Who says Mormons aren't Christians?

Who says Mormons aren't Christians?

There are 32098 comments on the CNN story from Oct 12, 2011, titled Who says Mormons aren't Christians?. In it, CNN reports that:

Editor's note: Dean Obeidallah is an award-winning comedian who has appeared on TV shows such as Comedy Central's "Axis of Evil" special, ABC's "The View," CNN's "What the Week" and HLN's "The Joy Behar Show." He is executive producer of the annual New York Arab-American Comedy Festival and the Amman Stand Up Comedy Festival.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at CNN.

sportxmouse

“Duty is a Privilege!”

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#32824 Feb 25, 2014
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
I only put you or him down when you intentionally being dumb.
That is not true. You put everyone down that you don't agree with... even Jesus Christ. Come on be truthful.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#32825 Feb 25, 2014
sportxmouse wrote:
<quoted text>
That is not true. You put everyone down that you don't agree with... even Jesus Christ. Come on be truthful.
You're pathetic.

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#32826 Feb 25, 2014
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
And the ignorant refuse to see even the nose on their face. You're a joke.
Have you ever even considered what it is you want me to accept that you think is true and makes all the sense in the world for a theory to believe in? Some of your theory goes as follows.
At or before 14, Smith has had an idea forming for how to build and organize a brand new religion so he can cheat and swindle and screw all sorts of females married and unmarried.
At 14 Smith pretends to have a vision he first just tells to family. Than he tells it to ministers so they can have all sorts of mean and rude and nasty things to say of him at 14.
By 17 Smith has made sure to make it impossible for any one to know he has read volume after volume of anything dealing with the Native American Indians that people think are descend from Israelites because he has a book he wants to publish to cheat and swindle people out of their money with.
By age 21 while marrying Emma, he has mentally structured his religion and with a photographic mind remembering all he read of Indians being descendants of Jews, he makes metal plates secretly that are gold colored which he'll claim all he info for a book comes from that he'll allow some to see and even feel. And some will think he really has gold plates and will try to kill him for them but that's okay for him.
Between ages 21 to 24 Smith makes a big nothing over falsely translating in front of three different people while looking in a hat to make it look good. He even purposefully has Harris lose 116 hard written pages just so he can write all 116 pages over again.
That's one summery of the theory you want me to believe is true as you believe it. What I believe is you really want to believe it happened that way. That I believe :)

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#32827 Feb 25, 2014
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
BS, they could have compare the handwriting of the manuscripts. Your crap is thick tonight, and not even remotely intelligent.
You can't even make sense of your own twisted theory...lol.

According to you, Smith had a photographic mind. It's the only thing that explains how three different witnesses acting as his scribes stated they saw him looking into a hat as he spoke the words of a story and not from any book.
After 116 pages he apparently made Harris take them and purposefully lose them(why Smith did this you haven't said)so he would have to stick his head back into a hat for 116 brand new pages.
Now the person taking these pages would have re-wrote them and altered the contents to look like it was their work and not Smiths. But that was never done. So maybe Harris destroyed them on his own? This is your theory, not mine.
So any how Smith rejects Harris and jumps on him for losing the 116 pages which Harris is all befuddled about as he did what Smith told him to do.
Smith now uses his wife for a spell begin the book again. Than he uses Cowdery.
That's another summery of your theory you want us to believe. And we believe you believe it.
pearl

Sandy, UT

#32828 Feb 25, 2014
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
You can't even make sense of your own twisted theory...lol.
According to you, Smith had a photographic mind. It's the only thing that explains how three different witnesses acting as his scribes stated they saw him looking into a hat as he spoke the words of a story and not from any book.
After 116 pages he apparently made Harris take them and purposefully lose them(why Smith did this you haven't said)so he would have to stick his head back into a hat for 116 brand new pages.
Now the person taking these pages would have re-wrote them and altered the contents to look like it was their work and not Smiths. But that was never done. So maybe Harris destroyed them on his own? This is your theory, not mine.
So any how Smith rejects Harris and jumps on him for losing the 116 pages which Harris is all befuddled about as he did what Smith told him to do.
Smith now uses his wife for a spell begin the book again. Than he uses Cowdery.
That's another summery of your theory you want us to believe. And we believe you believe it.
Where are you getting this stuff?
pearl

Sandy, UT

#32829 Feb 25, 2014
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>

You can't make a theory based on both settings, that Smith and others claimed he translated the BOM from God and Smith and others knew he made it all up from his mind. You have to use one or the other theory to make a point.
But of course you can. One does not contradict the other.
pearl

Sandy, UT

#32830 Feb 25, 2014
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
No. Straining on gnats tries to prove that a near illiterate person of an eight grade education reads and reads and reads from one and all available sources and creates a story in just over a year of 616 pages, claiming 116 pages lost with witnesses and he has to re-write and with very few corrections has published a first draft that accomplished literary giants have never even contemplated trying to do themselves.
Straining at gnats as yourself wish to prove how easy it was done. Yet you falter proving that actual point of how easily it was done. You're the one claiming you know how he produced the BOM and you continually fail to prove your point beyond theories of how you think he did it. You strain at gnats to prove what you can't.
Since when is an eighth grade education considered near illiterate? And what the hell is near illiterate anyway? Is that like being kinda pregnant?
Pud

Lewis Center, OH

#32831 Feb 25, 2014
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
Have you ever even considered what it is you want me to accept that you think is true and makes all the sense in the world for a theory to believe in? Some of your theory goes as follows.
At or before 14, Smith has had an idea forming for how to build and organize a brand new religion so he can cheat and swindle and screw all sorts of females married and unmarried.
At 14 Smith pretends to have a vision he first just tells to family. Than he tells it to ministers so they can have all sorts of mean and rude and nasty things to say of him at 14.
By 17 Smith has made sure to make it impossible for any one to know he has read volume after volume of anything dealing with the Native American Indians that people think are descend from Israelites because he has a book he wants to publish to cheat and swindle people out of their money with.
By age 21 while marrying Emma, he has mentally structured his religion and with a photographic mind remembering all he read of Indians being descendants of Jews, he makes metal plates secretly that are gold colored which he'll claim all he info for a book comes from that he'll allow some to see and even feel. And some will think he really has gold plates and will try to kill him for them but that's okay for him.
Between ages 21 to 24 Smith makes a big nothing over falsely translating in front of three different people while looking in a hat to make it look good. He even purposefully has Harris lose 116 hard written pages just so he can write all 116 pages over again.
That's one summery of the theory you want me to believe is true as you believe it. What I believe is you really want to believe it happened that way. That I believe :)
South Park Episode 123 handled this very well. Show us the DNA evidence.

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#32832 Feb 25, 2014
pearl wrote:
<quoted text>Where are you getting this stuff?
From the critics point of view/theory of what Smith wasn't according to them.
According to them and Dana....
Smith wasn't a prophet.
Smith wasn't influenced or guided by God.
Smith did everything from his own accord, his own genius.

Thus according to the critics it only makes sense by their claims of Smith being a regular non-God influenced guy Smith had to have a photographic mind. Nothing else explains how someone could read so much literature between 14 and 24 to construct what would be a total of 616 pages in about a 3 year period.
We have witnesses that stated what smith did as he spoke and they never said he spoke as he read books. To further elaborate of what I didn't include earlier, they stated Smith used a hat, glass like spectacles and sometimes used nothing as he looked at the metal plates critics claim he made himself(or had someone make them for him).
So from the critics theory, they have a guy with an eight grade education that never obviously wrote anything but a letter prior to the BOM but who the critics claim studied all sorts of literature on natives and Jews for at least 7 years to ready himself to write a book that he planned to build a religion from.
How don't you see their theory? Do you see another I'm missing?

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#32833 Feb 25, 2014
pearl wrote:
<quoted text>But of course you can. One does not contradict the other.
Actually in correct context you can't. That's like proving God doesn't exist by using the theory of evolution as evidence. That's like proving God exists by using the the theory of evolution as evidence. Doesn't work. Never will work in either case.
Well you can't prove Smith was a prophet and was guided by God by using the critics point that he wasn't a prophet and wasn't influenced by God. Neither can you prove Smith wasn't a prophet and wasn't influenced by using the believers point that he was a prophet and was influenced by God. Just won't work.
Pro and con can attack each others theories and that's it.

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#32834 Feb 25, 2014
pearl wrote:
<quoted text>Since when is an eighth grade education considered near illiterate? And what the hell is near illiterate anyway? Is that like being kinda pregnant?
I had a cousin that was raised on a ranch/farm in the sixties and seventies that was schooled in a one room school house in Montana because the kids were so far from any towns and school budgets had no budget for buses to travel 60+ miles twice a day for a dozen to two dozen kids.
I know what kind of an educational curriculum the teach had to spread out over kids aged 6 to teens. I know they missed school in the spring and fall for planting and harvesting. I know they missed school for cattle drives the community was involved in each spring and fall. I know in the winter they missed many days due to snowy roads not yet plowed.
So I can easily imagine how that school setting was for Smith and kids in the early 1800s. And many kids though they learned the alphabet and how to read and write some and do basic addition and subtraction IF, if they paid attention in class, by today's educational standards most of those kids would be considered near illiterate and uneducated. They didn't have school books as we have them. The teacher might teach from a book.
Also one detail critics won't elaborate upon that proves my point of Smith being uneducated, as he formed his church, he had other very studied and educated people doing accounts, writing, recording and finances for the most part of his being the leader of his church from it's infancy to his death. You can find that out with a simple search. After the BOM printing Smith wrote letters and in a diary and such in his later years but not much else.
pearl

Sandy, UT

#32836 Feb 26, 2014
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
I had a cousin that was raised on a ranch/farm in the sixties and seventies that was schooled in a one room school house in Montana because the kids were so far from any towns and school budgets had no budget for buses to travel 60+ miles twice a day for a dozen to two dozen kids.
I know what kind of an educational curriculum the teach had to spread out over kids aged 6 to teens. I know they missed school in the spring and fall for planting and harvesting. I know they missed school for cattle drives the community was involved in each spring and fall. I know in the winter they missed many days due to snowy roads not yet plowed.
So I can easily imagine how that school setting was for Smith and kids in the early 1800s. And many kids though they learned the alphabet and how to read and write some and do basic addition and subtraction IF, if they paid attention in class, by today's educational standards most of those kids would be considered near illiterate and uneducated. They didn't have school books as we have them. The teacher might teach from a book.
Also one detail critics won't elaborate upon that proves my point of Smith being uneducated, as he formed his church, he had other very studied and educated people doing accounts, writing, recording and finances for the most part of his being the leader of his church from it's infancy to his death. You can find that out with a simple search. After the BOM printing Smith wrote letters and in a diary and such in his later years but not much else.
So is your cousin illiterate?
One would think that if he could read, "see Dick and Jane run", that would make him literate. How much more formal schooling in reading does one need once they learn the basics of reading? I mean ya know, not to be considered "near illiterate"?
And the one detail you "think" proves your point that Smith was near illiterate or uneducated lacks any kind of basis to prove anything. His mother could read, you really think that a mother who can read and write doesn't teach her children to read and write? His wife could read and write. At a time when schooling according to you was hard to come by, yet the two most important women in his life could do both? Women at the turn of the nineteenth century knowing how to read and write, oh my! But for some reason Boy Joe just didn't receive that kind of instruction? Just from the part of the country that he grew up in would make him much more likely to have received reading and writing lessons. That fact that he had other people recording and taking dictation, certainly doesn't prove him uneducated, hence the reason critics probably don't address it. That's another leap on your part.
And that one book the teacher taught from was most likely a bible, you know that, so if one could read, they probably knew their bible.
pearl

Sandy, UT

#32837 Feb 26, 2014
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually in correct context you can't. That's like proving God doesn't exist by using the theory of evolution as evidence. That's like proving God exists by using the the theory of evolution as evidence. Doesn't work. Never will work in either case.
Well you can't prove Smith was a prophet and was guided by God by using the critics point that he wasn't a prophet and wasn't influenced by God. Neither can you prove Smith wasn't a prophet and wasn't influenced by using the believers point that he was a prophet and was influenced by God. Just won't work.
Pro and con can attack each others theories and that's it.
Let me refresh your memory, "You can't make a theory based on both settings, that Smith and others claimed he translated the BOM from God and Smith and others knew he made it all up from his mind" That's not a pro vs. con and it is what many do claim.
pearl

Sandy, UT

#32838 Feb 26, 2014
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
From the critics point of view/theory of what Smith wasn't according to them.
According to them and Dana....
Smith wasn't a prophet.
Smith wasn't influenced or guided by God.
Smith did everything from his own accord, his own genius.
Thus according to the critics it only makes sense by their claims of Smith being a regular non-God influenced guy Smith had to have a photographic mind. Nothing else explains how someone could read so much literature between 14 and 24 to construct what would be a total of 616 pages in about a 3 year period.
We have witnesses that stated what smith did as he spoke and they never said he spoke as he read books. To further elaborate of what I didn't include earlier, they stated Smith used a hat, glass like spectacles and sometimes used nothing as he looked at the metal plates critics claim he made himself(or had someone make them for him).
So from the critics theory, they have a guy with an eight grade education that never obviously wrote anything but a letter prior to the BOM but who the critics claim studied all sorts of literature on natives and Jews for at least 7 years to ready himself to write a book that he planned to build a religion from.
How don't you see their theory? Do you see another I'm missing?
No it doesn't make sense that he had to have a photographic memory. You just keep leaping like a frog, don't ya? Why the claim he would have to read so much in a specific time period? You think it would take a miracle to come up a story {much of it from The Bible}, of over six hundred pages in three years?
Now I have a honest question, was Smith supposedly reading directly from the plates all the times he was translating or was he sometimes reading from his stones that were in a hat,{I can't believe I'm saying this} while the plates sat covered on the table he worked from?

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#32839 Feb 26, 2014
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
Have you ever even considered what it is you want me to accept that you think is true and makes all the sense in the world for a theory to believe in? Some of your theory goes as follows.
At or before 14, Smith has had an idea forming for how to build and organize a brand new religion so he can cheat and swindle and screw all sorts of females married and unmarried.
At 14 Smith pretends to have a vision he first just tells to family. Than he tells it to ministers so they can have all sorts of mean and rude and nasty things to say of him at 14.
By 17 Smith has made sure to make it impossible for any one to know he has read volume after volume of anything dealing with the Native American Indians that people think are descend from Israelites because he has a book he wants to publish to cheat and swindle people out of their money with.
A lot you post here is your speculation of what would be required. Most of it foolishness because you want to set standards to make it impossible. But the first thing one needs to look at in seeing how the boy Smith came to be formed in the later religious con artists and thief you have to look at his family.

The short version of this background, with sources can be found at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_of_Jo...

"Smith grew to maturity during the Second Great Awakening, a period of religious excitement in the United States. New York west of the Catskill and Adirondack Mountains became known as the "Burned-over district" because it was "repeatedly singed by the fires of revival that swept through the region in the early years of the nineteenth century."[20] Major multi-denominational religious revivals occurred in the Palmyra area in both 1816-17 (when the Smiths were in the process of migrating from Vermont) and in 1824-25.[21] Small denominational revivals and camp meetings occurred during the intervals.[22][23][24]

"Joseph Smith's ancestors had an eclectic variety of religious views and affiliations.[25] For instance, Joseph Smith's paternal grandfather, Asael, was a Universalist who opposed evangelical religion. According to Lucy Smith, Asael once came to Joseph Smith, Sr.'s door after he had attended a Methodist meeting with Lucy and "threw Tom Paine's Age of Reason into the the [sic?] house and angrily bade him read that until he believed it."[26] Conversely, in 1811 Smith's maternal grandfather, Solomon Mack, self-published a book describing a series of heavenly visions and voices he said had led to his conversion to Christianity at the age of seventy-six.[27]

"Smith's parents also experienced visions. Before Joseph was born, his mother Lucy, prayed in a grove about her husband's refusal to attend church and later said she had had a dream-vision, which she interpreted as a prophecy that Joseph, Sr. would later accept the "pure and undefiled Gospel of the Son of God."[28] According to Lucy, Joseph Smith, Sr. also had seven visions between 1811 and 1819, coming at a time when he was "much excited upon the subject of religion." These visions confirmed in his mind the correctness of his refusal to join any organized church and led him to believe that he would be directed in the proper path toward salvation.[29] Lucy's account, recorded thirty years after the period in which the visions are said to have occurred, suggests "a tendency to make her husband the predecessor of her son" by echoing passages in the Book of Mormon.[30]

To be continued...

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#32840 Feb 26, 2014
"Like perhaps thousands of contemporary Americans,[31] the Smith family practiced various forms of folk magic such as using divining rods and seer stones to search for buried treasure. Four witnesses reported that the Smiths used divining rods in the Palmyra area, and sometime between Joseph Smith, Jr.'s eleventh and thirteenth years, he began "following his father's example in using a divining rod."[32] Magical parchments handed down in the Hyrum Smith family may have belonged to Joseph, Sr.[33] Lucy Mack Smith noted in her memoirs that while family members were "trying to win the faculty of Abrac, drawing magic circles or sooth saying," they did not neglect manual labor, "but whilst we worked with our hands we endeavored to remember the service of & the welfare of our souls."[34] Smith's reputation among his Palmyra neighbors was that of a "nondescript farm boy" who was "lazy and superstitious," and townspeople viewed his family as "treasure-seekers, not eager Christians."[35] Thus, Smith was reared in a family that believed in prophecy and visions, was skeptical of organized religion, and was interested in both folk magic and new religious ideas.[36]

"Smith said he had become concerned about religion "at about the age of twelve years," although later he seems to have wondered whether "a Supreme being did exist."[37] Smith apparently attended the Presbyterian Sunday school as a child,[38] and later as an adolescent, he displayed interest in Methodism.[39] One of Smith's acquaintances said that Smith had caught "a spark of Methodism" at camp meetings "away down in the woods, on the Vienna road."[40] He even reportedly spoke during some of these meetings, and the acquaintance described Smith as a "very passable exhorter."[41]

"Nevertheless, at some point after 1822,[42] Smith withdrew from organized religion.[43] According to his mother, Smith claimed, "I can take my Bible, and go into the woods, and learn more in two hours, than you can learn at meeting in two years, if you should go all the time."[44] Still, Smith seems to have been significantly influenced by the interdenominational revival of 1824-25.[45]"

Lucy Smith tells us in her book about the young before he even got the golden plates:

"During our evening conversations, Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He Would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of traveling, and the animals upon which they rode, their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life with them." (Chapter 7 Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith by Lucy Smith)

Shows he was clearly working on the story before he even begun setting anything to paper. Smith's mother also claimed to have visions, and no doubt with this kind of background he followed the same path from what he learned from his family.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#32841 Feb 26, 2014
From about 1819, Smith regularly practiced scrying, a form of divination in which a "seer" looked into a seer stone to receive supernatural knowledge.[67] Smith usually practiced crystal gazing by putting a stone at the bottom of a white stovepipe hat, putting his face over the hat to block the light, then divining information from the stone.[68] Smith and his father achieved "something of a mysterious local reputation in the profession—mysterious because there is no record that they ever found anything despite the readiness of some local residents to pay for their efforts."[69]

In late 1825, Joseiah Stowell, a well-to-do farmer from South Bainbridge, Chenango County, New York, who had been searching for a lost Spanish mine near Harmony Township, Susquehanna County,
Pennsylvania with another seer, traveled to Manchester to hire Smith "on account of having heard that he possessed certain keys, by which he could discern things invisible to the natural eye."[70]

Smith agreed to take the job of assisting Stowell and Hale, and he and his father worked with the Stowell-Hale team for approximately one month, attempting, according to their contract, to locate "a valuable mine of either Gold or Silver and also...coined money and bars or ingots of Gold or Silver".[71] Smith boarded with an Isaac Hale (a relative of William Hale), and fell in love with Isaac Hale's daughter Emma, a schoolteacher he would later marry in 1827. Isaac Hale, however, disapproved of their relationship and of Smith in general. According to an unsupported account by Hale, Smith attempted to locate the mine by burying his face in a hat containing the seer stone; however, as the treasure hunters got close to their objective, Smith said that an enchantment became so strong that Smith could no longer see it.,[72] The failed project disbanded on November 17, 1825;[73] however, Smith continued to work for Stowell on other matters until 1826.
Emma Hale Smith

In 1826 Smith was arrested and brought to court in Bainbridge, New York, on the complaint of Stowell's nephew who accused Smith of being "a disorderly person and an imposter."[74] Court records show that Smith, identified as "The Glass Looker," stood before the court on March 20, 1826, on a warrant for an unspecified misdemeanor charge,[75] and that the judge issued a mittimus for Smith to be held, either during or after the proceedings.[76] Although Smith's associate Oliver Cowdery later stated that Smith was "honorably acquitted,"[77] the result of the proceeding is unclear, with some claiming he was found guilty, others claiming he was "condemned" but "designedly allowed to escape," and yet others (including the trial note taker) claiming he was "discharged" for lack of evidence.[76]

By November 1826, Josiah Stowell could no longer afford to continue searching for buried treasure; Smith traveled to Colesville, New York, for a few months to work for Joseph Knight, Sr.,[78] one of Stowell's friends. There are reports that Smith directed further excavations on Knight's property and at other locations around Colesville.[79] Smith later commented on his working as a treasure hunter: "'Was not Joseph Smith a money digger?' Yes, but it was never a very profitable job for him, as he only got fourteen dollars a month for it."[80]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_of_Jo...

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#32842 Feb 26, 2014
But using magic ran in the Smith family:

"Beyond the documents indicating that during the 1820s Joseph Smith and his family used divining rods and seer stones as part of the folk magic of treasure seeking, Smith family members themselves provided evidence of their involvement in more esoteric manifestations of Christian occultism. These direct evidences are of two kinds: statements suggesting the family's participation in these activities, and magic artifacts in the early possession of family members according to Smith descendants, relatives, or their Mormon associates.... several of these relics have been preserved through completely separate chains of ownership (i.e., provenance). The magic artifacts attributed to the Smith family and certain statements by family members and early associates either imply or affirm that Joseph Smith and his family believed in and used ritual magic, astrology, talismans, and magic parchments....

Historical understanding cannot grow by ignoring or dismissing evidence that seems unusual or inconsistent with traditional perceptions,...

In response to the affidavits of some Palmyra residents that the Smiths in the 1820s neglected their farm and other necessary work in order to dig for treasure, Lucy Mack Smith seemed to confirm that her family practiced ritual magic. In the first draft of her dictated 1845 history she stated, "let not my reader suppose that because I shall pursue another topic for a season that we stopt our labor and went at trying to win the faculty of Abrac[,] drawing Magic circles or sooth saying [sic] to the neglect of all kinds of buisness [W]e never during our lives suffered one important interest to swallow up every other obligation but whilst we worked with our hands we endeavored to remember the service of & the welfare of our souls"... Joseph Smith's mother did not deny her family's participation in occult activities but simply affirmed that these did not prevent family members from accomplishing other, equally important work....

By the early 1820s, "Faculty of Abrac" had become a well-known phrase linking magic and divinity.... Medieval and early modern magic manuscripts in England used "Abrac" and "Abraca" as one of the names of God in conjurations... As early as 1831, their neighbors stated that both Smith and his father drew circles for treasure hunting...

Confirming these stories, the Hyrum Smith family has preserved as an heirloom the kind of dagger necessary for ritual magic. The first public announcement of its existence was an inventory of Hyrum Smith's "relics" in an authorized biography which described the artifact as "Dagger.... Masonic symbols on blade" (Corbett 1963, 453). Photographs of the dagger have been in print since 1982, and slides of the Smith dagger were screened at a public convention in Salt Lake City in 1985 (Tanner and Tanner 1982a, 3; Tanner and Tanner 1983, 11, 15; Fillerup; figs. 43-44).... the inscriptions on the Smith family dagger have nothing to do with Freemasonry and everything to do with ceremonial magic.... One side of the Smith family dagger is inscribed with the Hebrew word "Adonay," next to which are the astrological symbol of Mars and the magic sigil, or seal, for the Intelligence of Mars. The other side of the dagger is inscribed with the magic seal of Mars..

To be continued...

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#32843 Feb 26, 2014
Possession alone may not be proof of use, but in this case Hyrum Smith, by 1844, possessed an instrument designed for drawing the kind of magic circles that Palmyra neighbors claimed the Smiths were drawing on the ground in the 1820s as part of their treasure-digging activities. In addition, Lucy Smith's manuscript history virtually confirmed the allegation that her husband and son drew magic circles in the 1820s,... Hyrum was the obvious heir of his father's sacred relics at the death of Joseph Sr.... Mars (inscribed on the magic dagger) was the "planet governing" 1771, the year of Joseph Smith Sr.'s birth....

That astrology was important to members of the Smith family is also indicated by both friendly and unfriendly sources. Without giving further details, Brigham Young stated in 1861 that "an effort was made in the days of Joseph to establish astrology" (Young Office Journal, 30 Dec. 1861).... the Hyrum Smith family also possessed magic parchments inscribed with the astrological symbols of the planets and the Zodiac... and the Emma Smith Bidamon family preserved a magic artifact consecrated to Jupiter, the ruling planet of Joseph Smith Jr.'s birth.... Two of the Smith family's magic parchments... depend directly on Ebenezer Sibly's Complete Illustration of the Occult Sciences,... the inscriptions on Joseph Smith's Jupiter talisman indicated its use as an implement in ceremonies of spirit conjuration, and the influential manuscript "Key of Solomon" defined a Jupiter talisman's use strictly in terms of ceremonial magic: "This defendeth and protecteth those who invoke and cause the Spirits to come"... That ceremonial purpose of the Jupiter talisman in Joseph Smith's possession in 1844 was consistent with the ceremonial purposes of the magic parchments in the possession of his brother Hyrum in 1844...(Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, pages 53-58, 69)[2nd Ed. pages 66-73, 85]

On pages 78-79 [2nd Ed., pages 98, 103, 104], Professor Quinn gives this information:

While the Smith family's belief in astrology can be demonstrated only circumstantially and inferentially, the Smiths left direct evidence of their practice of ritual magic. In addition to the magic dagger, among Hyrum Smith's possessions at his death were three parchments — lamens, in occult terms — inscribed with signs and names of ceremonial magic... Like the dagger, photographs of these magic parchments have been in print since 1982 (de Hoyos 1982, 4-22; Tanner and Tanner 1982a, 1-3; Tanner and Tanner 1983, 6-9; Salt Lake Tribune, 24 Aug. 1985, B-1).... The dagger may have belonged originally to Joseph Smith, Sr., and the parchments may be artifacts from the time of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon."

To be continued...

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#32844 Feb 26, 2014
Dr. Quinn feels that the parchments had a definite relationship to money-digging:

That this "Holiness to the Lord" magic parchment was designed to invoke "good spirits" in connection with treasure seeking is suggested by yet another symbol. Directly to the right of the Raphael figure and above the Tetragrammaton figure are three crosses... Although this could be a reference to the crucifixion at Golgotha, Scot defined two separate uses of three crosses, both of which pertained to treasure seeking. First, he specified that "there must be made upon a hazell wand three crosses" as part of "the art and order to be used in digging for monie, revealed by dreames," and later in his discussion he provided an illustration of a shield-symbol with three crosses at the top to summon a spirit "to tell thee of hidden treasures that be in anie place, he will tell it thee: or if thou wilt command him to bring to thee gold or silver, he will bring it thee"... the use of the previously discussed angel symbols from Reginald Scot's 1665 edition of his Discourse indicates that all three Smith family parchments were created to aid treasure seeking. Immediately before Scot's chapter that discussed Jubanladace, Nal-gah, and Pah-li-Pah, the last paragraph of the preceding chapter stated, "When Treasure hath been hid, or any secret thing hath been committed by the party; there is a magical cause of something attracting the starry spirit back again, to the manifestation of that thing. Upon all which, the following Chapters do insist more largely and particularly"... Therefore, the three Smith parchments adopted the names and symbols of Jubanladace directly (and Nal-gah and Pah-li-Pah through Sibly's later version) from a chapter of Scot's 1665 Discourse that provided information about good angels necessary for successful treasure-seeking conjurations.... these two lamens of the Joseph Smith family were designed to be used by an unmarried, pure young man or woman in summoning and communicating with a divine spirit as part of a treasure quest.... the central purpose of the "Holiness to the Lord" parchment was to enable such a pure youth to summon and communicate with a divine spirit as part of a treasure quest, which both Mormon and non-Mormon sources indicated was a preoccupation of the Joseph Smith family only up to 1827.(Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, pages 107-108, 110-111)[2nd Ed. pages 112-113, 115]

The insanity ran in the Smith family, which would shape the young boy.

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