Episcopal diocese sues to get Red Chu...

Episcopal diocese sues to get Red Church back

There are 15 comments on the www.modbee.com story from Apr 21, 2010, titled Episcopal diocese sues to get Red Church back. In it, www.modbee.com reports that:

The Episcopal Diocese of San Joaquin filed a lawsuit last week against St. James Anglican — the historic Red Church — in Sonora. It was news to St. James' priest, the Rev. Wolfgang Krismanits, on Monday afternoon.

"We've had no word whatsoever," he said. "I've seen nothing yet. I didn't get an e-mail. I didn't get a phone call."

When told that a news release dated Friday said a lawsuit had been filed against his congregation, Krismanits replied with frustration: "This is what (the Episcopals) are doing. They're telling everyone else, but they're not contacting the congregation until after it's done" ...

Join the discussion below, or Read more at www.modbee.com.

“... truth will out.”

Since: May 08

Stratford, Connecticut.

#1 Apr 21, 2010
from modbee:

"St. James, started in 1860, is the fifth incorporated parish in the San Joaquin Diocese to be sued by Lamb since the 2007 diocesan split from the national church over differences of biblical interpretation, such as whether Jesus is the only way to salvation and whether homosexuals should be ordained ...

"Most of the parishes that left the Episcopal Church are owned by the diocese ... But about eight parishes are incorporated — they, not the diocese, own their property deeds. Those parishes, including St. James in Sonora and St. Francis in Turlock, are thus not covered under the lawsuit against Schofield and the Anglican diocese and instead are named in separate actions ...

"The lawsuits seek to gain control of the parishes' property, bank accounts and other assets. The Episcopal church has spent millions of dollars on more than 55 similar lawsuits across the country. The church argues that the properties were established as Episcopalian and should be restored to the church."

Even if their parishes own the property deeds.

“The Kingdom of God Begins NOW!”

Since: May 07

The Mountain Empire

#2 Apr 21, 2010
You shall not steal.

You shall not covet.

Read the big 10....

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#3 Apr 21, 2010
Joe,

This turn of events should not be any real surprise to anyone. When The Episcopal Church brought the Dennis Canon into Church-wide acceptance, the understanding was that there were expected to be future decisions and policies that may be regarded by some as cause for a mutiny.

I do not argue that such causes may prompt such a rebellion or that such rebellion may actually be justified. That is a matter of personal faith.

What I do argue is that some people are led to being unable to act upon their faith. If questioned whether those that are acting upon their faith in these matters are TEC or are the mutineers, I can say both.

But, there is a distinction. If you choose to leave The Episcopal Church, then leave it. Leave all of it.

If you wish to leave under good terms and with the blessing of the Church and its hierarchy, go to the Church and ask for the blessing to leave. Any that have asked for this blessing have received it.

We regard our fellow disciples in Christ as just that. We make no distinction by denomination. We say if you are baptized, then come forward and partake of the Holy Eucharist with us.

But, for the members of the Red Church to complain that they were not notified of the filing of a lawsuit by lawyers serving TEC is, frankly, funny.

These people did not first notify TEC that they were going to leave TEC and take all of the assets of TEC, including bank accounts, endowments and real estate with them. They just took it all and then said its ours anyway. Now they are going to receive just recompense for their unilateral act.

What's more, they knew what they were doing and they also knew the likelihood of eventually having to defend themselves against a pursuit to recover what was taken. Their position is that if they gain anything through eventual victory in court or at least a partial settlement to keep a portion of what they took, it is "half-a-loaf" better than nothing except the faith in their hearts.

I believe that they are very wrong in this chosen course. I believe that they would have been much better off if they had chosen to walk upon their faith alone, taking nothing of earthly value other than personal items. If they had, there would be no loss of integrity and no corruption of intent. Now, as a result of a preemptive act, no matter what they do, gain or lose, they must contend with their own dishonesty.

If just one of their entire parish had wanted to stay with TEC, then the rest of them have conspired to trespass over the interests of this one. As the Lord said, "A little leaven leaveneth the whole loaf."

The courts will decide.

KGC
T McCabe

Fayetteville, TN

#4 Apr 21, 2010
It is all about money. TEC looks like easy picking for a very dishonest set of people. The body of the anti-christ is alive and well and found in the person of Wolfgang Krismanits and his flock.

What was that line about people that can't be trusted in small things - can't be trust in large things.

“... truth will out.”

Since: May 08

Stratford, Connecticut.

#5 Apr 21, 2010
RevKen wrote:
Joe,
This turn of events should not be any real surprise to anyone. When The Episcopal Church brought the Dennis Canon into Church-wide acceptance, the understanding was that there were expected to be future decisions and policies that may be regarded by some as cause for a mutiny ...
I'm Fletcher Christian, but the Dennis Canons are not iron clad; in fact, they proved useless for TEC in its case against a departing parish in SC.

And in this lawsuit, some parishes are incorporated and own their property deeds.

Both legally and morally, I can't understand how someone can own a deed and not the property it attests to, but yes, the courts will decide.

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#6 Apr 21, 2010
Joe DeCaro wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm Fletcher Christian, but the Dennis Canons are not iron clad; in fact, they proved useless for TEC in its case against a departing parish in SC.
And in this lawsuit, some parishes are incorporated and own their property deeds.
Both legally and morally, I can't understand how someone can own a deed and not the property it attests to, but yes, the courts will decide.
Joe,

Whatever happened to the Polish Church in St. Louis that had gotten crossways with their Roman Catholic bishop? The turmoil came to a head about five years ago. They, too, claimed ownership of their own property by deed.

KGC

“... truth will out.”

Since: May 08

Stratford, Connecticut.

#7 Apr 21, 2010
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
Joe,
Whatever happened to the Polish Church in St. Louis that had gotten crossways with their Roman Catholic bishop? The turmoil came to a head about five years ago. They, too, claimed ownership of their own property by deed.
KGC
I don't know, but there is a Polish National Catholic Church, or should I word this in the form of a question?
T McCabe

Fayetteville, TN

#8 Apr 22, 2010
A few more general questions.

What would happen to any Roman parish that attempted to leave Rome's version of Holy Mother Church?

What would happen to any Roman diocese that attempted to leave Rome's version of Holy Mother Church?

What would happen to any Roman priest or bishops that attempted to leave Rome's version of Holy Mother Church with church property or money?(I assume that there would be no problems taking an altar boy or two.)

“The Kingdom of God Begins NOW!”

Since: May 07

The Mountain Empire

#9 Apr 22, 2010
Be sure it's the ROMAN that answers as there are MANY Catholic churches:

• Coptic Catholic Church
• Ethiopic Catholic Church

Antiochian (Antiochene or West-Syrian) liturgical tradition
• Maronite Church
• Syrian Catholic Church
• Syro-Malankara Catholic Church

Armenian liturgical tradition:
• Armenian Catholic Church

Chaldean or East Syrian liturgical tradition:
• Chaldean Catholic Church
• Syro-Malabar Church

Byzantine (Constantinopolitan) liturgical tradition:
http://www.byzcath.org/index.php...
• Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church
• Belarusian Greek Catholic Church
• Bulgarian Greek Catholic Church
• Byzantine Church of the Eparchy of Križevci
• Greek Byzantine Catholic Church
• Hungarian Greek Catholic Church
• Italo-Albanian Catholic Church
• Macedonian Greek Catholic Church
• Melkite Greek Catholic Church
• Romanian Church
• Russian Byzantine Catholic Church
• Ruthenian Catholic Church
• Slovak Greek Catholic Church
• Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church

All of these are older and truer to the original teaching.......

“... truth will out.”

Since: May 08

Stratford, Connecticut.

#10 Apr 22, 2010
T McCabe wrote:
... What would happen to any Roman priest or bishops that attempted to leave Rome's version of Holy Mother Church with church property or money?(I assume that there would be no problems taking an altar boy or two.)
Posters who "assume" are often the first three letters.

“The Kingdom of God Begins NOW!”

Since: May 07

The Mountain Empire

#11 Apr 22, 2010
Joe DeCaro wrote:
<quoted text>
Posters who "assume" are often the first three letters.
Posters who can't answer direct questions are asses, like you joei....

“... truth will out.”

Since: May 08

Stratford, Connecticut.

#12 Apr 22, 2010
MiddleWay wrote:
<quoted text>
Posters who can't answer direct questions are asses ...
IMO, that's being unfair to McCabe: no one is answerable to anyone on Topix, esp, if that anyone is you.
T McCabe

Fayetteville, TN

#13 Apr 22, 2010
Joe

If you really are one of the owners of this blog then I have to point out that I have posted twice on this article and the comment has been blocked.

Why?

Is it actually under the control of another Blog owner?

Article: Archbishops break bread over 'broken' Communion..

“... truth will out.”

Since: May 08

Stratford, Connecticut.

#14 Apr 22, 2010
T McCabe wrote:
Joe
If you really are one of the owners of this blog then I have to point out that I have posted twice on this article and the comment has been blocked ...
No, I'm just an editor; this forum is the intellectual property of Topix.

"Archbishops break bread over 'broken' Communion" has only my one post from Tuesday; I'll see if I can post another comment.
T McCabe

Fayetteville, TN

#15 Apr 23, 2010
Well I posted there again for the 3rd time and repeat the same post and the warning I got in another area. I have faith that it will appear.

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