Who says Mormons aren't Christians?

There are 32003 comments on the CNN story from Oct 12, 2011, titled Who says Mormons aren't Christians?. In it, CNN reports that:

Editor's note: Dean Obeidallah is an award-winning comedian who has appeared on TV shows such as Comedy Central's "Axis of Evil" special, ABC's "The View," CNN's "What the Week" and HLN's "The Joy Behar Show." He is executive producer of the annual New York Arab-American Comedy Festival and the Amman Stand Up Comedy Festival.

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“Duty is a Privilege!”

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#23219 Apr 8, 2013
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
The fact is all you have done is make a claim, I have yet to see any proof.
Read a book...

above I gave you a list to start from.

I can't read it for you. I've been telling you to read books from that list for a year now. Yet, you have not opened a book to educate yourself.

“Duty is a Privilege!”

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#23220 Apr 8, 2013
Cfoote wrote:
<quoted text>
...
To a Mormon this story is history, but to historians it is simply a fiction, concocted by Joseph Smith within his "Book of Mormon."
...
If you know so much about what you are talking about... then you will realize there is no way for an uneducated man to set up the Church without help.

Do you think farm boy, with little education, can write the Book of Mormon (with no conflicting statements) and keep it all straight in a 3 month time frame?

“Duty is a Privilege!”

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#23221 Apr 8, 2013
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
How does one write Hebrew in Egyptian "Hieroglyphs"? To write in Hebrew, you would need to use Hebrew characters.
That is not what I said...

He wrote in Egyptian Hieroglyphs the spoken word of Hebrew... Few men were able to have this knowledge... He was among few that traveled to Egypt as part of their trade most likely because Lehi had a trading business in the area..

“Duty is a Privilege!”

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#23222 Apr 8, 2013
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
The fact is all you have done is make a claim, I have yet to see any proof.
You will not read a book... do you declare you can be shown without looking at the evidence for yourself?

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#23223 Apr 9, 2013
sportxmouse wrote:
<quoted text>
Read a book...
above I gave you a list to start from.
I can't read it for you. I've been telling you to read books from that list for a year now. Yet, you have not opened a book to educate yourself.
So, which one tells about the Native Americans have Genesis? Because you know what? I don't think you've read them either. I think you found a list on the web and just reposted it, Carol.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#23224 Apr 9, 2013
sportxmouse wrote:
<quoted text>
You will not read a book... do you declare you can be shown without looking at the evidence for yourself?
Give me the source of your info, I'll look into it. But you have to give it first.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#23225 Apr 9, 2013
sportxmouse wrote:
<quoted text>
If you know so much about what you are talking about... then you will realize there is no way for an uneducated man to set up the Church without help.
Do you think farm boy, with little education, can write the Book of Mormon (with no conflicting statements) and keep it all straight in a 3 month time frame?
No I don't think he could, and he didn't:

19. The book must not contain any absurd, impossible, or contradictory statements. Your history must not contain any statement that will contradict any other statement elsewhere in the volume.

Oh, brother! Here is where the challenge really begins to unravel. A volume unto itself could (and has many times over) be produced to answer this point of challenge. First the absurd: The next to last book in the BOM (the book of Ether) purports to be an account of a migration of people from the Middle East at the time of the confounding of languages at the Tower of Babel. A godly man by the name of Jared and his even godlier brother (and his friends and family) are told by the Lord to migrate to a land across the sea.

The first absurdity we are treated to is the lack of identity of Jared’s brother. Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie said:

“Some of the greatest heavenly manifestations ever vouchsafed to man were given to the Brother of Jared.”23

And yet, we are never given this holy man’s name. He is always addressed as the “brother of Jared.” In fact, in the first six chapters of the Book of Ether he is addressed as “brother of Jared” 46 times,“Jared with his brother” one time,“Jared, his brother” one time,“Jared and his brother” six times,“Jared said unto his brother” three times, and “Jared died, and his brother also” one time. How much easier to just give us the brother’s name.

Next we are treated to a description of the Lord’s revelation for building “barges” to get Jared and his associates across the ocean. I offer the below description without comment. It is up to the reader to judge the absurdity of the narrative.

Ether 2:16-21 —“And the Lord said: Go to work and build, after the manner of barges which ye have hitherto built. And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did go to work, and also his brethren, and built barges after the manner which they had built, according to the instructions of the Lord. And they were small, and they were light upon the water, even like unto the lightness of a fowl upon the water. And they were built after a manner that they were exceedingly tight, even that they would hold water like unto a dish; and the bottom thereof was tight like unto a dish; and the sides thereof were tight like unto a dish; and the ends thereof were peaked; and the top thereof was tight like unto a dish; and the length thereof was the length of a tree; and the door thereof, when it was shut, was tight like unto a dish. And it came to pass that the brother of Jared cried unto the Lord, saying: O Lord, I have performed the work which thou hast commanded me, and I have made the barges according as thou hast directed me. And behold, O Lord, in them there is no light; whither shall we steer? And also we shall perish, for in them we cannot breathe, save it is the air which is in them; therefore we shall perish. And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt make a hole in the top, and also in the bottom; and when thou shalt suffer for air thou shalt unstop the hole and receive air. And if it be so that the water come in upon thee, behold, ye shall stop the hole, that ye may not perish in the flood. And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did so, according as the Lord had commanded.”

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#23226 Apr 9, 2013
Next, I offer a couple of examples of the impossible. Close to the end of the book of Ether, we find ourselves in the New World.

Again we find ourselves in what is to become upper New York State, near a hill that will one day be named Cumorah and once again we are witnesses to an epic battle. The descendants of Jared (led by King Coriantumr) are about to be annihilated by the armies of an evil king named Shiz. Coriantumr is wounded and carried away to recuperate. Here we pick up the story:

Ether 15:1-2 —“And it came to pass when Coriantumr had recovered of his wounds, he began to remember the words which Ether had spoken unto him. He saw that there had been slain by the sword already nearly two millions of his people, and he began to sorrow in his heart; yea, there had been slain two millions of mighty men, and also their wives and their children.”

Even if only half of the two million mighty men had only one wife and one child, that would put the casualty list at four million, and that doesn’t account for fatalities in Shiz’s army! This number matches about one half of all the military deaths of World War I.24

And all without benefit of modern weapons or a war of many years duration!

The last impossibility is the demise of Shiz himself.

Ether 15:29-31 —“Wherefore, he did pursue them, and on the morrow he did overtake them; and they fought again with the sword. And it came to pass that when they had all fallen by the sword, save it were Coriantumr and Shiz, behold Shiz had fainted with the loss of blood. And it came to pass that when Coriantumr had leaned upon his sword, that he rested a little, he smote off the head of Shiz. And it came to pass that after he had smitten off the head of Shiz, that Shiz raised up on his hands and fell; and after that he had struggled for breath, he died.”

As I try to construct a mind picture of this tableau, I wonder which part of Shiz was struggling for breath, the headless torso or the severed head? Also, the idea that a headless body would raise itself up on its hands is quite ludicrous.

http://www.pfo.org/bomchllg.htm

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#23227 Apr 9, 2013
sportxmouse wrote:
<quoted text>
That is not what I said...
He wrote in Egyptian Hieroglyphs the spoken word of Hebrew... Few men were able to have this knowledge... He was among few that traveled to Egypt as part of their trade most likely because Lehi had a trading business in the area..
That is exactly what you said: "Lehi was an educated man who wrote Hebrew language in Egyptian Hieroglyphs..."

“Truth Seeker ”

Since: Mar 13

Location hidden

#23228 Apr 9, 2013
All Mormons should see this latest testament of Jesus Christ on YouTube. It's a short video.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#23229 Apr 9, 2013
Trouble in Paradise?

Elder Julio Enrique Dávila of the Seventy left the Mormon church, he found out that it is a fraud

He was a member of the Second Quorum of the Seventy of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) from 1991 to 1996. He was the first person from Colombia to be a general authority of the LDS Church.

Dávila was born in Bucaramanga, Colombia. Dávila was raised primarily in Cartagena. After graduating from college, he moved to Bogotá where he met Mary Zapata, whom he married in 1958. They became the parents of two daughters.

Dávila joined the LDS Church at the age of 36 in 1968. Dávila served as a branch president, and in district presidencies. On 1977-05-23, Dávila became the first president of the Bogotá Stake—the first stake of the LDS Church in Colombia.

In 1972, Dávila began working for the Church Educational System (CES). He became a full-time employee of CES in 1973. From 1981 to 1984, Dávila served as president of the Colombia Cali Mission of the church Dávila was the first Colombian to serve as a mission president in the church.

Dávila served twice as a regional representative, which calling he held when he was called to the Second Quorum of the Seventy. He was called to the Second Quorum of the Seventy in 1991, where he served for five years. Released in 1996, he spent most of his service as a general authority in Latin America. For part of this time, he was in the presidency of the South America North Area of the church.

https://www.facebook.com/LDSFacts

Looking for confirmation.

Since: Jun 09

Schenectady, NY

#23230 Apr 9, 2013
sportxmouse wrote:
<quoted text>
If you know so much about what you are talking about... then you will realize there is no way for an uneducated man to set up the Church without help.
Do you think farm boy, with little education, can write the Book of Mormon (with no conflicting statements) and keep it all straight in a 3 month time frame?
I thought the Angel Morini who revealed the tablets was helping. I would have thought like the Bible the Book of Mormon would be an inspired work of God.. Unforntunately it isn't. It is a book of fiction made up by a convict (yes Joseph was arrested in Palmyra, and in South Bainbridge) he was no more than a con artist) This was 4 years before he concocted the Book of Mormon. Court documents prove he was a convicted criminal.

So who am I to believe, a convict or the Most High God?

I'm going to say God on this one

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#23231 Apr 9, 2013
Interesting:

The Unknown Story of Julio Davila, General Authority

Julio Davila is a former 70 from Colombia. In the mid-90's Colombian became a focus for the church- Calling authorities from there, temple, etc. They believed that since the risk of kidnapings and attacks on church facilities was dwindiling, that this would be the next Brasil.

Enter Julio. He was called to the 2nd quorum of the 70's. Spoke at general conference, he was a gifted speaker and then he dissapeared...well my father and I know Julio well, this is what happened:

Julio came to Salt Lake often for his calling. During these trips he received his 2nd annointing. After a lifetime of service, He began to realize that church was not at all what he was led to believe.

Julio has a secretary. Julio had an affair with this secretary. Julio took her as a "second wife". Julio was one of the few GA's ever to want to go public, despite the affair about the church. The church reminded him of his legal (contractual and financial) obligations to the church. Julio quietly moved to Mexico City, where he resides this day with his secretary.

A few years ago, my dad called him. My dad wanted to know if he would help with a non-profit effort in Colombia.

He greeted him- Brother Davila, how nice to hear your voice! Davila responded- I am not your brother, please dont call me your brother. He explained to my dad that the church would have a hard time getting anyone of color into the 70 or the 12 becuase white people are culturally willing to see the fraud and think that it is for a grander course, while minorities tend to see it, take it and live it all literally.

Needless to say Julio was pissed he was contacted and was ansked to be left along. This of course ecalated to a massive call/ love bombing by another friend. Julio responded that being in or out of the church was not a matter of following Jesus, or of even belief, it was a matter of what set of lies you believed or could not believe. He asked to never be contacted again. That he came to know this was not christ's church and that no ammount of good intentions, group think, or apologies would make it christ's church and that he had no interest in it at that point. He said that he was ecouraged to look past the faults, becuase he was told these were the faults of well meaning men.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#23232 Apr 9, 2013
I wonder how many GA's have simple dissapeared into oblivion, how many know what fraud this is, how many have been kept silenced.
Can you elaborate on what these obligations are. I've suspected that the cult used some kind of legal means to keep people quiet. Perhaps giving them loans that can be called due of they step out of line. Can you tell us more about this point?
May dad was a church employee for 20 years before he left. I myself did a bit of consulting for them 15 years ago. This is what I have learned myself:

Intellectual reserve, the legal proprietary arm of the church, makes you sign a contract. You cannot disclose what you did for them, how much you were paid or that you were hired as a contractor (I was). You cannot keep copies of the work, talk or publish it, it is owned it its entirety by the church. General authorities (I don't know of this applies to 2nd quorum of the 70's) sign over their property over to a trust, if you violate your contract they keep your property.

What I have researched and heard from other ex- leaders: Since the time of BY, the church "lends" money to GA's for personal projects. This money is interest free and does not have to be repaid (this is for legal, tax and doctrinal reasons) if you tow the line. If you step out of line it becomes due and it is a lien on your property. Any income from sitting on boards, as director, consultant, etc- which is what the 12 spend most of their time doing, you keep, if you leave, since you are a representative of the church on those boards, you lose and may have to pay back. of course you loose your "living expenses" (60-120K), your access to church property for personal use (Hawaii, Florida, Europe, etc)

This is how a "humble" life long seminary teacher (BKP) or meager church employee (GBH) can end up as millionaires as pass on significant wealth to family members. If you step out of line, its all gone and you are in serious legal trouble.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php...

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#23233 Apr 9, 2013
http://mormondisclosures.blogspot.com/2013/04...

On April 6, 2013 Grant Palmer, former CES teacher and author of two outstanding books (1 & 2) on issues in the LDS church, released a statement through an anonymous blog about his meeting with mission presidents and a first quorum of the seventy member of the LDS church.

Many many people have called the account fable and rumor. I’ve heard these experiences since last November, and Grant alluded to them (with the mission presidents) in the exmormon foundation conference (where he also mentioned my public resignation) last October (2012). Late Sunday (April 7), Grant reconfirmed to me personally that the account is indeed from him and that the unnamed General Authority (GA) is fully aware of its posting. That does not mean that the opinions given by the mission president or GA are fact. Here are some of the statements and claims, bulleted. I want it to be very clear that I believe Grant Palmer is of the highest integrity. That some of the claims aren't factual doesn't mean Grant has failed in reporting what he has experienced. It is what it is. Now onto the claims.

The plot thickens....

Since: Oct 08

Location hidden

#23234 Apr 9, 2013
Dana Robertson wrote:
http://mormondisclosures.blogs pot.com/2013/04/rumor-rumor-ev ery-where-nor-any-fact-to.html
On April 6, 2013 Grant Palmer, former CES teacher and author of two outstanding books (1 & 2) on issues in the LDS church, released a statement through an anonymous blog about his meeting with mission presidents and a first quorum of the seventy member of the LDS church.
Many many people have called the account fable and rumor. I’ve heard these experiences since last November, and Grant alluded to them (with the mission presidents) in the exmormon foundation conference (where he also mentioned my public resignation) last October (2012). Late Sunday (April 7), Grant reconfirmed to me personally that the account is indeed from him and that the unnamed General Authority (GA) is fully aware of its posting. That does not mean that the opinions given by the mission president or GA are fact. Here are some of the statements and claims, bulleted. I want it to be very clear that I believe Grant Palmer is of the highest integrity. That some of the claims aren't factual doesn't mean Grant has failed in reporting what he has experienced. It is what it is. Now onto the claims.
The plot thickens....
A religion run by the mob and the Klan

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#23235 Apr 9, 2013
NoMo wrote:
<quoted text>
A religion run by the mob and the Klan
While I have no doubt that many of the GA's are true believers, I also think some are not and are just in it for the money and power.

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#23236 Apr 9, 2013
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
Everybody who has a D&C has been given it. It has been revealed to them. The stupidity and ignorance is yours.
There are days it amazes me you can tie your own shoes with what you write.
What should amaze you is for 30 years as a Mormon you never paid attention in Sunday school or priesthood meetings to hear the teacher on occasion state polygamy wasn't a law given to every elder under Smith and Young. And now that you have stated an out right pathetic lie that polygamy was given as a law for every elder to obey which it wasn't, now you don't have the decent honesty to admit you were wrong. So now you'd rather continue with your lie and maintain the status as a liar which you don't seem to mind being.
Being honest isn't hard. But maintaining the stupid pathetic ignorant lie you're maintaining because you can't be honest, that's true proven stupidity and ignorance. But you keep at what you do best, being dishonest in the face of historical facts.

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#23237 Apr 9, 2013
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
Everybody who has a D&C has been given it. It has been revealed to them. The stupidity and ignorance is yours.
There are days it amazes me you can tie your own shoes with what you write.
Since you suffer brain farts that prevent you from remembering how to do research on the internet, pretend this writing is a towel for you to wipe the crap from your brain so you can digest the information intelligently for a moment okay?
"The history of polygamy begins in ancient times and is recorded in the Bible. Some of the men who practiced plural marriage then were sinning because they had not specifically been commanded by God to do so. Joseph Smith stated:“I have constantly said no man shall have but one wife at a time, unless the Lord directs otherwise”(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, page 324)."
Now please read again s-l-o-w-l-y....
Joseph Smith stated:“I have constantly said no man shall have but one wife at a time, unless the Lord directs otherwise”(UNLESS THE LORD DIRECTS OTHERWISE)(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, page 324)."

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#23238 Apr 9, 2013
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't see a "do it and shut up" statement. I see more of "it's your choice" statement.
But you are famous for seeing things that are not even there, like teachings for eternal marriage. LOL!!!!
lol...that's because as with Monson's statement, there wasn't a "do it and shut up" statement as you made a lie about. I just did as you did and you find me wrong? How fricking hypocritical of you as is normal...lol.

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