Who says Mormons aren't Christians?

Oct 12, 2011 Full story: CNN 32,004

Editor's note: Dean Obeidallah is an award-winning comedian who has appeared on TV shows such as Comedy Central's "Axis of Evil" special, ABC's "The View," CNN's "What the Week" and HLN's "The Joy Behar Show." He is executive producer of the annual New York Arab-American Comedy Festival and the Amman Stand Up Comedy Festival.

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“Protest / support the marchers”

Since: Jan 09

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#19403 Dec 16, 2012

“Protest / support the marchers”

Since: Jan 09

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#19404 Dec 16, 2012
Polygamy
…the church's 1890 reversal of its policy on polygamy was done for political, not divine, reasons, citing the fact that it happened in the midst of a lengthy battle with the federal government over property seizures and statehood.
…the fact that soon after the church received the revelation that polygamy was prohibited, Utah again applied for statehood, and this time the federal government did not object to starting the statehood process.
…soon after the church suspended the practice of polygamy, the federal government reduced its legal efforts to seize church property. Mormons Ron Wood and Linda Thatcher do not dispute that the change was a direct result of federal intervention and respond that the church was left with no choice. The 1887 Edmunds–Tucker Act was crippling the church and "something dramatic had to be done to reverse [the] trend." After the church appealed its case to the U.S. Supreme Court and lost, church president Wilford Woodruff issued the Manifesto. Woodruff noted in his journal that he was "acting for the temporal salvation of the Church".
…early church leaders established the practice of polygamy in order to justify behavior that would otherwise be regarded as immoral.…criticize Joseph Smith for marrying at least 32 women during his lifetime, including several under the age of 16, a fact acknowledged by Mormon historian Todd Compton. Compton also acknowledges that Smith entered into polyandrous marriages (that is, he married women who were already married to other men) and that he warned some potential spouses of eternal damnation if they did not consent to be his wife, and furthermore that, in at least two cases, he married orphan girls that had come to live at his home
(next post)

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#19405 Dec 16, 2012
Protester wrote:
<quoted text>
OK, you asked for it. Them's fightin words:
Mormons Baptize Notorious Killers
Jesus was ready to forgive killers and the like, what's the difference? Jesus was ready to forgive those that shredded his flesh for punishment. He was ready to forgive those that had direct and indirect connection to his death and the deaths of two thieves.
What's the difference if Jesus was ready to forgive the sinner or that Mormons think sinners can have a chance if they haven't heard the gospel? Same train of thinking.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#19406 Dec 16, 2012
Reasons why Enoch isn't in the Bible(From a pro Enoch web site):
OK! OK! So why is it not in the Bible?

Uncertain as well as multiple authorship, and several slightly varying texts are among the main reasons cited for Enoch not "making it" into the generally recognized canon. In truth, the spiritual agenda(s) of the early Roman Church is most likely the ultimate reason however, and we will examine this agenda here as well. Let's begin with the first two though, before moving to the more incredulous, but quite valid "conspiracy theories."

"The Book of Enoch, like the book of Daniel, was originally written in Aramaic, and partly in Hebrew (1)." While there may have been Hebrew translations during the centuries B.C.(which early church leaders may or may not have had access to), today only the Ethiopic manuscripts exist, as well as some incomplete Greek and Latin translations, plus one Aramaic fragment from the Dead Sea Scrolls. By the time of Jesus' birth, "average" Jews were reading mainly the Greek Septuagint translation of their own Torah (completed 200 B.C.), as a result of their years of foreign captivity and then-current Roman occupation. To coin the vernacular, they had been assimilated. So unless an authentic Aramaic version appears miraculously today, there will never be any completely indisputable way to argue for a modern "canonization" of 1 Enoch, as the originals are lost, probably forever.

The honest problem facing the infant Roman Church of 390 A.D., when first assembling today's Bible, was that the existing copies of 1 Enoch varied, albeit in minor ways. "Unlike the (rest of the) Bible which was carefully copied and checked for errors by Jewish and Christian scribes throughout its history, The Book of Enoch is available in a number of ancient manuscripts that differ slightly from one another... and many errors have crept in... There is no way of knowing which versions are (exactly faithful to) the original and which are the errors. While this doesn't change its stories in any substantial manner, it does make it impossible to anchor beliefs or arguments on any given section...(4)."

Another less important but quite "legitimate" issue is that 1 Enoch is actually a collection of at least four different "books," possibly written by various authors over many centuries, and possibly not by the true Enoch of Genesis 5.

Even with all of this said, there is still no "clean" explanation for Enoch's 1000-year disappearance from even popular literature though.

http://www.sherryshriner.com/church-coverup.h...

Also the fact that it is believed to have been written around 200 B.C. proves it wasn't even written by Enoch.

You explain why even the Jews today don't have it in their scriptures? You can't blame the Catholic church for that.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#19407 Dec 16, 2012
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
You didn't answer the question as I asked it. So I'll rephrase it.
Jesus said to do as he did. Jesus suffered himself to baptism by immersion in water.
In your opinion of what you know of the NT, is a person that knows the gospel of Jesus, are they or are they not committing a sin by choosing not to be baptised by immersion as Jesus did it and told us, commanded us, to do as he did?
Jesus told us to be baptize. He never said it had to be by immersion. But whether he did or didn't isn't the issue. If we have put our faith in his sacrifice for sin, we are covered by that sacrifice. That is grace. Unearned merit or favor. Unearned, get it?

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#19408 Dec 16, 2012
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
You do realize that the Jesus/God of the NT was the same Jesus/God of the OT? Take away the name Jesus if you wish. The fact remains the same. The God of the NT is the same God of the OT.
All Christian beliefs were predicated on former beliefs established by Moses ans the OT prophets coming after Moses. All beliefs given to Moses and the prophets following him were to replace the laws lost during the Israelites captivity prior to Moses being born that were held from Adam to Noah to Abraham.
Or do you think the same gospel was given exactly in the same context from Adam to Jesus?
Jesus was raised a Jew. he was out teaching/correcting the laws of Moses that had been added to and subtracted from by the priests since sometime after Moses's death. He found what they taught perverse and incorrect from what had once been taught/said.
So when you state you'll stick to Jesus, unknowingly your stating you'll stick to Jewish teachings Christ gave from Adam to himself.
Yet when it comes to eternal marriage, you only find his statements clearly saying there was to be none, in the Old or New Testament. Dance around all you want to justify it, but it isn't taught in the Bible, period. And Jesus changed several of the rules while he was here. He was bringing them the Gospel of grace, over the law.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#19409 Dec 16, 2012
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
You're getting way out there. I never said that baptism for the dead was done for the remission of sins for an individual so they were forgiven their sins. I NEVER stated any such thing. But you did, not I, understand the twist you did?
This is why I stated to you, suggested to you to understand a doctrine before you attack it.
A baptism for the dead done in the temples gives no spirit forgiveness of their sins. The Mormon doctrine teaches baptism for the dead "affords" departed spirits forgiveness IF they accept the proxy baptism done for them because for whatever reason they didn't do it while living. Understand the difference between what you say the doctrine means and what it actually means?
Just a lot of double talk and "who shot John". Ask a Mormon if they do temple work for the dead so the dead gets a chance for the remission of their sins and they will tell you "yes" every time. Back to straining on gnats again.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#19410 Dec 16, 2012
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
So if anyone rejecting baptism by immersion is forgiven the moment they put their faith in Jesus, then we can use your belief for murders like Hitler and Stalin, the horrendous acts of the Nazi soldiers against the Jews, Judas's betrayal and suicide, we can use your belief for any sin any one commits if afterwards they put their faith in the grace of Jesus now or in the next life! Wow, I haven't read that in the NT before. Interesting opinion I guess.
Show me evidence Hitler and Stalin ever excepted Christ, and we'll discuss it. I don't know why you haven't heard about salvation by the grace of Jesus Christ before, because I know I have certainly posted the verses many times. Are you having reading difficulties? Apparently you don't want to trust the word of God. I don't have problem. And as the Mormon church has done the temple work for Hitler, even Mormonism teaches that Hitler get a free ride for his crimes by just saying, "yeah, I take it." Is that better in your eyes?

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#19411 Dec 16, 2012
False doctrines taught in the book of Enoch:

1:1 Implies restoration during tribulation - not congruent with scriptures.

1:8 In conflict with the doctrine that peace was made at the cross. Also, in the last days tribulation will increase for the righteous - this "verse" seems to dispute that.

2:2-3 Appears to contradict 2 Pet 3:3-7

5:4 Is an admonition to some unknown party - this is very irregular relative to the scriptures (i.e. authentic ancient writings by God-fearing Jews)

6:3 Semjaza seems to be listed as the leader of the angels, which is not scriptural

6:3,8 None of these angels are mentioned in the Bible

8:1 Azazel isn't even listed in 6:8 as one of the angels that fornicated with women

8:3 Araqiel and Shamsiel aren't listed in 6:8 either

10:2 Enoch allegedly wrote about Noah, even though the Bible teaches that Enoch was taken up to heaven years before Noah was born.

10:4-6,12 Implies angels can be bound & hid in holes under rocks. This is contrary to scripture.

10:8 Ascribes all the sin of the fallen angels to one named Azazel - not scriptural.

10:15-11:2 Seems to imply that permanent restoration took place after the flood - clearly not true. It seems the true author of this book confused scriptures pertaining to the future restoration.

13:5-6,14:4-5,7 Implies fallen angels can't talk to God - this contradicts Job. Also implies that angels were repentant, but weren't received back by God - very strange doctrine.

14 Gives a very strange description of Heaven that conflicts with many scriptures

15:8-10 Very strange doctrine about "evil spirits" proceeding from unredeemable giants

17-18,21,23 Gives a very strange description of the earth & universe which is clearly not true. Also alludes to the ancient model of astronomy that held that there were 7 stars (the closest planets) which burned like the sun (they don't.)

19:3 Discredits all other prophecy about the consumation of the ages.

20 Lists strange angels not in scripture, and incorrectly assigns the roles of Michael (the warrior) and Gabriel (the messenger)

21:7-10 Seems to contradict Biblical descriptions of the present & final judgement places for the fallen angels

22 Contradicts the Biblical descriptions of past, present & future dwelling places for the righteous who die

32:2-6 Seems to imply the Garden of Eden was still in existance after the Flood

33:1-2 Says Heaven rests on a foundation that is at the Eastern edge of the earth

33:3 He claims he counted the stars & individually mapped them, which is impossible scripturally (& scientifically)

34 Says the winds come out of a "portal" at the Northern edge of the earth

36:3 Says the stars come out of portals at the Eastern edge of the earth & move West

38:5-6 Contradicts Daniel & other prophecies about the Mellinial Reign

39:1-2 Very strange implications here about the "seed" of angels dwelling with men at the end... this contradicts the scriptures

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#19412 Dec 16, 2012
40:7 Talks about the "Satans" - plural, different than the Bible, who gives that name to only one fallen angel. Also, implies Satan can't stand in God's presence, contrary to Job.

40:9 Once again mixes up the roles of the 2 Archangels & adds more names in. Michael's role in scripture is related to conquoring nations & fighting spiritual wars, while Gabriel's relates to bringing messages & visions to people.

41:1-2 Says the Kingdom of God is divided - it's not & can't be scripturally. Also describes sinners being repelled from a mansion, which is also not scriptural, unless you look at a parable Jesus told, which was not intended to be literal.

41:4-5 Says the sun, moon, winds, etc. are stored in chambers & released at appointed times.

41:6-7 Implies the sun & moon move opposite of each other

43:1-3,44 Very weird model of the nature of stars & lightning

47:4 Says God requires the blood of the saints... very strange

51:1 Says Sheol & Hell will give back to the earth, which isn't scriptural - also Hell is a NT term, not OT

51:2 Disputes the Biblical doctrine that we are chosen.(We don't have to wait until Christ's return to be chosen.) This isn't scriptural.

General: Seems to imply Enoch came back down to earth after being taken up to Heaven, which is not scriptural.


It appears the Catholic church had good reason for rejecting it. The fact that Jesus and the Apostles never quote it also confirms it.
Father Overtime

Salt Lake City, UT

#19413 Dec 16, 2012
Do not waste your time talking to these Mormon bashers. They actually think that temple ordinances are evil when they are scriptural. They tell you that baptism isn't necessary. Saying baptism isn't necessary is completely false. Go tell Jesus that his baptism was meaningless you false teachers!! Shame on you for your twisting of scripture to create your convenient religion. You lack understanding in every way. You ignore the context of scripture. You ignore the context of everything. Your reading and comprehension skills are not trustworthy to preach hours on end. Go away.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#19414 Dec 16, 2012
Father Overtime wrote:
Do not waste your time talking to these Mormon bashers. They actually think that temple ordinances are evil when they are scriptural. They tell you that baptism isn't necessary. Saying baptism isn't necessary is completely false. Go tell Jesus that his baptism was meaningless you false teachers!! Shame on you for your twisting of scripture to create your convenient religion. You lack understanding in every way. You ignore the context of scripture. You ignore the context of everything. Your reading and comprehension skills are not trustworthy to preach hours on end. Go away.
Temple ordinances are scriptural? Please, show me where.

“Protest / support the marchers”

Since: Jan 09

Location hidden

#19415 Dec 16, 2012
God was once a man

Critics such as Richard Abanes and the Institute for Religious Research criticize the church for changing the principle asserting that God was once a man, citing changes to the LDS publication Gospel Principles between the 1978 and 1997 editions, where "We can become Gods like our Heavenly Father" was changed to "We can become like our Heavenly Father" and "[O]ur Heavenly Father became a God" was changed to "[O]ur Heavenly Father became God".

(If this is true, then WHO MADE THAT GOD A MAN, another god?
Like I said many times, they have to keep correcting their ‘god’ because he’s not real. This is a man-made religion -- people make mistakes, God doesn’t.)

“Protest / support the marchers”

Since: Jan 09

Location hidden

#19416 Dec 16, 2012
Blood atonement
Brigham Young introduced the doctrine known as "blood atonement", regarding unpardonable sin, or sin for which Jesus Christ's atonement does not apply. He taught that a person could only atone for such sins by giving up his or her life. Various church leaders since Young have taught likewise. Bruce R. McConkie stated that "this doctrine can only operate in a day when there is no separation of church and state and when the power to take life is vested in the ruling theocracy as was the case in the day of Moses."

(This is anti-Christian because Jesus’ death paid for all our sins.
The unpardonable sin:
Continued rejection of Jesus as Savior
http://christianity.about.com/od/faqhelpdesk/...

Not suicide
http://www.heritagebbc.com/archive1/0024.html

“Protest / support the marchers”

Since: Jan 09

Location hidden

#19417 Dec 16, 2012
Endowment ceremony
Jerald and Sandra Tanner allege that Joseph Smith copied parts of the Mormon temple endowment ceremony from Masonic rituals (such as secret handshakes, clothing, and passwords), and that this undermines the church's statement that the rituals were divinely inspired.
…Joseph Smith was himself a Freemason prior to introducing the endowment rituals into Mormonism.
…the church's revision of the temple endowment ceremony over the years, saying that revisions were made to obscure provocative practices of the early church.
The Foundation for Apologetic Information & Research acknowledges changes to the endowment ceremony and points out that (according to Joseph Fielding Smith) Joseph Smith told Brigham Young the ceremony was "not arranged perfectly", and challenged him to organize and systemize it, which Young continued to do throughout his presidency
(In other words, to FIX their god’s mistakes.)
(next post)

“Protest / support the marchers”

Since: Jan 09

Location hidden

#19418 Dec 16, 2012
Finances

The church has often been secretive about its finances, especially in the United States. The church has not disclosed its assets in the U.S. since 1959.
the LDS Church retaliates against members that publish information that undermines church policies, citing excommunications of scientist Simon Southerton and biographer Fawn M. Brodie. They further state that the church suppresses intellectual freedom, citing the 1993 excommunication of the "September Six", including gay LDS historian D. Michael Quinn, and author Lavina Fielding Anderson.…Anderson was the first to reveal the LDS Church keeps files on LDS scholars, documenting questionable activities, and the Ostlings state that "No other sizable religion in America monitors its followers in this way".

(Mormons claim that Joseph Smith said that native Americans are really Jews, but now we know from DNA research that they’re not even in the same group and there are only 5 on earth. This point alone proves that Mormonism is inspired by Satan because Smith claimed that the information came from God, so it had to be 100% correct - THAT is the test of a false prophet.)

“Protest / support the marchers”

Since: Jan 09

Location hidden

#19419 Dec 16, 2012
Simon Southerton is an Australian plant geneticist.
Southerton published the book Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church. The book uses genetic evidence to examine the historical accuracy of The Book of Mormon. Southerton was a member of the LDS Church, but after the book was published, the church charged him with inappropriate sexual relations with a woman other than his wife; in an email sent to the Associated Press he stated he was excommunicated for being too vocal regarding the results of the Genomics Project DNA
However, Members of the church disciplinary council contended that the excommunication had nothing to do with the book
Part Way to Utah: the Forgotten Mormons Perhaps the single most important tenet of Joseph Smith’s theology was the identification of his church as “latter-day Israel.”
his identification of America—and specifically Independence, Missouri—as the “promised land” to which Jesus would one day return.
The prevalent notion among American and European clergymen in the early 1800s was that the American Indians were remnants of the lost tribes of Israel.
When Joseph Smith produced his Book of Mormon during 1827–30 he took this concept one step further: America also became their “promised land.” The predominant Book of Mormon peoples, Nephites and Lamanites, are presented as descendants of Joseph through Manasseh (Alma 8:3). Only fifty-four verses into the Book of Mormon these Israelites are told that they would soon be sent from Jerusalem to “a land of promise”
(1 Nephi 1:54), the American continent.
This lengthy, and highly imaginative insertion into the Genesis account was designed to provide additional support for the Zion which Joseph himself was trying to build in Missouri.

While Joseph Smith portrayed the American Indians as descendants of Manasseh, he came to portray the European portion of his church as descendants of Ephraim…
When Gentiles joined his church Joseph taught that their actual blood would be changed to make them the literal seed of Abraham.
http://help4rlds.com/pwtu/PWTUChap3.pdf

“Protest / support the marchers”

Since: Jan 09

Location hidden

#19420 Dec 16, 2012
Alleged distortion of its own history
…the church distorts its history in order to portray itself in a more favorable light. Specifically they allege that there was a systematic removal of events that portray Joseph Smith in a negative light.
…the widely distributed church manual Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young omits any mention of Young's polygamy, and that the book's chronological summary of Young's life includes the date of his first marriage, the date of the first wife's death, and the date of the second legal marriage, but omits mention of Young's dozens of other marriages.
LDS historian D. Michael Quinn accuses LDS leaders of urging historians to hide "controversies and difficulties of the Mormon past". Mormon scholar Allen Robers says LDS leaders "attempt to control depictions of the Mormon past".
Non-LDS professor John Hallwas of Western Illinois University says of LDS historians: "[they] do not mention Mormon intimidation, deception, repression, theft, and violence, or any other matters that might call into question the sacred nature of the Mormon experience."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_The...

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#19421 Dec 16, 2012
Wow! All the negativity from the haters, and I still know the LDS Church is true!

Merry Christmas!
Father Overtime

United States

#19422 Dec 16, 2012
They hate and bash and have opinions. It's America. They can do that. I'm still looking for actual facts from this Internet cult but they refuse to believe the entire bible and only take sections that are self serving. Haters and bigots they are. Try reading Matthew again and get back to me on if works are required to be saved or not.

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