Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

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rabbee yehoshooah adam

Denver, CO

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#48907
Feb 9, 2013
 
JOEL wrote:
WAS ADAM A MUSLIM AS ALLEGED BY RABID MUSLIMS?
Anyone who surrenders to a higher or lower principle as the case may be cannot be a follower of Islam since surrender is an impersonal and a universal trait, while the surrender demanded by Islam is to be specifically directed to a being called Allah.
Islamic surrender, as a religion, specifically enjoins or indicates the surrender of a human being to a supraphysical being called Allah.
Thus, if a man surrenders to a higher principle he is not following Islam in the narrow religious sense since submission is a common feature of the human consciousness.
A believer may submit to a saint, to a prophet, to an animal, to a whore, to a friend, to an employer, to the absolute, to the higher self, to Hashem, Vishnu, Allah, Lucifer or to any supraphysical being.
To consider every surrendered believer a Muslim is misleading since the object of surrender in each case may be different.
Only the exclusive surrender of a person to Allah can specifically be called Islam.
All other forms of surrender are forms of surrender in a non-Islamic sense as Allah is not the object of submission.
So, to label Adam a Muslim is incorrect since he surrendered to his personal G-d, YHVH/Hashem that is not the same as say Muhammad surrendering to his personal God called Allah.
If it can be proven that Hashem is the same as Allah then and then only can it be concluded that Adam was a Muslim or a surrendered follower of the being, Allah.
However, by any yardstick, it can easily be shown that the characteristics and teachings of Hashem, the Hebrew deity, are very different from those of the Muslim deity, Allah.
So, Adam was not a Muslim but simply a surrendered soul who made the surrender of his psychic to a being other than Allah who he knew as Hashem or YHVH.
rabbee: muhammed surrendered to an angel, not to G-D. and i know for a fact that not all angels, are as goodie goodie as you think. and there is even, a difference between Angels and angels. you should never assume, all angels represent G-D here in TheStory of Physical Creation. and assuming an angel is TheAngel Gabreeel after the fact, is an extreemly poor judgement.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

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#48908
Feb 9, 2013
 
idgaf wrote:
<quoted text>
I think we are in violent agreement for the most part. I have no hidden agenda. These are serious questions that people tend not liking to answer. As for stability in the area, it comes back to American interests in the area which tend to be natural resources. I've been around long enough to understand that we don't do anything out of the goodness of our hearts or for our neighbors. There's always an interest. We can agree to have differing opinions. One question for you. You menationed somewhere back "Our". Are you dual citizenship? I'm assuming that you are an American-Jew and not a Jewish-American. America first, correct?
violent agreement? lol...thats pretty strong words there

I dont have dual citizenship - I am American, but as I Jew I sometimes refer to Jews (Judaism, unlike Christianity, is a tribal religion which refers to a people). I flit back and forth probably between our meaning American and our meaning Jewish.

I think the natural resource you are alluding to is really the quality "stability" so as to allow us to pursue natural resources in other places of the world. Israel has nothing "natural" to offer us Americans except perhaps Ahava beauty products, and various food items like Israeli couscous and humus. If we(Americans) were truely in search of natural resources we would blow off Israel entirely and pursue the Arabs with their oil.

How much snow did you get?

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

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#48909
Feb 9, 2013
 
JOEL wrote:
WAS ADAM A MUSLIM AS ALLEGED BY RABID MUSLIMS?
Anyone who surrenders to a higher or lower principle as the case may be cannot be a follower of Islam since surrender is an impersonal and a universal trait, while the surrender demanded by Islam is to be specifically directed to a being called Allah.
Islamic surrender, as a religion, specifically enjoins or indicates the surrender of a human being to a supraphysical being called Allah.
Thus, if a man surrenders to a higher principle he is not following Islam in the narrow religious sense since submission is a common feature of the human consciousness.
A believer may submit to a saint, to a prophet, to an animal, to a whore, to a friend, to an employer, to the absolute, to the higher self, to Hashem, Vishnu, Allah, Lucifer or to any supraphysical being.
To consider every surrendered believer a Muslim is misleading since the object of surrender in each case may be different.
Only the exclusive surrender of a person to Allah can specifically be called Islam.
All other forms of surrender are forms of surrender in a non-Islamic sense as Allah is not the object of submission.
So, to label Adam a Muslim is incorrect since he surrendered to his personal G-d, YHVH/Hashem that is not the same as say Muhammad surrendering to his personal God called Allah.
If it can be proven that Hashem is the same as Allah then and then only can it be concluded that Adam was a Muslim or a surrendered follower of the being, Allah.
However, by any yardstick, it can easily be shown that the characteristics and teachings of Hashem, the Hebrew deity, are very different from those of the Muslim deity, Allah.
So, Adam was not a Muslim but simply a surrendered soul who made the surrender of his psychic to a being other than Allah who he knew as Hashem or YHVH.
Adam is not considered the first Jew.
JOEL

Mumbai, India

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#48910
Feb 9, 2013
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>

Adam is not considered the first Jew.
Then, who?

Since: May 12

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#48914
Feb 9, 2013
 

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JOEL wrote:
<quoted text>
Then, who?
One of the twelve sons of Jacov.

Why such a question? You can rise your consciousness up to many levels and know whatsoever there is to know... and yet you don't such a simple thing?

cheers

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#48915
Feb 9, 2013
 
JOEL wrote:
<quoted text>
Then, who?
If by “Jew” you mean “Hebrew,” Abraham (ha-ivri) was the first Jew.

If by “Jew” you mean “of the tribe of Judah,” Judah was the first Jew.

If by Jew, you mean first to practice Judaism (i.e. accept the Torah) it would be the Hebrews who departed from Egypt.

If by “Jew” you mean “the first person in the Bible to be referred to as a Jew,” there is a reference to "Jews" in 2 Kings chapters 16–25.

MUQ

Dammam, Saudi Arabia

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#48916
Feb 9, 2013
 
Which “Sword” the Prophet Used against his enemies: Part-56

Our prophet was not only a preacher. He was also an able administrator and a just ruler.

Those who have experience of administration know when to act tough and when to act with leniency. A King, Ruler and President knows which criminal to pardon and which to get executed. Those who do not have this experience may only speak in idealistic terms. Such idealistic persons are never able to administer any country or state with efficiency.

Beside so many “Swords” which we have mentioned earlier on this thread. He also had a sword of steel. When no other sword worked and the only solution was to wield the sword of steel, he used that also.

Any one who has read his biography knows that how reluctantly he had to use it. We present below, some of these cases, where prophet had to use the sword of steel.

A. The Case of : KA,AB BIN ASHRAF, THE JEW

Enemies of Islam have made this into a big scandal and accuse prophet of most cruelty in ordering secret killing of KA,AB BIN ASHRAF , the Jew living in Madina.

KA,AB BIN ASHRAF belonged to one of the Jewish tribe of Madina. He was a rich man and he was also a poet. When prophet reached Madina, he made a written pact with Jews of Madina of mutual respect and mutual defense against aggression from outside enemies.

Prophet was of the hope that these Jews being people with Torah and with concept of Monotheism and prophet hood and revelation, would recognize his credentials and would join Muslim nation of Madina. But things took a different course, these Jews were having a sort of superiority complex against Arabs and were of the opinion that Prophethood and revelation were the exclusive rights of Jews and no one outside 12 Jewish tribes would be made a prophet.

So they rejected the message of prophet and tried every thing in their power to bring the downfall of prophet and his followers. In Madina they had a “natural” ally in the form of Hypocrites and outside Madina, in the form of Pagan Arabs.

Arabs in general regarded Jews and their scholars as a learned lot and asked many questions from them regarding this “new prophet”. On these occasions instead of speaking the truth, Jews used to console those Pagan Arabs, saying that they were on a better path than the one towards which prophet was calling them.

In these tense circumstances and mutual hatred, the famous Battle of Badr took place. Hypocrites of Madina and Jews were more than confident, that Muslim army would be routed by the Makkah people and that will make the end of prophet and his mission.

But, due to grace of Allah, Muslims won a spectacular victory at Badr, which established them as a firm and emerging force in Arabia. Hypocrites and Jews of Madina felt extreme sadness at the victory of Muslims and their hatred increased many fold, and they were almost etching to pick up a fight with Prophet and Muslims.

They did not had to wait for long. The tribe of BANU QAINUQAH, were the first to break the treaty with prophet, and had to vacate Madina. This further added to the hatred of remaining two tribes that were living in Madina.

KA,AB BIN ASHRAF who in addition to being rich was also a very good poet. He went to Makkah for a visit, met the leaders of QURAISH there, consoled each and every of the clan of those who were killed at the battle of Badr and wrote their eulogies in the form of MARTHIAH.

(Contd.)
MUQ

Jubail, Saudi Arabia

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#48917
Feb 9, 2013
 
When he came back, from Makkah, he started using his poetry against Islam and started lampooning prophet and his message. What more he started making fun of Muslim ladies in his poems. This was an act which indicated a very low and mean mentality. Prophet and Muslims kept quite for some time, hoping he would desist, but he took their silence as a mark of cowardice and fear from jews.

Prophet felt that if he openly killed KA,AB BIN ASHRAF it might result in open warfare with Jews, which was not in the best interest of either them or Muslims, as it would cause a lot of blood shed in Madina.

He therefore wanted KA,AB BIN ASHRAF to be executed silently. One day he asked that which of the Muslims would take care of KA,AB BIN ASHRAF as he has caused much suffering to Allah and His Messenger. Mohammad bin MASALLAMA, one young man of ANSARS, volunteered for the job.

He and some of his friends visited KA,AB BIN ASHRAF in the night, on the pretext of taking some loan from him and then pounced on him and killed him.

Jews were terrified when they learned about the killing of KA,AB BIN ASHRAF and refrained from actions of open hostilities against prophet and Muslims.

So by killing one person, prophet was able to save life of many Jews and Muslims in Madina.

That shows that “how careful and selective was prophet, even in his use of Sword of Steel”!!


http://www.scribd.com/doc/122191862

Source: Companions of Prophet: by Talib Hashmi

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

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#48919
Feb 9, 2013
 
You do push it MUQ, i feel almost inclined to start a series quoting from Margoliouths book.

Joel starts on Fritkov Kapra.

But you do gobble up that sword:

one young man of ANSARS, volunteered for the job.

He and some of his friends visited KA,AB BIN ASHRAF in the night, on the pretext of taking some loan from him and then pounced on him and killed him.

Jews were terrified when they learned about the killing of KA,AB BIN ASHRAF and refrained from actions of open hostilities against prophet and Muslims.

So by killing one person, prophet was able to save life of many Jews and Muslims in Madina.

That shows that “how careful and selective was prophet, even in his use of Sword of Steel”!!

---
frankly to most the point is lost.
Butcher a man in the night and destroy a kingdom en passant and claim the jewish synagoge, since that was the goal of the night-journey. Witnessed by an eyewttness!
The ansars later made a faux pas, took what was the prophets=Allahs (another definition that get's in the way)were desinherited but later reinstated under the condition that they could hold whatever they conquered.
Well they moved all the way to spain. And the war chapter 9 with the spoils, would be dearest to them.

““You must not lose faith ”

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#48920
Feb 9, 2013
 
KA.AB or KU6AB or KAÁBA all served as housing for...
The text might have been interpreted to be talking of one man, but it could very well mean the entire household!

You know what i said about the trend is islam the make the prophet appear more angelic.(that entire sword-series was started the proof that point. It's a bit like a Libanese Fatah-land drugcrazed teenager playing with and showing of his gun.)

““You must not lose faith ”

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#48921
Feb 9, 2013
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
violent agreement? lol...thats pretty strong words there
I dont have dual citizenship - I am American, but as I Jew I sometimes refer to Jews (Judaism, unlike Christianity, is a tribal religion which refers to a people). I flit back and forth probably between our meaning American and our meaning Jewish.
I think the natural resource you are alluding to is really the quality "stability" so as to allow us to pursue natural resources in other places of the world. Israel has nothing "natural" to offer us Americans except perhaps Ahava beauty products, and various food items like Israeli couscous and humus. If we(Americans) were truely in search of natural resources we would blow off Israel entirely and pursue the Arabs with their oil.
How much snow did you get?
Allover the world Israel is involved in water-projects. And that includes the Arab world. So people can jump their own shadow.
it's all about saving water and getting it where it is needed.

The technology too.
Fruit, also from the areas that still goes as it always used to via israel.

---
I've concluded that if you do not have cars in the street it does not snow. We got ice-snow, horrible.
MUQ

Jubail, Saudi Arabia

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#48922
Feb 9, 2013
 

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MAAT wrote:
You do push it MUQ, i feel almost inclined to start a series quoting from Margoliouths book.
Joel starts on Fritkov Kapra.
But you do gobble up that sword:
one young man of ANSARS, volunteered for the job.
He and some of his friends visited KA,AB BIN ASHRAF in the night, on the pretext of taking some loan from him and then pounced on him and killed him.
Jews were terrified when they learned about the killing of KA,AB BIN ASHRAF and refrained from actions of open hostilities against prophet and Muslims.
So by killing one person, prophet was able to save life of many Jews and Muslims in Madina.
That shows that “how careful and selective was prophet, even in his use of Sword of Steel”!!
---
frankly to most the point is lost.
Butcher a man in the night and destroy a kingdom en passant and claim the jewish synagoge, since that was the goal of the night-journey. Witnessed by an eyewttness!
The ansars later made a faux pas, took what was the prophets=Allahs (another definition that get's in the way)were desinherited but later reinstated under the condition that they could hold whatever they conquered.
Well they moved all the way to spain. And the war chapter 9 with the spoils, would be dearest to them.
Are you threatening me?

Is quoting from Margoliuth book is a sort of "Anti Virus" for people like me?

It means you also consider him as a person with "strong Anti Muslim Bias"?

That just proves my case that he was not a True Scholar whose aim is to present the truth.

He was the most biased person that wrote on Islam and I do not find any excuse for such people....because they did it knowingly and after understanding the full message.

May be we can put him in the same league of ABDULLAH BIN UBAI, KAAB BIN ASHRAF OR ABU LAHAB (I think that he was most on the line of ABU LAHAB, whose story shall follow after a few episodes) Inshallah, i.e. Allah Willing
Eric

Bensenville, IL

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#48923
Feb 10, 2013
 
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>

Since when the question of their domicile came? Since they say Jew, so they should be welcome to live in Israel.
It was YOU who suggested that we take them in Makkah, I have no problem if they fulfill the Visa requirement for coming to Makkah.
It is you who should make up your mind.
You brought up the topic of domicile, not me. You said the Messianics should drop the word "Jew" from their name and live wherever they wanted, which would include Israel I assume. I only reminded you that they could not remain Messianic and live in Mecca. They would have to change their religious beliefs. That is not living anywhere they wanted. You are being hypocritical.
Eric

Bensenville, IL

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#48924
Feb 10, 2013
 
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>

02. do not damn us, but damn yourself, whom you are trying to fool by saying that Arabs got 2/3rd of Palestine in UNO award?
They most certainly did. They got all of what today is Jordan and about half of what is Israel today. It wasn't enough for them. They wanted it all. They started a war and lost. They wouldn't negotiate peace. Their people suffer.

You tell us not to look back in time for our roots, but you want to look back in time for the Arab roots. The Arabs were awarded 2/3 of the land in 1948 which was equitable for their then presence. They wanted it all but they didn't succeed. They refused to negotiate peace. Their people suffer.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#48925
Feb 10, 2013
 
MAAT wrote:
<quoted text>
Allover the world Israel is involved in water-projects. And that includes the Arab world. So people can jump their own shadow.
it's all about saving water and getting it where it is needed.
The technology too.
Fruit, also from the areas that still goes as it always used to via israel.
---
I've concluded that if you do not have cars in the street it does not snow. We got ice-snow, horrible.
Yes I know there are a lot of things that Israel exports in terms of technology, but I was trying to be humorous (humus? ahava?), and keep to the actual resources.

Most of our region got up to 3 feet of snow. Though where I live I live we barely got a foot or more.

Since: May 12

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#48926
Feb 10, 2013
 
Who knows why the most of the time Muhammad has to kill or order to the victim is a Jewish.
MUQ wrote:
He therefore wanted KA,AB BIN ASHRAF to be executed silently.
In the so called civilized countries if someone makes some satire to, say, a first minister, in a national channel in front of millions of people the satirist won't be touched.

So this Jewish made some satire against Islam and the self claimed prophet, and Muhammad killed him. Acted as true dictator.
MUQ wrote:
Jews were terrified when they learned about the killing of KA,AB BIN ASHRAF and refrained from actions of open hostilities against prophet and Muslims.
Well this is the typical reaction that the people have when the dictator kill one of his opponents. The people have fear and shut their mouths.
MUQ wrote:
So by killing one person, prophet was able to save life of many Jews and Muslims in Madina.
Well, yes after that act he can receive the nobel prize for peace.
former res

Newtown Square, PA

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#48927
Feb 10, 2013
 

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How did my nutmegger friends make out with the snow? A foot and a half or so? We skated by with around 4 inches here. Even less in phila. Glad you're not in Milford CT?

BTW - what's better Stamford Pizza? Clony GRill or Remos?(or Reiko's?)

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#48928
Feb 10, 2013
 

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former res wrote:
How did my nutmegger friends make out with the snow? A foot and a half or so? We skated by with around 4 inches here. Even less in phila. Glad you're not in Milford CT?
BTW - what's better Stamford Pizza? Clony GRill or Remos?(or Reiko's?)
First important things first - Remo. Never been to Reikos. There is also a relatively new and excellent wood fired pseudo organic place in Bulls Head shopping plaza.

Stamford and Greenwich got ripped off. Somewhere between 12 and 14 inches. Fairfield and on up the 95 corridor got the good stuff. 3 feet. Milford got more than 3 feet.

This week is going to be in the 40s so we get the great melt. yuck.
rabbee yehoshooah adam

Denver, CO

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#48930
Feb 10, 2013
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Adam is not considered the first Jew.
rabbee: well people just don't, pay any attention. since Adam always arrives near the end of day four, here in TheTorah. so the linage is always from Noach day one, Avraham day twp, Daveed day three, Adam day four, adam and chaooah day six. but Adam, is always considered Eeveereem. but adam and his mate, never appear to be returned as Eeveereem. because they are not born in Ysrael, like Adam always is.
JOEL

Mumbai, India

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#48931
Feb 10, 2013
 

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STEFANO COLONNA wrote:
<quoted text>

One of the twelve sons of Jacov.

Why such a question? You can rise your consciousness up to many levels and know whatsoever there is to know... and yet you don't such a simple thing?
There are hundreds of gradations of consciousness.

To know about the past, one has to enter a specific range of the vital consciousness.

With me, the yoga took off directly from the higher mind plane and thereafter there occurred a descent of the supramental consciousness into the higher mind, mind, vital and physical.

The supramental has been working out the difficulties and blocks in the mind, vital, physical and subconscient and as such the inner experiences are based on the state of harmony that has been brought in.

Besides, I have been given rare experiences in the cosmic wideness, the cosmic silence, the unified state and so on.

The vital transformation has been difficult for me what with the vital also being the major domain of the hostile vital beings who've attempted to kill or maim me on many occasions...

I have now withdrawn from the yoga due to the intense difficulties and life threatening situations....however, the yogic experiences are continuing on a spontaneous basis despite quitting the yoga...

BTW, on the Allah thread, you retorted that I confirmed what you'd earlier said about the prophets indulging in sex.

I didn't mean that as a fact but as a strong suspicion.

I mentioned that I suspected that Krishna could have had sex with dozens of his female disciples as part of the raas leela - the yoga of the overmental coming down into the gross physical via the intuition mind, illumined mind, higher mind, higher vital, lower vital and subtle physical.

Further, even if this suspicion is true - the main point of discussion would still be if the sex with his female disciples was an act of lust or an act of detachment to forge a total union in being of Krishna with each of his female partners so that the overmental yoga could be made fully effective on all the intervening planes and finally fixed in the gross physical....so, if this was the case, then, the exchange of mental, vital and gross physical energies between Krishna and the females would not have left any disturbances in the being of each of his female disciples. Otherwise, under normal circumstances, sex leaves a disturbance in the force fields due to exchange of energies and if one has multiple partners the more the disturbances in one's force fields.

Anyway, I've still not got the direct proof of Krishna's alliances with his female disciples. But, I have strong suspicions as related above.

Marriage is simply a safe-guard to protect one's force fields from unbalance by restricting the union to a single partner.

Marriage bonds the man to his wife for life so that the couple's force fields remain largely intact on account of the fidelity factor coming into the picture - provided they were sexually virginal to begin with and assuming that they do not indulge in extra-marital affairs after marriage and provided their force fields complement each other. If yes then the disturbance in their force fields would be minimum and if they really suit each other in an uplifting way then their force fields would get enriched and further stabilized.

It's a very subtle mechanism that I've still to understand fully through direct experience via the investigation of the force fields of married couples.

No speculation or inference.

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