God is Imaginary
Posted in the Rome Forum
#2 Feb 19, 2013
If the Bible is literally true, then something is seriously amiss. Simply look at the facts. In Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:
Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
If "every one who asks receives", then if we ask for cancer to be cured, it should be cured. Right? If "our Father who is in heaven gives good things to those who ask him", then if we ask him to cure cancer, he should cure it. Right? And yet nothing happens.
In Matthew 17:20 Jesus says:
For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain,'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.
If "nothing will be impossible to you", then if we ask to cure cancer tonight, cancer should disappear. Right? Yet nothing happens. Note that if we take the Bible less-than-literally here, the statement "nothing will be impossible to you" becomes "lots of things will be impossible to you," and that would mean that Jesus is lying.
In Matthew 21:21:
I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain,'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.
If "you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer", then if we ask to cure cancer tonight, cancer should dissappear. Right? Yet nothing happens. Note again that there is not a non-literal way to interpret "you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer", unless you replace "whatever" with "nothing" or "little."
The message is reiterated Mark 11:24:
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
If God says, "believe that you have received it, and it will be yours," and if we believe in God and his power, then what should happen if we pray to cure cancer tonight? It should be cured. Either that, or God is lying.
#3 Feb 19, 2013
If you would like additional proof, gather a million faithful believers together into a giant prayer circle. Have them all pray together in Jesus' name that God cures every case of cancer on the planet tomorrow. Pray sincerely, knowing that when God answers this completely heartfelt, unselfish, non-materialistic prayer, it will glorify God and help millions of people in remarkable ways. Now, we certainly have two or more people gathered together, and they have asked in Jesus' name, and we have not one but a million faithful believers who, by definition, have faith and believe. We have fulfilled every one of Jesus' requirements.
Will Jesus answer the prayer now? Of course not. Your prayer will go unanswered, in direct defiance to Jesus' promises in the Bible. In fact, if you pray for anything that is impossible, your prayer will always go unanswered.
If you are an intelligent, rational human being, all of the examples mentioned above show you that the God of the Bible is imaginary. The Bible clearly promises that God answers prayers. Yet when we pray, nothing happens (for a complete discussion proving that nothing happens, please see this page). What Jesus says about prayer in the Bible clearly is not true. Therefore, one of two things must be happening:
God is imaginary.
God does exist, but he never answers prayers. Unfortunately, God is defined by the Bible to be a prayer-answering being. The contradiction between the reality of God and the definition of God proves that God is imaginary.
In fact, we have ample scientific evidence to demonstrate that the belief in prayer is nothing but pure superstition, as shown in the next proof...
Since: Dec 11
#4 Feb 19, 2013
On judgement day, I wouldn't want to be in your shoes. I hope you change your mind before that day. GOD BLESS.
#5 Feb 19, 2013
Today, I wouldn't want to be in your shoes. I hope you learn to read and understand the natural world before the morning. Reality, it's what's for breakfast.
#6 Feb 19, 2013
Proof #2 - Statistically analyze prayer
The fact is, God never answers any prayers. The entire idea that "God answers prayers" is an illusion created by human imagination.
How do we know that "answered prayers" are illusions? We simply perform scientific experiments. We ask a group of believers to pray for something and then we watch what happens. What we find, whenever we test the efficacy of prayer scientifically, is that prayer has zero effect:
It does not matter who prays.
It does not matter if we pray to God, Allah, Vishnu, Zeus, Ra or any other human god.
It does not matter what we pray about.
If we perform scientific, double-blind tests on prayer, and if the prayers involve something concrete and measurable (for example, healing people with cancer), we know that there is zero effect from prayer. Every single "answered prayer" is nothing more than a coincidence. Both scientific experiments and your everyday observations of the world show this to be the case every single time.
For example, this article says:
One of the most scientifically rigorous studies yet, published earlier this month, found that the prayers of a distant congregation did not reduce the major complications or death rate in patients hospitalized for heart treatments.
A review of 17 past studies of ''distant healing," published in 2003 by a British researcher, found no significant effect for prayer or other healing methods.
This article from March, 2006 discusses the fact that the same conclusion was reached in another study:
In the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.
In this article we find an amazing quote where theologians and religious leaders declare that prayer has no actual effect:
Religious leaders will breathe a sigh of relief at the news that so-called intercessory prayer is medically ineffective. In a large and much touted scientific study, one group of patients was told that strangers would pray for them, a second group was told strangers might or might not pray for them, and a third group was not prayed for at all. The $2.4 million study found that the strangers' prayers did not help patients' recovery.
#7 Feb 19, 2013
This is a remarkable example of "positive spin" -- religious leaders are "breathing a sigh of relief" because prayer has been shown to be meaningless. The fact that prayer is a total waste of time does not matter to them. It does not matter that all of Jesus' promises about prayer in the Bible have been proven completely false.
A peer-reviewed scientific study published in 2001 did indicate that prayer works. According to this article:
"On October 2, 2001, the New York Times reported that researchers at prestigious Columbia University Medical Center in New York had discovered something quite extraordinary. Using virtually foolproof scientific methods the researchers had demonstrated that infertile women who were prayed for by Christian prayer groups became pregnant twice as often as those who did not have people praying for them. The study was published in the Journal of Reproductive Medicine. Even the researchers were shocked. The study's results could only be described as miraculous."
This study was later proven to be completely fraudulent. However, everyone who cut out the original article in the NYTimes and posted it on their refrigerators still has that article as "proof" that prayer works.
This article entitled A prayer before dying uncovers another case where a "scientific study" of prayer is unmasked as fraudulent.
It's not just prayer that is ineffective. Not even a hopeful attitude helps. According to this article:
A positive attitude does not improve the chances of surviving cancer and doctors who encourage patients to keep up hope may be burdening them, according to the results of research released Monday.
The dictionary defines the word "superstition" in this way:
An irrational belief that an object, action, or circumstance not logically related to a course of events influences its outcome.[ref]
The belief in prayer is a superstition. It has been proven scientifically over and over again. When a prayer appears to be answered, it is a coincidence. Quite simply, prayer has absolutely no effect on the outcome of any event. The "power of prayer" is actually "the power of coincidence."
Therefore, as in Proof #1, one of two things must be happening:
God is imaginary.
God does exist, but he never answers prayers. Unfortunately, God is defined by the Bible to be a prayer-answering being. The contradiction between the reality of God and the definition of God proves that God is imaginary.
Prayer does not work because God is completely imaginary.
#8 Feb 19, 2013
All I can say is that I did not believe but now I have faith and God has miraculously healed me directly from prayer. There is no valid medical explanation as to why I am alive and typing this response now.
I have no intention of debating you on this issue - I simply know what I know and you can believe what you believe.
I do not know who you are but I will be praying that you will somehow find out that God is real and accept Him through His son Jesus.
#9 Feb 19, 2013
I don't know so therefore god. Real intellectual process you've got there. Personal experience is not evidence of miracles or god.
How are you so sure it was your god and not Zeus, Apollo, Athena, ra, Horus, Thor, Allah or any of the other 5,000 + gods that have been created by man.
I love when you people say "there's no explanation, it's a miracle". You people and your god of the gaps.
You're not gonna debate me? You did. You clearly stated that my position is false but did not provide any evidence to prove your extravagant claim of the contrary position except to provide an argument from ignorance.
#10 Feb 19, 2013
Oh, and if you believe god is real and answers your prayers, you must be one real selfish individual. You must never ask god to end starvation, disease, pain, suffering, rape, murder, child abuse or any of the other millions of atrocities that your omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent god created.
Jesus is Santa for grown ups.
#11 Feb 19, 2013
Proof #3 - Look at historical gods
The belief in "god" seems to be ubiquitous through the ages.
We know, for example, that the ancient Egyptians believed in their gods so fervently that they built massive structures like the Great Pyramid -- still today one of the largest and most enduring human constructions ever created. Despite that fervor, however, we know with complete certainty today that the Egyptian gods were imaginary. There is no evidence of their existence. Thus we do not build pyramids anymore and we do not mummify our leaders.
More recently we know that tens of millions of Romans worshiped Jupiter and his friends, and to them they built magnificent temples. The ruins of these temples are popular tourist attractions even today. Yet we know with complete certainty that these gods were imaginary. There is no evidence for their existence and thus no one worships Zeus any more.
Much more recently, we know that the Aztec civilization believed in their gods so intensely that they constructed huge temples and pyramids. In addition, Aztecs were so zealous that they were sacrificing hundreds of human beings to their gods as recently as the 16th century. Despite the intensity, however, we know today that these gods were completely imaginary. The Aztecs were insane to be murdering people for their gods. Killing a person has no effect on rainfall or anything else. We all know that. And there is no evidence whatsoever demonstrating that the Aztec gods exist. If the Aztec gods were real, we would still be offering sacrifices to them and these sacrifices would be effective.
Today's "God" is just as imaginary as were these historical gods. The fact that millions of people worship a god is meaningless.
#12 Feb 19, 2013
The "God" and the "Jesus" that Christians worship today are actually amalgams formed out of ancient pagan gods. The idea of a "virgin birth", "burial in a rock tomb", "resurrection after 3 days" and "eating of body and drinking of blood" had nothing to do with Jesus. All of the rituals in Christianity are completely man-made. Christianity is a snow ball that rolled over a dozen pagan religions. As the snowball grew, it freely attached pagan rituals and beliefs in order to be more palatable to converts. You can find accounts like these in popular literature:
"The vestiges of pagan religion in Christian symbology are undeniable. Egyptian sun disks became the halos of Catholic saints. Pictograms of Isis nursing her miraculously conceived son Horus became the blueprint for our modern images of the Virgin Mary nursing Baby Jesus. And virtually all the elements of the Catholic ritual - the miter, the altar, the doxology, and communion, the act of "God-eating" - were taken directly from earlier pagan mystery religions."
"Nothing in Christianity is original. The pre-Christian God Mithras - called the Son of God and the Light of the World - was born on December 25, died, was buried in a rock tomb, and then resurrected in three days. By the way, December 25 is also the birthday or Osiris, Adonis, and Dionysus. The newborn Krishna was presented with gold, frankincense, and myrrh. Even Christianity's weekly holy day was stolen from the pagans."
This article points out that, "It has been noted since antiquity, and in modern scholarship since the 19th century, that Jesus Christ has striking parallels to other deities worshipped in Hellenistic religion, specifically to the cult of Dionysus in the Greek mystery religions and with the Buddha." The article goes on to demonstrate striking similarities between Christianity and the religions that came before it.
It is extremely hard for a Christian believer to process this data, but nonetheless it is true. All of the "sacred rituals" of Christianity, and all of Christianity's core beliefs (virgin birth, resurrection, etc.) come straight from other religions that were popular around the time of Jesus. Articles like this and this can help you learn more. Once you understand the fundamental truth of Christianity's origins, the silliness of the whole thing becomes apparent.
Obviously the pagan believers, from whom Christianity derived its myths, worshiped gods that were imaginary. If Gods such as Horus, Ra, Mithras, etc. were real, we would have proof of their existence and everyone would be following those gods. Our "God" and "Jesus" today are simply extensions of these imaginary forerunners. Therefore God is imaginary.
#13 Feb 19, 2013
Proof #4 - Think about science
Notice what happens when anyone is "miraculously cured". A person is sick, the person prays (or a prayer circle prays for the person) and the person is cured. A religious person looks at it and says, "God performed a miracle because of prayer!" That is the end of it.
A scientist looks at it in a very different way. A scientist looks at it and says, "Prayer had nothing to do with it - there is a natural cause for what we see here. If we understand the natural cause, then we can heal many more people suffering from the same condition."
In other words, it is only by assuming that the belief in prayer is a superstition and therefore God is imaginary that science can proceed.
#14 Feb 20, 2013
It's truly sad that you don't believe. I would not want to be in your shoes on judgement day either. Have you never heard the phrase: Id rather live my life believing and die to find out there is not a God than to live my life as if there is not a God and to die to find out there is. He is real. He still performs miracles. They don't happen in our time, they happen in his. I will be praying for you.
Since: Jun 12
#15 Feb 20, 2013
If there is no God, then those that believe risk nothing. If there is a God, the non believers risk everything.
#16 Feb 21, 2013
I know there is a God and he sent his son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for the sins of the world, I believe In him and when I was 13 I ask
Him to come into my heart. I now have a peace in my heart and know that I have a savior who loves me and cares for me and is big enough to take care of any problem I have, I also know that when I die I will spend eternity in heaven, with my loved ones that have gone homr before me.
#17 Feb 21, 2013
Cool story, bro.
So, how do you know there is a god? What happened that made you think a god exists? I mean, did you wake up and have an epiphany? No, not likely. What more than likely happened is you were indoctrinated into believing in your god by your parents, same as for all other people of all faiths. You were taught that you had to believe in a homicidal maniac who gives you free will that you must use to worship him or you face an eternity in a hell he created because he made you a worthless sinner who must beg for forgiveness because some dude made of clay (gumby) listened to some chick that was made from his clay rib listened to a talking serpent and a te a fruit from a tree that he created that contained all the knowledge in the world but you weren't supposed to eat it. Seems legit, right?
Jesus. There is NO evidence this guy ever existed. He is not mentioned in any contemporary texts, yet there were dozens of historians alive iat the time who documented everything. Yet, when the most important person ever, the savior of humanity is born, not a single mention of him is made until 70+ years after his supposed death. Don't you think someone of such great importance would have had hundreds of biographers documenting his every movement, word, bowel movement? Hell, look at Kim kardashian she's got an unlimited number of reporters and paparazzi up her tail reporting everything she does. Again, not likely he ever existed. Oh, and if he did he would not be a blue eyes anglosaxon like you would like to think. He was a middle eastern Jew.
Heaven? Celestial North Korea. You get to go to a place where you worship and give praise to the lord for all of eternity. You'll get to frolic with your family members for ever and ever. How sweet. Question, which version of you goes to heaven. Teenage you? Mid twenties you? Deathbed you? If your body remains here how will you recognize your relatives? We remember who people are by their face and sometimes the sound of their voice, in heaven neither of those things will be there.
You see, you believe a fairy tale told to children to help them cope with the fact that we will all die. If we were to withhold religion from being taught to children until they reached the age of 18 it is guaranteed that no one would believe.
#18 Feb 21, 2013
What if you worship the wrong god?
What if the real true god hates belief?
What if by going to church and praying you are disobeying his rules that are unknown to you?
What if this god is all knowing and knows you only believe to be "on the safe side" and he really hates that and sends you to hell.
This is a flawed argument.
At the end of the day it's your actions define who you are, not your beliefs.
Good without god(s).
#19 Feb 21, 2013
Wow, it's truly sad that you fail to accept reality and delude yourself with the fairy tales of ancient goat herders. That you need a skydaddy to keep tabs on you so that you can keep yourself in line.
Have you ever the phrase "Pascals wager"? Look it up and see all the things wrong in such a belief structure.
Saying he's real doesn't make him real.
What miracles is this sadist still performing? What miracles did he ever perform?
Cancer, still here. Starvation, still here. Child molestation, happening in his house. Inequality, still here. Racism, still here. Rape, he condones it. Slavery, he condones that too and tells you how to sell your daughter and how much she's worth.
I know, you're going to blame satan for all that. Think about this. If your god is all powerful, all good, all knowing. Why did he create the devil knowing that he was going to cause such atrocities? Either he's not good, not all powerful, not all knowing or he doesn't exist. I'm going with the latter.
#20 Feb 21, 2013
"God's plan" is the way that Christians traditionally explain things like amputations, cancer, hurricanes and car accidents. For example, if a Christian dies a painful and tragic death because of cancer, she dies as part of God's plan. Her death has a purpose. God called her home for a reason. Even if something bad happens to a Christian, it is actually good because it is part of God's plan.
You can see how pervasive "God's plan" is by looking in Christian inspirational literature. For example, if we look in the book A Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren, we find this remarkable paragraph in Chapter 2:
Because God made you for a reason, he also decided when you would be born and how long you would live. He planned the days of your life in advance, choosing the exact time of your birth and death. The Bible says, "You saw me before I was born and scheduled each day of my life before I began to breathe. Every day was recorded in your book!" [Psalm 139:16]
There is also this:
Regardless of the circumstances of your birth or who your parents are, God had a plan in creating you.
Under this view of the universe, God plans everything.
Take a moment and think about what Rick Warren said. Rick said, "He planned the days of your life in advance, choosing the exact time of your birth and death." Let's examine one simple implication of this statement. What this means is that God has pre-planned every abortion that has taken place on our planet.
If the concept of "God's plan" is true, you can first of all see that God wants us to be aborting children. Every single abortion is planned by God, so God must be doing it for a reason. Second, you can see that both the mother who requests the abortion and the doctor who performs it are blameless. Since it is God who planned the abortion of the child (God chose the "exact time" of the death, according to Rick Warren), the mother and doctor are simply puppets who are fulfilling God's plan, are they not? What about all the Christians who are fighting against abortion? If abortion is part of God's plan, why are they fighting it? God is the all-powerful ruler of the universe, and his plan is for more than a million children a year to die in the United States through abortion.[ref] If God's plan is true, then each one of those abortions was meticulously planned by God.
If God does not intend for us to perform abortions, is Rick Warren then wrong that God has a plan? If God has a plan, is he not the direct cause of every abortion? Simply think it through, and you will begin to see the problems in Rick's proposition.
#21 Feb 21, 2013
Think about Adolph Hitler. He was evil incarnate, and Hitler is well known for the atrocious things he did. What I would like you to do right now is to consider this statement: "Hitler is part of God's Plan." Think about what Rick said:
He planned the days of your life in advance, choosing the exact time of your birth and death. The Bible says, "You saw me before I was born and scheduled each day of my life before I began to breathe. Every day was recorded in your book!" [Psalm 139:16]
Rick also says:
God never does anything accidentally, and he never makes mistakes. He has a reason for everything he creates. Every plant and every animal was planned by God, and every person was designed with a purpose in mind.
If God has a divine plan for each of us, then he had a divine plan for Hitler too. It is when you stop to think about it deeply that the contradictions hit you.
Now let's imagine that you say a prayer in this sort of universe. What difference does it make? God has his plan, and that plan is running down its track like a freight train. If God has a plan, then everyone who died in the Holocaust died for a reason. They had to die, and each death had meaning. Therefore, Holocaust victims could pray all day, and they would still die. The idea of a "plan" makes the idea of a "prayer-answering relationship with God" a contradiction, doesn't it? Yet Christians seem to attach themselves to both ideas, despite the irresolvable problem the two ideas create.
Think about what God's plan means for you personally. If the plan happens to say that you will get hit by a bus tomorrow, or that terrorists will blow you up, or that you will be shot in the head four times, then that's what will happen. It would be the same with any disease. If you contract cancer this afternoon and die three months later, that is God's plan for you. Praying to cure the cancer is a waste. God plans for you to die, so you will die. He has pre-programmed the exact time of your death. There is nothing you can do to change the plan -- no amount of prayer will help -- because your death will have meaning and your death will cause side-effects that are also part of the plan.
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