Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

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Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.
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“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66737
Feb 3, 2014
 

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former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Again you're going in circles by repeating material which I already posted.
Nothing you just posted adds anything new to the discussion.
Christian also aren't supposed to believe but then behave any way they want.
(at least the way I recall it, it's not ok to believe but then go out and kill someone)
Stating that A is more important than B does not mean that B is not important.
Can you relate to that?
My understanding, and please correct me if I am wrong, that one is a Christian if one accepts (i.e. believes) Jesus into his heart. Then behavior follows that.

Its not the same for Jews. One is not Jewish by accepting (believeing in) God. One is Jewish by accepting (i.e. behaving) the laws of Moses (halacha / mitzvot). Then belief follows that (in fact belief in God is one of many mitzvot).

former res

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#66738
Feb 3, 2014
 

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Frijoles wrote:
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Strictly speaking there is no reason to go to temple. There is a mitzvah to pray with others however. Its a "commanded" behavior.
Right, as I posted, commanded by god. "[mitzvah].....refers to precepts and commandments as commanded by God......"

So is this why you go?
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
God concept is created everytime we focus ourselves to an other.Man creates symbols which can allude to something else.
So man did create god? In a sense?
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#66739
Feb 3, 2014
 

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Frijoles wrote:
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I never said religion didnt mean God. I said that there are multiple definitions and perspectives on what religion is.
Four days out or so, and you are still misquoting me.
?

If religion DOES mean god then what is
a non-theist relgion.

Dizzy yet (from the circles that is)?

:))

And allow me to rephrase since you said I misquoted you.

How about "Religion does not HAVE to mean god?"

I still maintain that it does. Is that better?
former res

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#66740
Feb 3, 2014
 

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Frijoles wrote:
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I dont believe in the theist notion of God external to our reality. I believe God is our reality, and that there is nothing but God. I.E. we are all within God.
My position is not right or wrong. Its just a perspective. You keep trying to use reason to disagree OR agree with me. I dont use reason. I use experience. And as I stated before, I dont expect you to agree with my experience, because that would be inauthentic for you. If you are serious in trying to figure out what you REALLY believe, you have to search it yourself, and THEN maybe use the language out there to express it.
You have been so hung up on God that you never asked me why follow the mitzvot. Though perhaps that was what you were getting at indirectly when you asked me why go to Temple.
I follow the mitzvot as they provide me opportunities to be closer to that state of Being that you or might call God. Think of it as a consciousness raising (awareness raising) technique. Mitzvot are forms of meditation.
I did ask that question right before I read this post.

You say " I believe God is our reality..." To that I have no response.

I don't use that word in my own life or for my own experience. As you say,
it would not be or feel authentic to me. Different strokes and all that.

If you find your practice to be therapeutic then it's good for you.

That's the bottom line: It works for you.

I do appreciate your explaining it. Obviously you didn't have to do that.

Thank you.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66741
Feb 3, 2014
 

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former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Right, as I posted, commanded by god. "[mitzvah].....refers to precepts and commandments as commanded by God......"
So is this why you go?
<quoted text>
So man did create god? In a sense?
Man created the God concept, but it is an allusion to something that is beyond thought and language.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66742
Feb 3, 2014
 

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former res wrote:
<quoted text>?
If religion DOES mean god then what is
a non-theist relgion.
Dizzy yet (from the circles that is)?
:))
And allow me to rephrase since you said I misquoted you.
How about "Religion does not HAVE to mean god?"
I still maintain that it does. Is that better?
I gave you some sources before for non-theist religion

here is a definition of panentheism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism#Juda...

Panentheism (from Greek &#960;&#8118;&#957 ; (pn) "all"; &#7952;&#957; (en) "in"; and &#952;&#949;&#972; &#962; (thes) "God"; "all-in-God") is a belief system which posits that the divine (be it a monotheistic God, polytheistic gods, or an eternal cosmic animating force[1]) interpenetrates every part of nature and timelessly extends beyond it. Panentheism differentiates itself from pantheism, which holds that the divine is synonymous with the universe.[2]

In panentheism, the universe in the first formulation is practically the whole itself. In the second formulation, the universe and the divine are not ontologically equivalent. In panentheism, God is viewed as the eternal animating force behind the universe. Some versions suggest that the universe is nothing more than the manifest part of God. In some forms of panentheism, the cosmos exists within God, who in turn "transcends", "pervades" or is "in" the cosmos. While pantheism asserts that 'All is God', panentheism goes further to claim that God is greater than the universe. In addition, some forms indicate that the universe is contained within God,[2] like in the concept of Tzimtzum.

Much Hindu thought is highly characterized by panentheism and pantheism.[3][4] Hasidic Judaism merges the elite ideal of nullification to paradoxical transcendent Divine Panentheism, through intellectual articulation of inner dimensions of Kabbalah, with the populist emphasis on the panentheistic Divine immanence in everything and deeds of kindness.

Judaism[edit]
While mainstream Rabbinic Judaism is classically monotheistic, and follows in the footsteps of the Aristotelian theologian Maimonides, the panentheistic conception of God can be found among certain mystical Jewish traditions. A leading scholar of Kabbalah, Moshe Idel[37] ascribes this doctrine to the kabbalistic system of Rabbi Moses Cordovero (15221570) and in the eighteenth century to the Baal Shem Tov, founder of the Hasidic movement, as well as his contemporary, Rabbi Menahem Mendel, the Maggid of Bar. There is some debate as to whether Lurianic Kabbalah, with its doctrine of Tzimtzum, can be regarded as panentheistic.

According to Hasidism, The infinite Ein Sof is incorporeal, and exists in a state that is both transcendent and immanent. Aspects of panentheism are also evident in the theology of Reconstructionist Judaism as presented in the writings of Mordecai Kaplan.[citation needed]
former res

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#66743
Feb 3, 2014
 

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Frijoles wrote:
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My understanding, and please correct me if I am wrong, that one is a Christian if one accepts (i.e. believes) Jesus into his heart. Then behavior follows that.
Its not the same for Jews. One is not Jewish by accepting (believeing in) God. One is Jewish by accepting (i.e. behaving) the laws of Moses (halacha / mitzvot). Then belief follows that (in fact belief in God is one of many mitzvot).
People believe different things.

I posted "What Jews believe" including belief in god but you don't per se.

Christians also have "rules" but people believe what they believe. or not.

Some choose to take it all only as allegory, for example.

It seems you want to say the Christians are all robotic followers while Jews are thoughtful, thinking types. Christians also have free will.

Belief in some form is part of any religion or why bother with it? How about "I believe it brings me closer to humanity..."
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#66744
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Frijoles wrote:
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Man created the God concept, but it is an allusion to something that is beyond thought and language.
Why do you think Jews believe god commanded the mitzvah?

Many years ago it was written. They created the god concept
then wrote that he issued commandments?

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66745
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former res wrote:
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I did ask that question right before I read this post.
You say " I believe God is our reality..." To that I have no response.
I don't use that word in my own life or for my own experience. As you say,
it would not be or feel authentic to me. Different strokes and all that.
If you find your practice to be therapeutic then it's good for you.
That's the bottom line: It works for you.
I do appreciate your explaining it. Obviously you didn't have to do that.
Thank you.
I am big on the notion of authentic spirituality.

You have to approach the issue from where you are. Many people dont. They try to fit themselves into preconceived boxes provided by their religion, and then go through the motions, ignoring their intuitive dissonance. Instead of figuring out where they stand on their own, and then looking to their tradition for language that MAY express their position. Most world religions are robust enough to offer something to everyone, if they feel the need.

Of course I have it easier because I come from a religion that stresses practice first, and belief second. Still need belief, but it has its place, after practice. Plus Judaism is philosophically compatible with agnosticism as well as nonduality. Its not so compatible with orthodox atheism (unless you are a Humanistic Jew).

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#66746
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former res wrote:
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People believe different things.
I posted "What Jews believe" including belief in god but you don't per se.
Christians also have "rules" but people believe what they believe. or not.
Some choose to take it all only as allegory, for example.
It seems you want to say the Christians are all robotic followers while Jews are thoughtful, thinking types. Christians also have free will.
Belief in some form is part of any religion or why bother with it? How about "I believe it brings me closer to humanity..."
I do believe in God. But I come from a different frame of reference as you. hence all these posts.

Didnt mean to typologize Christians. I understand there are differences, and I even have posted nondual Christian links in the past. But there are some important differences in the two religions that go beyond belief. That involve the social, i.e. the tribal covenant. AS well as priorities. These deeply affect the frame of reference, and therefore the definitions.

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#66747
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former res wrote:
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Why do you think Jews believe god commanded the mitzvah?
Many years ago it was written. They created the god concept
then wrote that he issued commandments?
To provide a path to achieve kedosha (holiness)

My belief is that the Torah is an expression of HOW the ancestors experienced God. I.E. As humans, we have no choice but to understand it and codify it using language, but Torah itself is revelation - a process (experience). And Torah did not end with Mt Sinai - the process continues to this day.
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All good, Mr. Bean. I feel we are at peace now.

Maybe I've found god!

;)

Snowing like hell out there. More to come tomorrow night into Wednesday.

Will have to fire up ole Honda snow blower this afternoon.

I take care of the elderly neighbors' sidewalks too.

Like a good Christian!

;)

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66749
Feb 3, 2014
 

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former res wrote:
All good, Mr. Bean. I feel we are at peace now.
Maybe I've found god!
;)
Snowing like hell out there. More to come tomorrow night into Wednesday.
Will have to fire up ole Honda snow blower this afternoon.
I take care of the elderly neighbors' sidewalks too.
Like a good Christian!
;)
Not a big fan of snow today. Had to cancel all my outside work for the next two weeks or so until the next big melt. Plus its the heavy sticky stuff today.

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#66750
Feb 3, 2014
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Not a big fan of snow today. Had to cancel all my outside work for the next two weeks or so until the next big melt. Plus its the heavy sticky stuff today.
You're right. This is the kind that clogs the snow blower.
OTOH not as much drifting, blowing of it. Blame that
on climate change.

Re: Chris Christie. Looking worse for him now.
At the very least guilty of bad judgment in his
hiring. Still not proven though that he had
prior knowledge. Will have to see what happens.
Still haven't heard from the woman he fired.

Re Woody Allen. At first it sounded like BS.
Now I'm not so sure. What would her motive be for
lying plus his affair with teenage adopted daughter (who
he later wed). Predict he's toast on Hollywood.
Not a bad run though.

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#66751
Feb 3, 2014
 
former res wrote:
Re Woody Allen. At first it sounded like BS.
Now I'm not so sure. What would her motive be for
lying plus his affair with teenage adopted daughter (who
he later wed). Predict he's toast on Hollywood.
Not a bad run though.
Motive: Divorce, Custody Battle and Revenge for hitching up with her daughter.

Keep in mind that experts from Yale had interviewed the child and determined that no abuse had occurred.

Just food for thought. I haven't made up my mind as it seems unlikely we'll ever know beyond a reasonable doubt.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66752
Feb 3, 2014
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
You're right. This is the kind that clogs the snow blower.
OTOH not as much drifting, blowing of it. Blame that
on climate change.
Re: Chris Christie. Looking worse for him now.
At the very least guilty of bad judgment in his
hiring. Still not proven though that he had
prior knowledge. Will have to see what happens.
Still haven't heard from the woman he fired.
Re Woody Allen. At first it sounded like BS.
Now I'm not so sure. What would her motive be for
lying plus his affair with teenage adopted daughter (who
he later wed). Predict he's toast on Hollywood.
Not a bad run though.
Woody Allen has been damaged goods for quite a long time already. And most significantly, IMO, his last few movies sucked.

It doesnt matter whether Christie had prior knowledge in reality. In the court of public opinion, its been decided he has. Whats going to take him down isnt Bridgegate but Sandy. Though for the life of me I cant understand why they couldnt prosecute him for terrorism from Bridgegate, They have prosecuted on less.
former res

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#66753
Feb 3, 2014
 
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Motive: Divorce, Custody Battle and Revenge for hitching up with her daughter.
Keep in mind that experts from Yale had interviewed the child and determined that no abuse had occurred.
Just food for thought. I haven't made up my mind as it seems unlikely we'll ever know beyond a reasonable doubt.
Good motives for Mia but not necessarily for 28-year-old Dylan.

I am familiar with the background which is why I originally though it was BS.

Tim Russert's widow wrote the Vanity Fair piece.

But perception is everything. I think he's done on Hollywood and the court of public opinion.

No one important will work with him again. Just a prediction.

BTW, Mia's son Ronin (questionable who is dad is) will be new host on MSNBC. Smart guy if a little preachy. He was on the Bill Maher show this weekend. Yale law grad, Rhoades schlar. 25 I think
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#66754
Feb 3, 2014
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Woody Allen has been damaged goods for quite a long time already. And most significantly, IMO, his last few movies sucked.
It doesnt matter whether Christie had prior knowledge in reality. In the court of public opinion, its been decided he has. Whats going to take him down isnt Bridgegate but Sandy. Though for the life of me I cant understand why they couldnt prosecute him for terrorism from Bridgegate, They have prosecuted on less.
Not damaged enough to keep stars from wanting to be in his movies or keep the public away from the box office. I think his will change now. Enough is enough.

I don't enjoy most of his movies but enjoyed "Blue Jasmine" this weekend on BluRay. Excellent casting and good watch.

Blue Jasmine received praise from the critics, particularly for Blanchett's performance; additionally, they compared the film to Tennessee Williams' play A Streetcar Named Desire.[9][10] It was a box office success, earning $94.7 million worldwide against a budget of $18 million.[11] The film has received several awards and nominations, including a Golden Globe Award win for Blanchett in the Best Actress Drama category; as well as a SAG-AFTRA win for Outstanding Lead Actress in a Drama category.

US attorneys don't like to take on case unless they think they can win. What would be the possible evidence for terrorism? that we know so far that is?

I never though he would get the nominations so the only question is will he keep his current job.

The mayor lady had a credibility problem. She changed her story. She seems a bit flakey to me

Re the bridge - no real contradiction seen yet even in Wildstein's letter. If Christis is shown to have lied at the press conference (or worse) then we'll have a story

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#66755
Feb 3, 2014
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Good motives for Mia but not necessarily for 28-year-old Dylan.
I am familiar with the background which is why I originally though it was BS.
Tim Russert's widow wrote the Vanity Fair piece.
But perception is everything. I think he's done on Hollywood and the court of public opinion.
No one important will work with him again. Just a prediction.
BTW, Mia's son Ronin (questionable who is dad is) will be new host on MSNBC. Smart guy if a little preachy. He was on the Bill Maher show this weekend. Yale law grad, Rhoades schlar. 25 I think
It's not impossible to implant false memories in a child, but now I digress into conspiracy territory, so I'll just call it quits here ;-)
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#66756
Feb 3, 2014
 
Cult of Reason wrote:
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It's not impossible to implant false memories in a child, but now I digress into conspiracy territory, so I'll just call it quits here ;-)
Maybe he'll make a movie where an 80-year-old guy
confesses to something along those lines from decades ago.

It might be therapeutic for him.

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