What Does the Bible Say? The New Discussion Thread

On #4, I think you meant Restoration movement...

you are doing a good job, though-that covers many of them-especially number 18 and 24-those are two that I REALLY find illogical!!

Katherine

Amen!!! and He said it to leaders of the Jewish denomination called the Pharisees.

I'm sorry for misspelling your name. It was not intentional.

Yes, and you should learn from what He told them-because you are doing the same thing-straining many a gnat and shutting the kingdom of heaven in men's faces-although you have no authority to do so.

No problem-I didn't figure you were :)

DMH

"On #4, I think you meant Restoration movement..."

- yep. thanks for catching that

DMH

"Heath, does this answer your question or do you have an answer for these?"

- I am sure he has multiple unbiased, pieces of scholarship ready to post; however, he has been pretty busy attacking Baptists on another thread.

JP Manzi

Greencastle, PA

I am looking forward to the copy/paste job from a Wayne Jackson article.

PS23LH

Royse City, TX

Thanks for that list I will have to print that out so I don't have to keep jumping back to page 52. Good stuff.

Heath

DMH wrote:

"Now that is a very, very serious charge. Could you please name at least two man-made doctrines in the Church of Christ?"
Sure.
- These only apply to CoC members who feel they are the "only" ones correct on these subjects.
1. the Bible commands us to take the Lord's Supper every Sunday morning. Those who do not do so are not following the Lord's command
2. It is a sin to drink alcohol
3. "Church of Christ" is the best name for the church
4. The "Church of Christ" of today existed before the American Reformation movement
5. It is a sin to dance
6. If a divorced person is remarried, and the prior marriage ended for a reason other than sexual sin, he must divorce his current wife to be allowed in the Church
- God hates divorce, so we must create two divorces
7. all other denominations are wrong in their interpretion of the Bible
8. It is wrong to have a choir in worship service
9. It is wrong to use instruments in a worship service
10. one must have mental awareness that they are being baptized for their remission of sins at the time of baptism
11. baptism is by emersion only
12. it is wrong to use congregational money to support orphan's homes and CoC colleges (this does not apply to all CoCs)
13. the COC is not a denomination
14. all first century churches were identical in form and practice
15. God commands us to conform to the 1st century church
That's just the start.

1. Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 11
2.Greek word for sober means "free from wine" 1 Peter 4:3
3.Never taught that. We should call God's church what He calls it.
4.Rom. 16:16
5.Not for married couples who wish to have sex after intimate dancing arouses desire.
6. Matt. 5:32; 19:9
7.Col. 3:17 denominations have no authority from Christ to exist.
8.Eph. 5:19; Col.3:16 Paul commands the church (not the choir) to sing.
9.No command for instruments in N.T.(see # 8)
10.Acts 2:38 if not then why did Peter tell us what it's for?
11.Baptism is only immersion in the Greek Rom. 6:1-6; Col. 2:12.
12.That is matter of opinion that brethren differ on yet still maintain fellowship James 1:27.
13.If you only follow God's word you won't be a denomination Luke 8:11.
14.1 Cor. 1:10; 7:17.
15.Why would you want to conform to anything else?
The church Christ established needs no improvement (Matt. 16:18-19).

Did you think this would be hard?

Keep trying! ;)

www.roysecitycoc.org

Heath

JP Manzi wrote:

This is a fun game...
16. They were talking about grape juice in the bible not literal alcoholic wine.
17. It is sinful to clap during singing.
18. Women can not stand at the table to pass out the Lords Supper but they can do it sitting down passing it left to right.
19. There is absolutely nothing about the bread or fruit of the vine being placed on a table in front of the auditorium (sanctuary)(Nothing wrong with it, buts its a man-made tradition.
20. There legally is a certain pattern to follow in worship.
21. The thief on the cross did not have to be baptized because he was under the Old Convenant.
Want more Heath?

16.Wine in the Greek has a dual meaning- intoxicating and nonintoxicating. Only alcohol drinking "christians" insist Christ became a divine bar tender in John 2.
17.Col. 3:17 no authority for clapping in our singing
18.That is taking a lead in worship and women are to be in submission 1 Tim. 2.
19.That's just stupid at best. Keep trying!
20.John 4:23-24 you believe that to certain degree, or do you pray to Marry? ;)
21.You gave a true statement here. Besides, he could not have been baptized with N.T. baptism Rom. 6:1-6.

Bring on some more!

Heath

JP Manzi wrote:

22. You can only be called a preacher, a minister or an evangelist. Calling a preacher a pastor or a reverend is WRONG!
I always liked that one.

22. You don't call a cat a dog. They are not the same thing. If you knew your Bible you'd know a praecher is not called a patsor in the Bible (1&2 Timothy; Titus)

How do you like that?

Katherine

None of those verses prove anything that he claimed-they may have given examples, but still did not prove many of the typical CoC beliefs.

Keep trying! ;)

JP Manzi

Greencastle, PA

"If you only follow God's word you won't be a denomination"

I am serious when I ask this: Do you honestly believe what you just wrote here?

Also, you did not do a good job at refuting the list. You quotes isolated verses to defend these man-made practices. Nice try.

DMH

Well,

At least he kind of posted his own thoughts on scripture.

Thank you for that Heath.

Heath

DMH wrote:

23. God allows songbooks and song leaders as necessary expedients, even though they are not authorized by scriptures.
24. Attempting to authorize the use of musical instruments by quoting Old Testament scripture is wrong because we are not under the old law. However, the Lord's doctrine of silence is clearly illustrated in the Old Testament stories of Noah, Nadab and Abihu, and Uzzah to disprove instrument worship!
25. The New Testament is littered with 1st century churches using spiritual gifts. These gifts have gone away. Anyone that views this differently is either dishonest or mislead.
26. Baptists believe you can do whatever you please due to the once saved always saved doctrine.

23. Anything that helps carry out the will of God without altering it is an expedient 1 Cor. 10:16 "cup".
24.Attempting to authorize the use of musical instruments by quoting Old Testament scripture is wrong because we are not under the old law. Good answer Heb 8.
25.The New Testament is littered with 1st century churches using spiritual gifts. These gifts have gone away. Anyone that views this differently is either dishonest or mislead. Again, good answer 1 Cor. 13.
26.Well, let me allow a couple of Baptist preachers to answer that one-

Sam Morris, Baptist preacher in Stamford, TX wrote an article entitled, "Do A Christian's sins damn his souls"? Here is a quote from the article: "We take the position that a Christian's sins do not damn his soul. The way a Christian lives, what he says, his character, his conduct, or his attitude toward other people have nothing whatever to do with the salvation of his souls...And all the sins he may commit from murder to idolatry will not make his soul in any more danger.

Bill Foster, Baptist preacher in Louisville KY made this comment: "If I killed my wife and mother and debauched a thousand women I couldn't go to hell--in fact, I couldn't go to hell if I wanted to."

Need I say more?

Heath

Katherine, JP, DMH

It is a sin to pray to the virgin Marry YES or NO

If YES provide the passage that says so.

Heath

Katherine, JP, DMH

It is a sin to pray to the virgin Marry? YES or NO

If YES provide the passage that says so.

Katherine

That's true-thank you for answering, even if it still did not prove your point.

PS23LH

Royse City, TX

In 1 Peter 4:3 where is the word sober used in regards to "free from wine"?

KJV For the time past of [our] life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

NASB For the time already past is sufficient {for}{you} to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness, carousing, drinking parties and abominable idolatries.

ESV The time that is past suffices for doing what the Gentiles want to do, living in sensuality, passions, drunkenness, orgies, drinking parties, and lawless idolatry

NIV For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do–living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry.

Delilah

New Albany, MS

I love the way c of C folks know so much of what other denominations believe --and so free to criticize what they "believe". And yet, when I've sat down to talk to other denominations (and c of C IS a denomination, no matter what anyone says), I find there is very little differences in matters of salvations. The major differencs are in matters of manmade doctrine, many of which are mentioned and listed above that Heath attempted to defend.

DMH