told those who have studied and worked as a chemical engineer for years how to they should build a chemical storage facilitate and rebuke them after only reading cliff notes.
An electrical engineer? Great! We have something in common, we both like math. I'm an accountant. Of course, the math you deal with is a lot more complicated than what I deal with.

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#20608 Feb 23, 2013
concerned in Egypt wrote:
<quoted text>
So then lets take a test I found online at http://www.mrm.org/knowledge-test
In 1841 Joseph Smith declared that the Book of Mormon was "the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts than by any other book" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 194).
In light of such a fantastic claim, it behooves an individual to take a serious look at the precepts found in the Book of Mormon. Take a few moments and test your knowledge of what Joseph Smith also called the "most correct book of earth."
1._______ Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that Elohim (God the Father in Mormonism) was once a mortal man and that he was not always God?
2._______ Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that God has a body of flesh and bones?
3._______ Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that God is married in heaven?
4._______ Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that men can become Gods?
5._______ Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that temple participation is necessary to become exalted?
6._______ Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach Jesus and Lucifer are brothers?
7._______ Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach the blood of Christ does not cleanse certain sins?
8._______ Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that a person can lose his salvation if he is not baptized on behalf of dead relatives?
9._______ Where in the Book of Mormon does it say there is more than one God?
10._______ Where in the Book of Mormon does it say males must hold either the Aaronic or Melchizedek Priesthood?
11._______ Where in the Book of Mormon does it say you can't drink coffee or tea?
12._______ Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that there are "three degrees of glory"?
13._______ Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that the Holy Ghost is a son of God just as Jesus is a son of God?
14.______ Where in the Book of Mormon does it say that God allowed the Nephites to practice polygamy?
15._______ Where in the Book of Mormon does it say that if a man wishes to be saved he must have a woman by his side?
16._______ Where in the Book of Mormon does it say that faithful members must wear sacred undergarments that have the power to protect them?
17._______ Where in the Book of Mormon does it say that official church doctrine must be voted on by the general membership?
18._______ Where in the Book of Mormon does it say that the Black race (seed of Cain) survived the flood because the devil needed a representation on earth?
19._______ Where in the Book of Mormon does it say that God is the offspring of another God who, in turn, is the offspring of still another God, etc.?
20._______ Where in the Book of Mormon does it teach that the highest level within the celestial kingdom is the "Church of the Firstborn"?
First, I think the burden is on you to establish that what you have posted above is ACTUALLY Mormon doctrine found in church published materials. Why would I want to engage in a wild goose chase in the Book of Mormon for things that are not really Mormon doctrine at all? If you want to play this game, give me church published sources and quotes for all of the above listed concepts. Several of the questions are poorly worded and don't represent actual church doctrine.

-I'll only take church published sources. If it wasn't published by the church, it wasn't said by the church as a whole, and therefore is not doctrine. A great place to start is lds.org

Good luck!

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#20609 Feb 23, 2013
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
I've proven and it pisses you off. You have yet to prove with even one statement what you claim Mormonism teaches. So keep BSing, you're full of crap.
That is interesting, coming from the person who claimed that you couldn't get soda at BYU, a school where a variety of soda is available at most eating venues on campus.

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#20610 Feb 23, 2013
concerned in Egypt wrote:
<quoted text>
all righty then lets take a look at some of J.S. not so finer moments.
No let's not. Let's address you call yourself a Christian and you prove your a liar. You make a lie not caring that it's a lie. When you're showed how you lie, you say nothing. That shows you have not a care about lying if that is what it takes to make a point.
And you call your self a Christian? Christians avoid purposeful out right lies. You lied saying Smith said he did more than was greater than Jesus. You lied about how long I have been on Topix. You lied saying I said I had been a RCC. You lied saying you ousted me in another thread.
All you're proving is you have a morbid will to make out right pathetic lies and for what purpose? What purpose are these out right lies serving you? Do they make you a better Christian? Is that your personal definition of a Christian? That a good liar like you makes a good Christian?
Piece of wisdom adults use to teach their kids long ago you should consider; if you're about to tell a lie, shut your mouth and say nothing. It's better to say nothing than to say a lie.

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#20611 Feb 23, 2013
Sambrotherofnephi wrote:
<quoted text>
That is interesting, coming from the person who claimed that you couldn't get soda at BYU, a school where a variety of soda is available at most eating venues on campus.
Dana likes to make claims whether they are true or not. If he would come back and say he was incorrect that would be nice but Dana is short of apologies.
He also claimed wine was never made from water. Even after I sent him information that the home made wine industry uses water for their wines and that it was a huge industry, he wouldn't concede he was incorrect. Instead he said he was talking about manufactured wines that used fruit, something he didn't state in his initial statement.

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#20612 Feb 23, 2013
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
But this can't be true, No Surprise says the LDS church has never taught that!(Yet he can't proved any evidence for what he claims they do teach) Pathetic!
You should go back and read my initial post concerning what I actually stated debate coward :)
concerned in Egypt

Aberdeen, UK

#20614 Feb 23, 2013
Sambrotherofnephi wrote:
<quoted text>
First, I think the burden is on you to establish that what you have posted above is ACTUALLY Mormon doctrine found in church published materials. Why would I want to engage in a wild goose chase in the Book of Mormon for things that are not really Mormon doctrine at all? If you want to play this game, give me church published sources and quotes for all of the above listed concepts. Several of the questions are poorly worded and don't represent actual church doctrine.
-I'll only take church published sources. If it wasn't published by the church, it wasn't said by the church as a whole, and therefore is not doctrine. A great place to start is lds.org
Good luck!
So for you it does not matter what J.S. and B.Y. taught on Sunday's as declared prophets and leaders of a new Sect.

How about you just go through the list be honest tell the thread what statements you do believe and then I will just deal with the ones you say you and LDS don't believe.

Again please stop greasing the pig, please be forth right and declare your beliefs.

ARE you ashamed of what you believe?

Is that why you play this game of I won't tell you what I believe unless you can show me what I believe?

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#20615 Feb 23, 2013
Sambrotherofnephi wrote:
<quoted text>
That is interesting, coming from the person who claimed that you couldn't get soda at BYU, a school where a variety of soda is available at most eating venues on campus.
Another Mormon with reading comprehension problems. I said one time that you couldn't get a soda with caffeine in it. Posted a newspaper article about students who are wanting them brought in.

Here's another one: http://www.abc4.com/content/news/watercooler/... proving I was right.

Some more: http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/54875621-78...

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-09-17...

Here is a report about Mormon Stormtroopers stopping the students from passing out cola's: http://universe.byu.edu/beta/2012/09/14/caffe...

All proof I was very much telling the truth.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#20616 Feb 23, 2013
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
You should go back and read my initial post concerning what I actually stated debate coward :)
You should actually give some evidence that what I'm saying is wrong instead of throwing hissy fits and out & out lying.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#20617 Feb 23, 2013
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
Dana likes to make claims whether they are true or not. If he would come back and say he was incorrect that would be nice but Dana is short of apologies.
He also claimed wine was never made from water. Even after I sent him information that the home made wine industry uses water for their wines and that it was a huge industry, he wouldn't concede he was incorrect. Instead he said he was talking about manufactured wines that used fruit, something he didn't state in his initial statement.
That is what you consider proof I'm lying about Mormonism? Pathetic.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#20618 Feb 23, 2013
Sambrotherofnephi wrote:
<quoted text>
First, I think the burden is on you to establish that what you have posted above is ACTUALLY Mormon doctrine found in church published materials. Why would I want to engage in a wild goose chase in the Book of Mormon for things that are not really Mormon doctrine at all? If you want to play this game, give me church published sources and quotes for all of the above listed concepts. Several of the questions are poorly worded and don't represent actual church doctrine.
-I'll only take church published sources. If it wasn't published by the church, it wasn't said by the church as a whole, and therefore is not doctrine. A great place to start is lds.org
Good luck!
Denial won't save the Mormon church. I was taught all he posted as a member, as is everyone else.

By your standard the temple endowment ceremony wouldn't be considered LDS teachings because it isn't published by the church.
concerned in Egypt

Aberdeen, UK

#20619 Feb 23, 2013
Sambrotherofnephi wrote:
<quoted text>
Practicing the same form since its inception?
-What about selling indulgences? Was Christ telling people they could sin if they gave him money?
-Did Christ get baptized, was he baptized by immersion or sprinkling? Christian churches all over debate whether baptism is essential. How can you claim Christianity has been the same when churches today can not agree on what is necessary for salvation?
-Have holy rights, holy water, and prayer beads always had a place in Christianity?
-Has all of Christianity always thought that devotion is best expressed in the confines of a secluded society?(as monks or nuns)
The very question of if and how Christianity had changed is what brought the great reformers like Martin Luther to take a stand against the prevailing religious institutions of their time. Of course Christianity has changed and is being practiced in varying forms through out much of the world.
I once met a pastor and a deacon of the same Baptist Church who thought differently on the matter of Baptism. The Pastor of the BAPTIST church felt that Baptism wasn't necessary while the Deacon felt that it was absolutely necessary to have baptism by immersion. Forms are being debated and changed. Much of Christianity is different than it was 2000 years ago.
Again your logic is flawed because one Religious group is practicing an abhorrent teaching does not mean elsewhere in the world Christians did not and keeping the faith. One false practice does not even mean the sect is not Christian but if an essential Christian belief it would make them non-Christian
It does not mean as J.S. And B.Y. claim Christianity ceased to exist with the death of the Apostles.

At the time of Indulgences the GREEK orthodox the Chinese Orthodox the Coptic Christians in Africa all were not practicing Indulgences all were in existence as were Hussites and many other people groups who practiced Christianity as did the 1st Century church.

Because the Word of God never ceased to EXIST because Christianity never ceased to exist Because all the Greek and Hebrew texts were preserved in the Reformers day the Sect practicing indulgences was rebuked and shown their ERROR.

On the same WORD of God that indulgences are rebuked your False LDS sects Doctrines are rebuked.

-baptism for the dead
-temple marriages
-Polytheistic Theism
-BOM is god's word
-holy underwear
-Blood atonement
-Adam God Doctrine
-Blacks were not as Noble in pre-existence as were whites

I could list so many more.
concerned in Egypt

Aberdeen, UK

#20620 Feb 23, 2013
Sambrotherofnephi wrote:
<quoted text>
My apologies, I don't mean to become the "grammar" police here, but your posts would be much easier to read if you included some more punctuation. All of the quoted text above has only one period. It would be much easier if you signified the end of one thought and the beginning of another with a period.
My statement was completely logical. All of us were spiritually created by the Father hence, His spiritual children. Christ was the only one to be both spiritually created and physically created. Physical creation is indicated by "begotten."
You are such a wet noodle I don't mean to be the grammar police but I choose to be..... you can't even say that with out a back door exit if someone should challenge you.

YOUR faith is not faith at all as you have an emergency exit door if anyone should challenge you.

Instead of giving a defense for your faith you run and hide behind it's not in an official LDS publication.

So what if its not.

The Bible never was an officially published anything since when did that become the criteria for what is TRUTH? Since when has that been needed to declare what your FAITH is and your BELIEFS are?

Did Paul ever say to the Bereans hey don' tell me what I believe unless you can find it in a officially published first century Christian book.
NOR did Moses
NOR did any prophet of God.
IF they were prophets of God their word was God's word where they declared it as such.

So we are showing you where B.Y. Taught that ADAM God doctrine was GOD's truth his words during a LDS service, he is a Recognized Prophet of God by LDS but now some 100 years after the fact you say because its not in an official LDS publication it don't count. LOL ROFL another good reason the LDS is a big old CULT.

If you are unable to speak candidly and straightforward for the reasons you believe your Faith is the REAL and true one of God then its not REAL and its not Truth and if you can't agree with that you are of the world and it's Lord the evil one.

Your not one of those accountants that keeps two sets of books are you? Apparently you do with your faith.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#20621 Feb 23, 2013
concerned in Egypt wrote:
<quoted text>
You are such a wet noodle I don't mean to be the grammar police but I choose to be..... you can't even say that with out a back door exit if someone should challenge you.
YOUR faith is not faith at all as you have an emergency exit door if anyone should challenge you.
Instead of giving a defense for your faith you run and hide behind it's not in an official LDS publication.
So what if its not.
The Bible never was an officially published anything since when did that become the criteria for what is TRUTH? Since when has that been needed to declare what your FAITH is and your BELIEFS are?
Did Paul ever say to the Bereans hey don' tell me what I believe unless you can find it in a officially published first century Christian book.
NOR did Moses
NOR did any prophet of God.
IF they were prophets of God their word was God's word where they declared it as such.
So we are showing you where B.Y. Taught that ADAM God doctrine was GOD's truth his words during a LDS service, he is a Recognized Prophet of God by LDS but now some 100 years after the fact you say because its not in an official LDS publication it don't count. LOL ROFL another good reason the LDS is a big old CULT.
If you are unable to speak candidly and straightforward for the reasons you believe your Faith is the REAL and true one of God then its not REAL and its not Truth and if you can't agree with that you are of the world and it's Lord the evil one.
Your not one of those accountants that keeps two sets of books are you? Apparently you do with your faith.
Let me add:

From the "14 Fundamentals of Following a Prophet"

Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.

President Wilford Woodruff stated:

“I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of the Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God.”(The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, pp. 212–13.)

President Marion G. Romney tells of this incident which happened to him:

“I remember years ago when I was a bishop I had President Heber J. Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting I drove him home … Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder and said:‘My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.’ Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said,‘But you don’t need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.’”(Conference Report, October 1960, p. 78.)

Sixth: The prophet does not have to say “Thus saith the Lord” to give us scripture.

Sometimes there are those who argue about words. They might say the prophet gave us counsel but that we are not obliged to follow it unless he says it is a commandment. But the Lord says of the Prophet,“Thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you.”(D&C 21:4.)

And speaking of taking counsel from the prophet, in D&C 108:1, the Lord states:

“Verily thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant Lyman: Your sins are forgiven you, because you have obeyed my voice in coming up hither this morning to receive counsel of him whom I have appointed.”

Said Brigham Young,“I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call scripture.”(Journal of Discourses, 13:95.)

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#20622 Feb 23, 2013
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
Dana likes to make claims whether they are true or not.Pathetic.
I said nothing specific about you lying...lol
I really love this post of your's. Know why? You prove for a fact that you don't read for actual content, you read what you interpret something to mean even if it doesn't state your interpretation.
Want and example?
My very first sentence explained my entire post and you totally with purpose to a fault ignorantly missed it.
I stated in the very first sentence...
"Dana likes to make claims whether they are true or not."
Let's past that again so you can read it slowly. Than go bact to that post and you'll see it had no specific reference to 'just Mormonism.'
"Dana likes to make claims whether they are true or not."
You have made claims about non-religious discussions and religious discussions. I was referencing all those different claims when I stated...
"Dana likes to make claims whether they are true or not."
You make a lot of claims and when you're wrong, you never ever have the honesty and or courtesy to say admit it.

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#20623 Feb 23, 2013
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
You should actually give some evidence that what I'm saying is wrong instead of throwing hissy fits and out & out lying.
As usual, you jumped into a conversation without reading to see what had been previously said. In doing that you took out of context what I said and that is normal for you.
So if you wish evidence for a conversation you known nothing about, go back and read about it than make an intelligent reply. Not a tough thing to do :)

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#20624 Feb 23, 2013
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
Let me add:
From the "14 Fundamentals of Following a Prophet"
Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.
Seems to have been quite an accurate prophecy so far for the last 180 years that this church has had prophets. Can you show differently?
The RLDS lost their prophets and have been totally reorganized. Other off shoots of the main church have came and went.
Smith said his church would spread to the four corners of the earth. No church can do any such thing as long as it has corrupt leaders seeking their own gain.
Not a single prophet of this church since Smith has led it to ruin. And no matter what you dislike or hate about these prophets, every single one has helped this church continue to exist and spread across the face of the earth.
Show me another American Christian church began before 1850 by a prophet who's church still exists. Shoot, just give me a list of American Christian religions that were founded before 1840 that exist today with most of the same early doctrines/teachings still in place. Show me American Christian religions that were founded before 1840 that still teach today that homosexual relations aren't the way of the Lord. Show me American Christian religions founded before 1840 that have spread to the four corners of this earth.

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