NY counties plan appeal to Indian cigarette ruling

There are 20 comments on the Jul 13, 2009, Newsday story titled NY counties plan appeal to Indian cigarette ruling. In it, Newsday reports that:

Local officials say they'll appeal a court decision that allows the Cayuga Indian Nation to resume selling untaxed cigarettes at two tribal stores in central New York .

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Newsday.

First Prev
of 3
Next Last
Truth Teller

Teaneck, NJ

#1 Jul 13, 2009
No matter how much NY politicians try to get around laws, break laws and make them up as they go along to suit their own interests, they will never, ever win this battle.

The politicians who bring these actions against the Native Americans should be held personally liable for the result, rather than the NY State Citizen having to pay via tax dollars for the court costs, manpower costs of frivolous raids and the inevitable legal settlement costs.

All smokers should continue to purchase from the Native Americans. When purchasing from the Native Americans, at the point of purchase, you are in sovereign territory bound by Native American law, not state law.

Understand this, you are not in a State when purchasing smokes from Native Americans, and therefore are not required to pay taxes on them, any more than the Natives are required to collect such taxes.

There is no NY State law on the books that requires you to pay these taxes. NY State, in attempting to enforce this taxation is treating a Native American Reservation the same way it treats Virginia or New Jersey. Again, these are States, not Native American Sovereign Territory.

Even if NY State were to write in such phrasing to "require" you pay the Natives these taxes, it would be invalid as NY State has no legal authority to determine your activities on land for which it has no jurisdiction.
Ian
#2 Jul 13, 2009
Why don't we just have a customs agent sit at the exit to the reservation? When people leave, if they are bringing more cigarettes into the country than one normally can, charge them the tax. Why should these"nations" be treated differently than any other nations?
Suggestion

Fort Lee, NJ

#3 Jul 13, 2009
Since warrantless wiretaps seem so acceptable, just monitor their internet sales channel and put State Police on duty at the warehouse docks and at the end of their driveways.

Nothing in or out, no customers, no FedEx/UPS, without appropriate sales and use taxes being paid.

How you like them feathers and trickets?
Balto

Norwalk, CT

#4 Jul 13, 2009
Anybody who buys smokes with a NY tax stamp on them is nuts but that is a different topic altogether.

Most legal minds will tell you, as Truth Teller has eloquently posted, that the state of NY has no authority on the Indians' sovereign soil.

And they can't stop you from ordering ANYTHING on-line from other states to avoid the onerous tax burden imposed upon you in order to simply survive in this lefty Lib tax-and-spend hellhole.
OhBoy

Westbury, NY

#5 Jul 13, 2009
Ian wrote:
Why don't we just have a customs agent sit at the exit to the reservation? When people leave, if they are bringing more cigarettes into the country than one normally can, charge them the tax. Why should these"nations" be treated differently than any other nations?
Unlawful search and seizure issues. You can't search vehicles without a warrant. Unless they abuse "probable cause".
john

Brooklyn, NY

#6 Jul 13, 2009
Haven't we screwed the Indians enough leave them alone. They should be taxing us for taking their land.
Truth Teller

Teaneck, NJ

#7 Jul 13, 2009
Ian wrote:
Why don't we just have a customs agent sit at the exit to the reservation? When people leave, if they are bringing more cigarettes into the country than one normally can, charge them the tax. Why should these"nations" be treated differently than any other nations?
Because there is no tax treaty regarding such transport. The laws on the books today restrict the *inter-state* transport of cigarettes, not the transport of cigarettes between one United State and a Sovereign Native American Territory.

In order to accomplish what you suggest, there would need to be a tax treaty between the State and the Native American Territory.

Without such a treaty in place, what you suggest would result in multiple violations of ones constitutional rights as an American citizen...Illegal detention, illegal search and seizure etc, etc.
get out now

Highland, NY

#8 Jul 13, 2009
How a bout if NYS stops worrying about collecting more taxes and instead cuts out the millions and millions of dollars of waste that occurs I'm sure on a weekly basis. Then again, that would require REAL leadership and certainly that neither exists up in Albany or at the county level.

I don't smoke, but if I did, trust me I would not be buying cigarettes at the store with those ridiculosu taxes...as it is, I have found ways to buy alchohol online, delivered to my door and costing slightly less and not paying taxes.

NYS should change their motto from the empire state to the 'tax state' if they wanted to be more accurate.

I mean we obviously don't pay enough taxes:
NYS Income tax
NYS sales tax (not to mention the county tax)
NYS gas tax
NYS fuel tax
NYS heating fuel tax
NYS cell phone tax
NYS utility/cable taxes
NYS mortgage tax
NYS cigarette tax
NYS liquor/beer/wine tax
NYS inheritance/estate taxes

Let us now forget 'fees' and 'charges' which are a tax with another name:
NYS law enforcement fee on car insurance
NYS allows an MTA tax on your cell phone bill
NYS allows fuel surcharges on just about anything
NYS uses DMV fees to get additional fees out of residents
NYS hotel taxes
NYS car rental taxes
NYS tire disposal fees
NYS oil disposal fees

Future taxes:
NYS air tax
NYS lawn tax
NYS water tax
NYS existance tax
NYS walking tax
NYS gym tax
NYS paint tax
NYS window tax
NYS door tax
NYS pet tax
NYS fee to leave the state
NYS fee to enter the state
NYS computer tax

Oh it will never end....yet having a 'tea party' was viewed as being a whack job while you were told paying taxes is patriotic. Patriotic would be a revolution getting RID of all politicians from either party and starting all over.
OhWellSchitHappe ns

Brooklyn, NY

#9 Jul 13, 2009
They should just leave the Indians and their patrons alone. Not much of a percentage buy from them anyway.
Dumas

Rosedale, NY

#10 Jul 13, 2009
>|^^^^^^^^^
>|...WINEy TRUCK..........";,___.
>|_..._..._
>"(@)'(@)"" "''"**|(@)(@)*
Paul Vogal

United States

#11 Jul 13, 2009
It is thier right to do what they want in thier own land!
Benedict

New York, NY

#12 Jul 13, 2009
Truth Teller wrote:
No matter how much NY politicians try to get around laws, break laws and make them up as they go along to suit their own interests, they will never, ever win this battle.
The politicians who bring these actions against the Native Americans should be held personally liable for the result, rather than the NY State Citizen having to pay via tax dollars for the court costs, manpower costs of frivolous raids and the inevitable legal settlement costs.
All smokers should continue to purchase from the Native Americans. When purchasing from the Native Americans, at the point of purchase, you are in sovereign territory bound by Native American law, not state law.
Understand this, you are not in a State when purchasing smokes from Native Americans, and therefore are not required to pay taxes on them, any more than the Natives are required to collect such taxes.
There is no NY State law on the books that requires you to pay these taxes. NY State, in attempting to enforce this taxation is treating a Native American Reservation the same way it treats Virginia or New Jersey. Again, these are States, not Native American Sovereign Territory.
Even if NY State were to write in such phrasing to "require" you pay the Natives these taxes, it would be invalid as NY State has no legal authority to determine your activities on land for which it has no jurisdiction.
That is fair enough.

But by the same token, the person who would then be technically IMPORTING taxable items INTO the United States of America or NYS must pay an import tax.

If these tribes care to be sovereign nations, then so be it.

But if they were to, say, legalize cocaine, then the U.S. citizen bringing this illegal item BACK INTO the country must be liable of penalities and prosecution.

Get it?
Mr Big

Syosset, NY

#13 Jul 13, 2009
Pale face has been messing with the natives of this land for hundreds of years. it's the blue print of the american way.

“Spay and neuter your pet”

Since: Jul 07

Burnt Hills

#15 Jul 13, 2009
Suggestion wrote:
Since warrantless wiretaps seem so acceptable, just monitor their internet sales channel and put State Police on duty at the warehouse docks and at the end of their driveways.
Nothing in or out, no customers, no FedEx/UPS, without appropriate sales and use taxes being paid.
How you like them feathers and trickets?
What about gas and all the other things the Indian nations sell. Are those items going to be taxed also? Are we going to police everyone who goes onto and off of Indian reservations? Take away their right to not pay taxes and all those on Indian reservations will lose business. On second thought just give them back their land to do as they please. Hey better yet the Indians should start taxing everyone on the land that was so brutily taken from them.
Crockett

Patchogue, NY

#16 Jul 13, 2009
We stole all their land. Forced them onto cramped reservations. Ensured they will live in poverty. Now that they find a way to make some money, let's make sure we can get some cash out of them. After 500 years of persecution can't we just let it go!

“Spay and neuter your pet”

Since: Jul 07

Burnt Hills

#17 Jul 13, 2009
get out now wrote:
How a bout if NYS stops worrying about collecting more taxes and instead cuts out the millions and millions of dollars of waste that occurs I'm sure on a weekly basis. Then again, that would require REAL leadership and certainly that neither exists up in Albany or at the county level.
I don't smoke, but if I did, trust me I would not be buying cigarettes at the store with those ridiculosu taxes...as it is, I have found ways to buy alchohol online, delivered to my door and costing slightly less and not paying taxes.
NYS should change their motto from the empire state to the 'tax state' if they wanted to be more accurate.
I mean we obviously don't pay enough taxes:
NYS Income tax
NYS sales tax (not to mention the county tax)
NYS gas tax
NYS fuel tax
NYS heating fuel tax
NYS cell phone tax
NYS utility/cable taxes
NYS mortgage tax
NYS cigarette tax
NYS liquor/beer/wine tax
NYS inheritance/estate taxes
Let us now forget 'fees' and 'charges' which are a tax with another name:
NYS law enforcement fee on car insurance
NYS allows an MTA tax on your cell phone bill
NYS allows fuel surcharges on just about anything
NYS uses DMV fees to get additional fees out of residents
NYS hotel taxes
NYS car rental taxes
NYS tire disposal fees
NYS oil disposal fees
Future taxes:
NYS air tax
NYS lawn tax
NYS water tax
NYS existance tax
NYS walking tax
NYS gym tax
NYS paint tax
NYS window tax
NYS door tax
NYS pet tax
NYS fee to leave the state
NYS fee to enter the state
NYS computer tax
Oh it will never end....yet having a 'tea party' was viewed as being a whack job while you were told paying taxes is patriotic. Patriotic would be a revolution getting RID of all politicians from either party and starting all over.
Everyone should pull out their phone bill (land line) and look at all the taxes that we are being forced to pay. It appalling!

“Spay and neuter your pet”

Since: Jul 07

Burnt Hills

#18 Jul 13, 2009
Benedict wrote:
<quoted text>
That is fair enough.
But by the same token, the person who would then be technically IMPORTING taxable items INTO the United States of America or NYS must pay an import tax.
If these tribes care to be sovereign nations, then so be it.
But if they were to, say, legalize cocaine, then the U.S. citizen bringing this illegal item BACK INTO the country must be liable of penalities and prosecution.
Get it?
But the fact of the matter is cocaine is not legal. Until the federal or state government makes cigarettes illegal they can not stop the Indians from selling that product. The issue here is the Indian nations are exempt from taxes and if the state and federal government starts forcing them to collect taxes on cigarettes then they will begin to force them to collect taxes on everything else. Leave them alone!

“Spay and neuter your pet”

Since: Jul 07

Burnt Hills

#19 Jul 13, 2009
Ian wrote:
Why don't we just have a customs agent sit at the exit to the reservation? When people leave, if they are bringing more cigarettes into the country than one normally can, charge them the tax. Why should these"nations" be treated differently than any other nations?
BTW if this is done to the Indians then it must also be done in between states which mean custom officals on every road going in and out of every state. Every state has their own tax rules so if you bought stuff in one state and took it home to another then when entering your home state you would also have to pay taxes again when entering. Hey what goes for one must also go for all! That would put a quick end to anyone buying anything except in their own state. Not good for the economy:(
fellow nyer

Baldwin, NY

#20 Jul 13, 2009
get out now wrote:
How a bout if NYS stops worrying about collecting more taxes and instead cuts out the millions and millions of dollars of waste that occurs I'm sure on a weekly basis. Then again, that would require REAL leadership and certainly that neither exists up in Albany or at the county level.
I don't smoke, but if I did, trust me I would not be buying cigarettes at the store with those ridiculosu taxes...as it is, I have found ways to buy alchohol online, delivered to my door and costing slightly less and not paying taxes.
NYS should change their motto from the empire state to the 'tax state' if they wanted to be more accurate.
I mean we obviously don't pay enough taxes:
NYS Income tax
NYS sales tax (not to mention the county tax)
NYS gas tax
NYS fuel tax
NYS heating fuel tax
NYS cell phone tax
NYS utility/cable taxes
NYS mortgage tax
NYS cigarette tax
NYS liquor/beer/wine tax
NYS inheritance/estate taxes
Let us now forget 'fees' and 'charges' which are a tax with another name:
NYS law enforcement fee on car insurance
NYS allows an MTA tax on your cell phone bill
NYS allows fuel surcharges on just about anything
NYS uses DMV fees to get additional fees out of residents
NYS hotel taxes
NYS car rental taxes
NYS tire disposal fees
NYS oil disposal fees
Future taxes:
NYS air tax
NYS lawn tax
NYS water tax
NYS existance tax
NYS walking tax
NYS gym tax
NYS paint tax
NYS window tax
NYS door tax
NYS pet tax
NYS fee to leave the state
NYS fee to enter the state
NYS computer tax
Oh it will never end....yet having a 'tea party' was viewed as being a whack job while you were told paying taxes is patriotic. Patriotic would be a revolution getting RID of all politicians from either party and starting all over.
Touche

and theee are a lot more taxes if you sit and think a little more -- not to mention -- long island has some of the highest property taxes in the country -- I agree -- leave the indians alone -- those taxes support their nation -- they are self- supporting nations and considering that most of live on land that used to be theirs we hould be thankful we don't pay them tax!!
Ed Burke

Coram, NY

#21 Jul 13, 2009
Truth Teller wrote:
No matter how much NY politicians try to get around laws, break laws and make them up as they go along to suit their own interests, they will never, ever win this battle.
The politicians who bring these actions against the Native Americans should be held personally liable for the result, rather than the NY State Citizen having to pay via tax dollars for the court costs, manpower costs of frivolous raids and the inevitable legal settlement costs.
All smokers should continue to purchase from the Native Americans. When purchasing from the Native Americans, at the point of purchase, you are in sovereign territory bound by Native American law, not state law.
Understand this, you are not in a State when purchasing smokes from Native Americans, and therefore are not required to pay taxes on them, any more than the Natives are required to collect such taxes.
There is no NY State law on the books that requires you to pay these taxes. NY State, in attempting to enforce this taxation is treating a Native American Reservation the same way it treats Virginia or New Jersey. Again, these are States, not Native American Sovereign Territory.
Even if NY State were to write in such phrasing to "require" you pay the Natives these taxes, it would be invalid as NY State has no legal authority to determine your activities on land for which it has no jurisdiction.
In Canada they call them what they are, " First Nation's " not 'indian tribes'. It is the fact that these 'Nation's Pre-date' the United States and should have as many soverign rights as possible that is being challenged. we stole the bulk of their land and murdered most of them long ago. It does seem te very least to let them sell untaxed cancer acceleration devices.

Besides that clientelle will die off soon anyway, so what are we giving the First Nation's really ?

Not Much, as always !

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker
First Prev
of 3
Next Last

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Seneca Falls Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
News Lyons Teen charged with sex with 13 year old (Oct '14) Apr 16 Porky 4
News Three State Parole Officers Under Arrest (Sep '14) Apr 9 Philly2034 15
News First glimpse of victims in Geneva's double murder (Nov '09) Apr 6 LeroyJones 29
News Danish Imam Condemns Cartoon Violence (Feb '06) Apr 6 Bjorn 614
simon hadley Apr 5 boo boo scully 1
News On this Day: 19th Amendment Gives Women Right t... (Aug '08) Mar '15 Charles 55
News From prison to pulpit (May '09) Feb '15 sickened 5
More from around the web

Seneca Falls People Search

Addresses and phone numbers for FREE

Personal Finance

Mortgages [ See current mortgage rates ]