Who says Mormons aren't Christians?

Who says Mormons aren't Christians?

There are 32072 comments on the CNN story from Oct 12, 2011, titled Who says Mormons aren't Christians?. In it, CNN reports that:

Editor's note: Dean Obeidallah is an award-winning comedian who has appeared on TV shows such as Comedy Central's "Axis of Evil" special, ABC's "The View," CNN's "What the Week" and HLN's "The Joy Behar Show." He is executive producer of the annual New York Arab-American Comedy Festival and the Amman Stand Up Comedy Festival.

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“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#22696 Mar 24, 2013
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
Speaking of what you deem myths, I thought you'd love to hate to read this link. Just some extra proof the eternal marriage belief has been around longer than you or I can even imagine. You're welcome :)
http://behindthewall.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/0...
"Ghost marriage between two dead people is stable and lasts forever," said Zhao Ming, one of Wei Guohua's grandsons. "There is no such thing as divorce."
Well I'm talking about the gospel of Jesus Christ, not Chinese practices.
Jesus said it wasn't true.
I follow Christ, you can follow whatever you want.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#22697 Mar 24, 2013
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
I know you missed this but part of the laws and ordinances is faith. And as Kimball stressed which of course you obviously missed, to repent one needs faith. To have faith one needs to understand how faith works and that faith doesn't work by itself.
But of course you would obviously believe that Mormons don't believe in faith and they don't teach faith and in your ignorant estimation, they probably even teach against faith.
I gave an accurate description of what they claimed:
"We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost."

No editing, nothing removed. No deception.
I'm sure as you grew up around your dad, him being an active member and bishop, as you decided to buck the system and fight not to be part of that church, I'm sure you'll claim your dad was a faithless, godless man and destined for hell even now because he preached against faith and taught faith wasn't needed for salvation. That is your opinion correct?
No, he is destined for hell because he rejected the grace of Jesus Christ and tried to earn his salvation by his own works of righteousness. He rejected Jesus Christ and his atonement when he became LDS.
You just got done trying to show Mormons like your dad a bishopo, teach nothing and speak nothing of faith. That your dad was actually anti-faith and probably taught you never ever to have faith in Jesus because you didn't need faith to have salvation. Those are the irrational points your trying to prove correct?
If that is what you got from my post, you need to learn how to read. The subject wasn't even about my Dad.
But I think you are just trying to divert from the topic again, because you can't deny the facts of it.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#22698 Mar 24, 2013
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
That is your opinion. That isn't actual fact. You don't have a clue what the grace of Christ is or what it is for and why we have it.
Next, missionaries prove your a liar once more.
If Mormon salvation is based on works, why don't Mormon missionaries have converts out doing good deeds every day? When they come to teach a convert young old or crippled, how come they aren't dragging the convert out the door to go do good deeds instead of teaching them the BOM and praying with them and reading the scriptures with them and asking them to strengthen their faith in Jesus to ask if Smith was a prophet and if the LDS church is God's church on earth again? Hmmm???
They do in part. If the perspective convert smokes or drinks, they are forced to give me up before the missionary will even consider baptizing them. That is LDS works of the law. As for dragging the new member anywhere, that is just an ignorant question. That isn't their job or calling. After the person is baptized the member is taught the works that are required by the church in their Sunday meetings. New member men to earn the priesthood, then temple endowments, new member women to get temple endowments and marriage.
That is your claim..."Mormonism salvation based on works system.."
Please explain to us all why Mormon missionaries are doing faith related things for weeks to months by prayer and reading and discussions with a single convert instead of teaching them about works by dragging them out the door to do good deeds?
Again, a childish question, one that is an attempt to avoid the facts. "Milk before meat."
There's a contradiction happening here. Either you're a liar or your confused as usual or Mormons actually do teach faith and grace and works as a single thing to salvation.
And they deny it every time they go to the temple to do works for the dead.

Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#22699 Mar 24, 2013
Sambrotherofnephi wrote:
<quoted text>
Articles of Faith:
3. Explanation: It is THROUGH the atonement of Christ, it was by Christ's grace that we are given access to the atonement of Christ.

But you are saved "by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."
That is not through the grace of Jesus Christ."
We must put ourselves in a position to accept the grace of God, this is by trying to align our will with God's will. Grace DOES play a key role, that is why it is mentioned so often in the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants:
2 Ne. 2:6 "...Messiah is full of grace and truth..."
2 Ne 9:8 "O the wisdom of God, his mercy and grace...."
2 Ne 10:24 "only in and through grace of God that men are saved."
Moro 10:32-33 "...ye may be perfect in Christ, by his grace..."
D&C 17:8 "...the Lord's grace is sufficient for you..."
D&C 20:31 "...sanctification through grace of the Lord..."
There are other references as well.
And you forgot:

2 Nephi 25:23
"For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, AFTER ALL WE CAN DO."

2 Nephi 25:23 is a key text by which Mormons identify and distinguish their view of grace, repentance, works, and merit. It has consistently functioned in Mormonism as a text speaking of the prerequisite conditions for receiving forgiveness, eternal life, and exaltation, although some neo-orthodox Mormon revisionists are attempting to recast it as being about receiving grace in spite of all the conditions that we can't fulfill. Mormon leaders and correlated literature continue to perpetuate the traditional interpretation of this passage.

From General Conference talks that reference this verse, we glean that "all we can do" means "our own merits"1, "all we can do to pay to the uttermost farthing and make right our wrongs"2, "[exert] every ounce of energy"3, "[t]rue and complete repentance"4, "repent to fully pay our part of the debt"5, "giving all that we can give and doing all that we can do in our present circumstance"6, and "maximum effort"7. According to LDS authorities and church-published literature, these conditions are necessary prerequisites "to receive the fullness of the Lord's grace and be made worthy to dwell with him"8, "to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation"9, to "go into the celestial kingdom", to have "the Savior’s magnificent Atonement [pay] the rest of [our] debt", to have God "take away our stain", and "to get God to take [sins] away from our hearts".

Marion G. Romney, "In Mine Own Way," Ensign, Nov. 1976, 123
2. James E. Faust, "The Atonement: Our Greatest Hope," Ensign, Nov. 2001, 18. 2 Nephi 25:23 is referenced by Faust after this sentence.
3. Keith B. McMullin, "Welcome Home," Ensign, May 1999, page. 79.
4. Ronald E. Poelman, "Divine Forgiveness," Ensign, November 1993, p. 84
5. James E. Faust, "The Atonement: Our Greatest Hope," Ensign, Nov. 2001, 18. Emphasis original.
6. Gene R. Cook, "Receiving Divine Assistance through the Grace of the Lord," Ensign, May 1993, p. 79
7. Marion G. Romney, "Fundamental Welfare Services," Ensign, May 1979, p. 94
8. True to the Faith, p. 77

http://www.mrm.org/2-nephi-25-23

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#22700 Mar 24, 2013
What is meant by "after all we can do"?

According to the currently used and Church-published True to the Faith: A Gospel Reference, "the phrase 'after all we can do' teaches that effort is required on our part to receive the fullness of the Lord's grace and be made worthy to dwell with him" (p. 77, emphasis added)10.
(10 See also “What’s Up?,” New Era, Aug 2007, p. 38, where an article is adapted from True to the Faith: A Gospel Reference. Available online here.)

The LDS Bible Dictionary tell us that the grace unto "eternal life and exaltation" is insufficient "without total effort on the part of the recipient":

"This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts. Divine grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the fall of Adam and also because of man's weaknesses and shortcomings. However, grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence the explanation,'It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do'(2 Ne. 25:23)" (p. 697).

Under the heading "2 Nephi 25:23—We Are Saved by Grace, after All We Can Do", the currently used CES manual Book of Mormon Student Study Guide reads,

"We are saved by the power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. We must, however, come unto Christ on His terms in order to obtain all the blessings that He freely offers us. We come unto Christ by doing “all we can do” to remember Him, keep our covenants with Him, and obey His commandments (see D&C 20:77, 79; see also Abraham 3:25)." (p. 53)

To help explain what "after all we can do" means Mormon leaders sometimes cross-reference 2 Nephi 25:23 with Moroni 10:32. For example:

"And what is 'all we can do'? It surely includes repentance (see Alma 24:11) and baptism, keeping the commandments, and enduring to the end. Moroni pleaded,'Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ'(Moro. 10:32)." (Dallin H. Oaks, "Have You Been Saved?" Ensign, May 1998, p. 55)

On December 9th, 1982, Ezra Taft Benson gave a talk entitled, "After All We Can Do", and said the following:

"What is meant by 'after all we can do'?'After all we can do' includes extending our best effort.'After all we can do' includes living His commandments.'After all we can do' includes loving our fellowmen and praying for those who regard us as their adversary.'After all we can do' means clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, visiting the sick and giving 'succor [to] those who stand in need of [our] succor'(Mosiah 4:15)-remembering that what we do unto one of the least of God's children, we do unto Him (see Matthew 25:34-40; D&C 42:38).'After all we can do' means leading chaste, clean, pure lives, being scrupulously honest in all our dealings and treating others the way we would want to be treated."(Ezra Taft Benson, "After All We Can Do," Christmas Devotional, Salt Lake City, Utah, 9 December 1982. Quoted in The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 354.)

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#22701 Mar 24, 2013
Referencing 2 Nephi 25:23 and paralleling temporal salvation with celestial exaltation, Marion G. Romney speaks of how a man must go through the "pearly gates":

"The truth is that we are saved by grace only after all we ourselves can do.(See 2 Ne. 25:23.) There will be no government dole which can get us through the pearly gates. Nor will anybody go into the celestial kingdom who wants to go there on the works of someone else. Every man must go through on his own merits. We might just as well learn this here and now." (Marion G. Romney, "In Mine Own Way," Ensign, Nov. 1976, p. 123)

James Faust sees doing "all that you can do" as "sincerely repent[ing]" and fully repaying our debt to Christ:

"All of us have sinned and need to repent to fully pay our part of the debt. When we sincerely repent, the Savior’s magnificent Atonement pays the rest of that debt.(2 Nephi 25:23)" (James E. Faust, "The Atonement: Our Greatest Hope," Ensign, Nov. 2001, p. 18. Emphasis original.)

The passage is often used as a contrast to the evangelical doctrine of salvation by grace alone through faith alone:

"Many people think they need only confess that Jesus is the Christ and then they are saved by grace alone. We cannot be saved by grace alone,'for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.'" - James E. Faust (ibid.)

Dallin Oaks describes what it means to do all we can do:

"Because of what He accomplished by His atoning sacrifice, Jesus Christ has the power to prescribe the conditions we must fulfill to qualify for the blessings of His Atonement. That is why we have commandments and ordinances. That is why we make covenants. That is how we qualify for the promised blessings. They all come through the mercy and grace of the Holy One of Israel,'after all we can do'(2 Nephi 25:23)." (Oct 2010 General Conference)

Harold B Lee wrote,

"For," said this prophet, "we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Nephi 25:23.) Truly we are redeemed by the atoning blood of the Savior of the world, but only after each has done all he can to work out his own salvation...

The Lord will bless us to the degree to which we keep His commandments. Nephi put this principle in a tremendous orbit when he said:

For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.(2 Nephi 25:23.)

The Savior's blood, His atonement, will save us, but only after we have done all we can to save ourselves by keeping His commandments.(Harold B. Lee, Stand Ye In Holy Places, 1974, pp. 236, 246. Second half of quote also in LDS manual Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Harold B. Lee, p. 18.)

Even general authority Bruce Hafen regards "after all you can do" as prescribing the condition of "if we are faithful":

"And though the journey of mortality can sometimes be very hard, grace shall be as your day—meaning, in Nephi’s words,'it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do'(2 Nephi 25:23). Thus the Lord’s grace extends further as our individual days grow longer, and harder. If we are faithful he will give us whatever the 'day' of our personal circumstances may require." (Bruce C. Hafen in "Come, Come, Ye Saints". Hafen "was provost of Brigham Young University when this Annual University Conference address was given on 28 August 1995.")

A few verses talking about "God's grace" isn't going to cover the whole aspect of LDS teachings.

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#22702 Mar 25, 2013
not ashamed wrote:
<quoted text>Yes because we all know that Obama is the answer to all of our political needs. Have you read the health care reform act?
Do you know that Obama is going to require that people get chips implanted into their arms with their medical and financial information?
Does the term anti-Christ ring a bell?
I don't know about you but it will be over my dead body before the government implants ANYTHING into the arms of my children or myself.
Do you realize that we are now TRILLIONS of dollars indebt because of Obama. The same man who promised to decrease our national deficit yet increased it.
Keep electing our leaders based on religion and see where it gets you.
My guess is we as Americans are quickly being led to being a 3rd world country.
The Supreme Court upholds the Affordable Care Act..Every Prez spends money you idiot..we had a deep recession and although i didn't like the bailout terms..the Prez stopped us from a full economic collapse..no one man can make or break a country, get real!!

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#22703 Mar 25, 2013
'we had no choice'-Hank Paulson, the biggest crook in my lifetime

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#22704 Mar 25, 2013
BYU students to demonstrate for gay marriage: http://fox13now.com/2013/03/24/byu-students-t...

Excommunications to start the day after! LOL!!!

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#22705 Mar 25, 2013
I knew it, the brown trousers have begun in Mormonism.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/opinion/56041564...

Woman, know thy place

I read "April Mormon conference may make history: women will pray" (Tribune, March 19) with great disappointment. I may be a male-chauvinist piglet to many women, yet the fundamentals of scripture are unchanging.

The Apostle Paul divinely stated in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35: "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

Woman was created for man; this world was made for men to lead households and prayers. Man was created in God’s image — not in a woman’s image.

American society has become so politically correct that it has spilled over to theology. Women, as well as children, may sing in church and participate in other ways.

If Brigham Young were alive today, I’m certain he would denounce women overshadowing the proper sphere of men. The sexes have different roles.

James A. Marples

Provo

(Next thing you're know they'll start letting those damned black people hold the priesthood... What?) LOL!!!

“I will not keep calm”

Since: Mar 08

Raise hell...change the world

#22706 Mar 25, 2013
swedenforever wrote:
<quoted text>
The Supreme Court upholds the Affordable Care Act..Every Prez spends money you idiot..we had a deep recession and although i didn't like the bailout terms..the Prez stopped us from a full economic collapse..no one man can make or break a country, get real!!
Yes or no, Have you read the health care reform act?

“ Soon: too late to protest”

Since: Jan 09

Location hidden

#22708 Mar 25, 2013
Sambrotherofnephi wrote:
<quoted text>
How are mormons earning their salvation? Where in the standard works does it say to earn your salvation? I'm a mormon and I believe there is nothing I can do on my own that will save me from death and my sins.
“The Savior's blood, His atonement, will save us, but only after we have done all we can to save ourselves by keeping His commandments.(Harold B. Lee, Stand Ye In Holy Places, 1974, pp. 236, 246.”(post 22701)

Since: Sep 12

Reeds Spring, MO

#22710 Mar 25, 2013
Protester wrote:
<quoted text>“The Savior's blood, His atonement, will save us, but only after we have done all we can to save ourselves by keeping His commandments.(Harold B. Lee, Stand Ye In Holy Places, 1974, pp. 236, 246.”(post 22701)
I get what you're saying, Protester. Let me ask you a question, please. If I accept Christ as my Savior and repent of my sins, am I not "earning" my salvation by repenting? What if I repent of my sins, but do not change from within? What if I continue to live my life the same way I did, before I repented? Will I still be saved? Will my salvation be the same as someone who tried not to sin?

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#22711 Mar 25, 2013
not ashamed wrote:
<quoted text>Yes or no, Have you read the health care reform act?
all 2700 pages?, no I haven't..the Supreme Court probably did

“I will not keep calm”

Since: Mar 08

Raise hell...change the world

#22712 Mar 25, 2013
swedenforever wrote:
<quoted text>
all 2700 pages?, no I haven't..the Supreme Court probably did
well I have, most of it anyway. So should you. Especially pages 1003-1007. Or you can just let the supreme court decide for you.

“I will not keep calm”

Since: Mar 08

Raise hell...change the world

#22713 Mar 25, 2013
swedenforever wrote:
<quoted text>
all 2700 pages?, no I haven't..the Supreme Court probably did
I forgot to mention that reading it was almost as boring as watching paint dry. The only reason I read it was so I could better serve my clients. These are things that effect them and I have to be educated on it.
Your average American hasn't read it. My fear is that they won't. Hell , I wouldn't have if it wasn't for the work I do.
We can't let the courts and politicians decide our future. We have to educate ourselves and understand our options.
Strange

Salt Lake City, UT

#22715 Mar 25, 2013
From everything I've read about Mormons. They are FAR from being Christ-Like, which is what a Christian is.

“I will not keep calm”

Since: Mar 08

Raise hell...change the world

#22716 Mar 26, 2013
Strange wrote:
From everything I've read about Mormons. They are FAR from being Christ-Like, which is what a Christian is.
From everything you have read about us huh ,?
You could try getting to know a few Mormons, instead of characterizing us by what you read.
Father overtime

Salt Lake City, UT

#22717 Mar 26, 2013
Strange wrote:
From everything I've read about Mormons. They are FAR from being Christ-Like, which is what a Christian is.
Nobody on this board has met Jesus, so pretending to know how Jesus acted without any nonverbal subtleties is fibbing.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#22718 Mar 26, 2013
Livinginthelandofcrazy wrote:
<quoted text>
I get what you're saying, Protester. Let me ask you a question, please. If I accept Christ as my Savior and repent of my sins, am I not "earning" my salvation by repenting? What if I repent of my sins, but do not change from within? What if I continue to live my life the same way I did, before I repented? Will I still be saved? Will my salvation be the same as someone who tried not to sin?
Speaking from my personal experience, if you have come to what Christ is offering you, you have no choice but to change. You change how you treat people, you change how you view others, you change in that you look for ways to serve God. It comes out of your gratitude for what he has done. But you aren't trying to earn anything, you have already received his greatest gift, now you hope to live up to it, but when you fall, he is there to pick you up again. You never lose he grace, or his salvation.

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