Who says Mormons aren't Christians?

Who says Mormons aren't Christians?

There are 31996 comments on the CNN story from Oct 12, 2011, titled Who says Mormons aren't Christians?. In it, CNN reports that:

Editor's note: Dean Obeidallah is an award-winning comedian who has appeared on TV shows such as Comedy Central's "Axis of Evil" special, ABC's "The View," CNN's "What the Week" and HLN's "The Joy Behar Show." He is executive producer of the annual New York Arab-American Comedy Festival and the Amman Stand Up Comedy Festival.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at CNN.

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#19332 Dec 13, 2012
Protester wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, it should be 19169, although I've noticed that Topix often holds comments for review, then inserts them back, giving my posts a different number.
Thank you for clarifying.

Protester Quote:“Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. fail that test. They don't trust God to tell the truth. They're calling God a liar, which is a big no-no. They don't trust Him, so they do good works to SAVE THEMSELVES.”

We believe in the grace of God.

Examples from the Book of Mormon:
Moroni 10:33
33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

Jacob 4:7
7 Nevertheless, the Lord God showeth us our weakness that we may know that it is by his grace, and his great condescensions unto the children of men, that we have power to do these things.

2 Nephi 25:23
“23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved…”

2 Nephi 10:24
24 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#19333 Dec 13, 2012
Protester wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, it should be 19169, although I've noticed that Topix often holds comments for review, then inserts them back, giving my posts a different number.
I looked at much of what you posted and it looks like there is a lot of misunderstanding. The Book of Mormon for example: of course much of the text is going to be very similar to that in the Bible. The people lived by the same gospel. One God, one gospel, and one way to salvation for everyone: through Christ. The Book of Mormon describes how the writers of the Book of Mormon took a copy of some of the old testament with them to the Americas….so of course it is going to influence their writings and they are going to quote significant passages.(see first few chapters of the Book of Mormon)

Regarding baptisms for the dead: Just because someone is baptized for the dead doesn't mean they get in to heaven. If you do a baptism for someone who is dead you are simply giving them the opportunity to accept the gospel, it doesn’t mean they will. We believe the same spirit that inhabited the body on earth exists after death. If that spirit was evil here, it will be evil there after and reject the gospel. If you start judging who would likely benefit from a baptism for the dead you start traveling down a path of taking the judgment of God into your hands. Its much simpler just to have everyone baptized and let God make the judgment call as to what they deserve in the after life.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#19334 Dec 13, 2012
Sambrotherofnephi wrote:
<quoted text>
Christ said that we would be rewarded according to our deeds.
Titus 3:5
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

1 Timothy 1:9
realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#19335 Dec 13, 2012
Sambrotherofnephi wrote:
<quoted text>
I disagree. In the lds church it is my understanding that one can marry someone for all eternity and if the partner dies the person left can marry some one else, but just not for eternity.
Sorry, it doesn't matter what the LDS church is teaching. Paul is clearly saying that at death, the marriage is over, otherwise, if a person remarried, they would be committing adultery.
Whether Paul is talking about "the law" as in the old mosaic law or "the law" as in the new gospel which fulfilled the law would determine if this quote is relevant at all to current Christianity. He is speaking of things past because he says in verse 6 "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."
Which has nothing to do with marriage, eternal or not. You do not see him teaching eternal marriage. In fact, you can read him teaching against marriage altogether later in order to serve the Lord better. Now if eternal marriage was so important to our lives after the resurrection, that would be a very strange thing to teach.
See also Romans 7 verse 4, which seems to say we can be married after the Resurrection. "Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God."
We are all going to be literally married to Jesus for eternally? Because the is the "him" that is talked about in that verse. That isn't even LDS teaching. He is only using a metaphor for Christ's love for us. In another verse it talks about Christ being our bridegroom. If that were literal, even the men would be married to Jesus. I hope you know you were pushing there to try an get a point.
It sounds like Paul is saying that the law doesn't matter any more to us because we are "dead to the law by the body of Christ." It also sounds like Paul is saying that now that Christ has risen and fulfilled the old law, "ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead..." or in other words, "you should be married for eternity, even after you are Resurrected."
Married after the Resurrection? It looks like Paul thinks so.
Thank you for bringing that scripture to my attention.
We are dead to the law because we are saved by the grace. You are really stretching it to claim it has anything to do with eternal marriage.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#19336 Dec 13, 2012
Sambrotherofnephi wrote:
<quoted text>
Regarding my prior post, you could argue that "him who is raised from the dead" is Christ and that we need to be figuratively married to Christ, but the statement "bring forth fruit unto God" seems to indicate that you are intended to have children with this partner. "Fruit" is used in other areas of the bible to indicate posterity or offspring. Example: "Fruit of the womb", "fruit of thy body," "fruit of thy cattle"....
Never heard of any "fruit of the cattle". But with any simple reading of that chapter, you would know the fruit talked about is good works, not children.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#19337 Dec 13, 2012
Sambrotherofnephi wrote:
<quoted text>
God is ALWAYS be our God, no matter what happens. There will never come a time when we rise above Him. A Father never becomes anything less than a Father to the son as he matures and enters adulthood and the Son never becomes more than a Son to that Father as he rises in wisdom and age.
The point Isaiah is getting at is illustrated in 1 Corinthians 8: 5-6 (to be considered later), that to US there is only one God. Isaiah is making it clear that we only worship one God, where as with the heathen, there are Gods and fathers and sons of Gods, all of which must be taken into consideration when worshiping.(like Zeus and Hercules maybe...I don't know I'm no expert on heathen Gods)
1 Corinthians 8:5-6 acknowledges that there are many Gods, but we only acknowledge and worship one. "For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth,(as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."
Paul acknowledges that "there be gods many, and lords many." But to us, there is only one.
The whole Bible is a testimony that there is only one real God. That there will only ever be one real God, and that's it. All the other God's of that time and those that came later where creations of man, fictional. False God's. God doesn't need any help, and there will never be another like him. Mormonism teaches he was once a man. That implies that he had a God over him. Isiah say no. There where no God's before him. Mormonism teaches you can become a God. Isiah says no, there will be none after him. That is plain and simple. We are the creation of God. God's creation can not become a God.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#19338 Dec 13, 2012
Sambrotherofnephi wrote:
Check out this link for some awesome Mormon Tabernacle Choir Christmas music: http://mormon.org/christmas...
My favorite is "For unto us a child is born"
My favorite Tab Christmas song is "The Choral of the Bells."

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#19339 Dec 13, 2012
Sambrotherofnephi wrote:
<quoted text>
Thank you for clarifying.
Protester Quote:“Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. fail that test. They don't trust God to tell the truth. They're calling God a liar, which is a big no-no. They don't trust Him, so they do good works to SAVE THEMSELVES.”
We believe in the grace of God.
Examples from the Book of Mormon:
Moroni 10:33
33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.
Jacob 4:7
7 Nevertheless, the Lord God showeth us our weakness that we may know that it is by his grace, and his great condescensions unto the children of men, that we have power to do these things.
2 Nephi 25:23
“23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved…”
2 Nephi 10:24
24 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.
Nice trick editing 2 Nephi 25:23. Left out "after all we can do" which makes it clear that you are then no longer saved by grace. Mormonism claims to love the Bible, but ignores what it is clearly saying in these verses:

(Ephesians 2:8-9)- "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast."
(Rom. 3:20, 28)- "because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin...For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."
(Galatians 2:16)- "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
(Romans 11:6)But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#19340 Dec 13, 2012
Now compare those verse to what Boyd K. Packer teaches, which would be the LDS view:

He spoke of "a puzzle" in the scriptures about justice and mercy, "two seemingly conflicting principles." He related a parable in modern language to illustrate how Christ's atonement makes it possible for individuals to be saved from sin if they do their part.

The parable tells of a man who, in order to acquire something he wanted very much, incurred a great debt although he had been warned about going into debt and particularly about the creditor. The debtor signed a contract with the lender and didn't worry about repaying the debt since the due date seemed a long time off. Eventually, the contract fell due and the creditor demanded payment in full. Only then did the debtor realize that his creditor not only had the power to repossess all that he owed but also the power to cast him into debtor's prison. The debtor pled for mercy, the creditor demanded justice.

"There they were: one meting out justice, the other pleading for mercy. Neither could prevail except at the expense of the other," President Packer said. "&#8201;'If you do not forgive the debt, there will be no mercy,' the debtor pleaded.'If I do, there will be no justice,' was the reply.

"Both laws, it seemed, could not be served. Mercy cannot rob justice. Each is an eternal ideal that appears to contradict the other. Is there no way for justice to be fully served and mercy also?

"There is a way. The law of justice can be fully satisfied and mercy can be fully extended, but it takes someone else. And so it happened this time."

President Packer said the debtor had a friend who, although thinking the debtor foolish to have gotten himself into such a predicament, loved him and stepped between him and the creditor as mediator. The friend told the creditor, "&#8201;'You demanded justice. Although he cannot pay you, I will do so. You have been justly dealt with and can ask no more. That would be just.'&#8201;" The mediator said to the debtor, "If I pay your debt, will you accept me as your creditor?"

"&#8201;'Oh, yes,' cried the debtor.'You saved me from prison and show mercy to me."

"&#8201;'Then,'&# 8201;" said the mediator,'you will pay the debt to me, and I will set the terms. It will not be easy, but it will be possible. I will provide a way. You need not go to prison.'&#8201;"

President Packer said, "Unless there is a mediator, unless we have a friend, the full weight of justice, untempered and unsympathetic, must, positively must fall on us. The full penalty for every transgression, however minor or however deep, will be exacted from us to the uttermost farthing.

"There is a Mediator, a Redeemer who stands both willing and able to appease the demands of justice and extend mercy to those who are penitent.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700195344/...

That isn't salvation by grace, that is salvation by works. It isn't Biblical.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#19341 Dec 13, 2012
Sambrotherofnephi wrote:
<quoted text>
I looked at much of what you posted and it looks like there is a lot of misunderstanding. The Book of Mormon for example: of course much of the text is going to be very similar to that in the Bible. The people lived by the same gospel. One God, one gospel, and one way to salvation for everyone: through Christ. The Book of Mormon describes how the writers of the Book of Mormon took a copy of some of the old testament with them to the Americas….so of course it is going to influence their writings and they are going to quote significant passages.(see first few chapters of the Book of Mormon)
That may explain the Isiah quotes, but how does that explain the New Testament quotes? Also, how did the know the name of Christ before he was born? How did some of the people in the Book of Mormon get called "Christian" before there was a Christ?
Regarding baptisms for the dead: Just because someone is baptized for the dead doesn't mean they get in to heaven. If you do a baptism for someone who is dead you are simply giving them the opportunity to accept the gospel, it doesn’t mean they will. We believe the same spirit that inhabited the body on earth exists after death. If that spirit was evil here, it will be evil there after and reject the gospel. If you start judging who would likely benefit from a baptism for the dead you start traveling down a path of taking the judgment of God into your hands. Its much simpler just to have everyone baptized and let God make the judgment call as to what they deserve in the after life.
Well, there shouldn't have been any doubts about Adolph Hither, yet the LDS church did the temple work for him also. They also have done the temple work for Jesus Christ. Why?

“ Soon: too late to protest”

Since: Jan 09

Location hidden

#19343 Dec 13, 2012
Sambrotherofnephi wrote:
<quoted text>
Regarding baptisms for the dead: Just because someone is baptized for the dead doesn't mean they get in to heaven. If you do a baptism for someone who is dead you are simply giving them the opportunity to accept the gospel, it doesn’t mean they will. We believe the same spirit that inhabited the body on earth exists after death. If that spirit was evil here, it will be evil there after and reject the gospel. If you start judging who would likely benefit from a baptism for the dead you start traveling down a path of taking the judgment of God into your hands. Its much simpler just to have everyone baptized and let God make the judgment call as to what they deserve in the after life.
What nonsense. The Bible tells us that the dead know nothing. They sleep until Judgment Day.
Your practice makes a mockery of baptism. If it was legitimate, then they would have done it during Jesus' life.

People: Get away from this Satanic religion. It is clearly ANTI-CHRISTIAN in every way.
Joseph Smith was a FALSE PROPHET and will suffer the wrath of God for all those he deceived.
Mormons said that Native Americans are Jews, but DNA testing proved that to be a lie.
Lie, after lie, after lie -- but at least their lies are so clear, so obvious that nobody will have any excuse on Judgment Day.
Their beliefs are so stupid, and have to be 'fixed', and often hidden and lied about, because they are MAN-MADE. If they were inspired by God, then they wouldn't have to throw out so much of what was 'inspired'(by Satan).

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#19346 Dec 14, 2012
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
Titus 3:5
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
1 Timothy 1:9
realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Undoubtedly we are not saved by anything we do alone. Look at my post above the one you posted which I am responding to.(it has the Book of Mormon scriptures about grace) Christ saves us, but it is up to us to allow that salvation to work in our lives. We must choose to allow the soul saving faith (faith which is a gift from God by his grace) take root in our hearts and we must choose to allow that faith to prompt us to action. God will not force salvation into clenched fists, all He needs is an open heart and open hand willing to do His will.

However, after we are saved from death and hell, we can receive more blessings even more. We will be judged according to our works.(By the way, prayer is a form of work, but not the only kind of work) In Revelation we read of the judgement:

Rev 20:12-13 "..the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.....death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."

(As if it wasn't enough to say it once, the scriptures say it twice in two verses side by side..."judged according to works")

If its a battle of references I think Jesus Christ wins as the ultimate reference. I think I will stick with what is said to have come out of the mouth of the Savior himself.

Matthew 16:24-27 "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, it he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#19347 Dec 14, 2012
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
The whole Bible is a testimony that there is only one real God. That there will only ever be one real God, and that's it. All the other God's of that time and those that came later where creations of man, fictional. False God's. God doesn't need any help, and there will never be another like him. Mormonism teaches he was once a man. That implies that he had a God over him. Isiah say no. There where no God's before him. Mormonism teaches you can become a God. Isiah says no, there will be none after him. That is plain and simple. We are the creation of God. God's creation can not become a God.
Revelation says that God has a God who is His Father. I am NOT saying we should worship anyone other than God the Father, for to US there is but one God.

Rev 1:5-6 (Emphasis added)
"And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests UNTO GOD AND HIS FATHER; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."

In other words: Christ made us kings and priests to God (which is Christ's father who is God the Father) and His Father (who is God the Father's Father)

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#19348 Dec 14, 2012
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
Never heard of any "fruit of the cattle". But with any simple reading of that chapter, you would know the fruit talked about is good works, not children.
I hadn't heard of any "fruit of the cattle" either, until I read Deuteronomy 28:4.:-)

"Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep."

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#19349 Dec 14, 2012
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry, it doesn't matter what the LDS church is teaching. Paul is clearly saying that at death, the marriage is over, otherwise, if a person remarried, they would be committing adultery.
I think he is talking about the way things used to be under the law. I can understand your fruit being works justification since the rest of the chapter is about the law, sin, redemption, and death. Later, in verse 5 of Romans 7 he talks about bringing "fruit unto death." I am not sure what that means, but it could be works. But if you want to assert that fruit is a reference to works, I'm fine with the idea of bringing "forth [works] unto God." (verse 4) Especially since that aligns with the scripture found in Matthew 16:27 quoted earlier.

I have shared what I believe to be some evidence for what I hold to be true, and if you choose not to see it the same way, then we can move on to more exciting points of doctrine.

Even IF eternal marriage isn't spelled out in our current bible, you have to admit, a lot of scripture is missing.

There are other arguments I could copy and paste from FAIR, but that wouldn't be much fun to discuss.

If you want a look see: http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormon_ordinances/Ma...

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#19350 Dec 14, 2012
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
My favorite Tab Christmas song is "The Choral of the Bells."
That one is awesome too! I love how it captures the anticipation of the coming of Christ or Christmas.

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#19351 Dec 14, 2012
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
(Ephesians 2:8-9)- "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast."
(Rom. 3:20, 28)- "because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin...For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."
(Galatians 2:16)- "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
(Romans 11:6)But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Response to scriptures:
We totally believe what those scriptures are saying.

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#19352 Dec 14, 2012
Dana Robertson wrote:
President Packer said, "Unless there is a mediator, unless we have a friend, the full weight of justice, untempered and unsympathetic, must, positively must fall on us. The full penalty for every transgression, however minor or however deep, will be exacted from us to the uttermost farthing.
"There is a Mediator, a Redeemer who stands both willing and able to appease the demands of justice and extend mercy to those who are penitent.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700195344/...
That isn't salvation by grace, that is salvation by works. It isn't Biblical.
What I read from this is that Jesus Christ saves us from the demands of justice. There was nothing the debtor could do to save himself, he was toast, but because he had a Mediator, he was able to be saved from the demands of justice. It is by mercy and grace that we are saved from the demands of justice. I don't see how that conflicts with other things the bibles says about the relationship between faith and works.

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#19353 Dec 14, 2012
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
That may explain the Isiah quotes, but how does that explain the New Testament quotes? Also, how did the know the name of Christ before he was born? How did some of the people in the Book of Mormon get called "Christian" before there was a Christ?
<quoted text>
Well, there shouldn't have been any doubts about Adolph Hither, yet the LDS church did the temple work for him also. They also have done the temple work for Jesus Christ. Why?
I had never heard of that happening before,(Mormons baptizing Christ) so I looked it up. I am assuming that you must be referring to this article: https://sites.google.com/site/miguelinmechele...

See article text, it indicates that the temple work was not done for "Jesus Christ" but another similar name.

"It appears the submissions for “Jesus Christian,” and “Jesus Cristian” were attempts to manipulate the identity of Jesus Christ through the LDS temple system. The misspelled “Cristian,” instead of “Christian,” could have been a typo, or a deliberate error. It may have been intentionally entered as “Cristian” to get around a computer program that automatically blocks submissions that contain the names “Jesus Christ.” That would explain why the entry for “Jesus Christian” shows LDS ordinances as “Not available.”"

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#19354 Dec 14, 2012
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
That may explain the Isiah quotes, but how does that explain the New Testament quotes?
The Book of Mormon is the spiritual record of the people in the Ancient Americas, the Bible is the spiritual record of the people in the Ancient Middle East.

If there is one God and he has the same message of salvation for everyone, don't you think he would want all of his children to have the same gospel, the same divine message?

God loves all of His Children, the Book of Mormon is evidence of that. God did not neglect his Children in the Americas at the meridian of time when the most important moment in the history of the earth occurred. Christ's miraculous sacrifice extends to everyone, and surely it was important to God to get the message out to everyone. Christ said in John 10:16 that he had other sheep not of this fold and they would hear his voice. He is talking about the people in the Americas.

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