“Government IS the problem.”

Since: Jan 08

Chico, CA

#81 May 9, 2013
GRANDPA NICOLAI wrote:
<quoted text>
>
>
Well.... whatever.... but we all also know how that turned out too....
"The share of the income tax burden borne by the top 10 percent of taxpayers increased from 48.0 percent in 1981 to 57.2 percent in 1988. Meanwhile, the share of income taxes paid by the bottom 50 percent of taxpayers dropped from 7.5 percent in 1981 to 5.7 percent in 1988.
A middle class of taxpayers can be defined as those between the 50th percentile and the 95th percentile (those earning between $18,367 and $72,735 in 1988). Between 1981 and 1988, the income tax burden of the middle class declined from 57.5 percent in 1981 to 48.7 percent in 1988. This 8.8 percentage point decline in middle class tax burden is entirely accounted for by the increase borne by the top one percent.

Even so, individual income tax revenues rose from $244 billion in 1980 to $446 billion in 1989."
http://www.jec.senate.gov/republicans/public/...

“Government IS the problem.”

Since: Jan 08

Chico, CA

#82 May 9, 2013
Tea Party Solution wrote:
<quoted text>
And it's interesting, TSQ, to see what Hitler's big government was able to achieve economically. Whereas the other nations were suffering from their largely austerity type of economics during the Great Depression-- thanks to their conservatives who hampered the progressives' attempts to revitalize their economies-- Germany was doing very well.
I thought you said Hitler was a right winger? So for you to like him now you must believe that he is a man of the Left. Bizarre.

Yeah it is pretty easy for mass murdering dictators to do what they want when they control the police, the military and the government and steal everyone's property and money. All for good of the country, right comrade. I know with you Lefties the end always justifies the means.

But how did Hitler's economic program work out in the end? As I recall, now you may have learned something different, Hitler killed himself, there are millions dead, all that infrastructure was blown up and the country was basically a heap of rubble.

Galbraith is a Leftist so of course he would have liked Hitler's economic policies.
Tea Party Solution

Paradise, CA

#83 May 10, 2013
Sam Lowree wrote:
<quoted text>
I thought you said Hitler was a right winger? So for you to like him now you must believe that he is a man of the Left. Bizarre.
No, little Sammy-- reality is a lot more complex then your simplistic mind can comprehend. We who can deal with a bit more complexity in our thought process can see that PARTS of Hitler's economic agenda certainly DID help that country come out of the Depression much sooner than the rest of us.

But his dictatorial control of the country was 100% right wing.

In some ways Hitler's FINANCIAL programs were progressive. His agenda included spending, and he got Germany out of the Great Depression much sooner than the rest of Europe, and the US, where the conservatives were pushing for what we now call austerity. This is a fact.

As TSQ stated, Hitler's social agenda was severely demented. The work of a meglomaniac sociopath (my description, not TSQ's). The mass murder of Jews and other minorities, the World War he started, these are not examples of socialism-- they were the acts of a dictator.

I know that it's difficult for you to see things other than black and white. That's NOT a rhetorical statement-- it's the truth. But I CAN accept the fact that some of Hitler's progressive financial policies did work, while at the same time hating Hitler's social policies, as well as many aspects of his financial policies.
Sam Lowree wrote:
<Yeah it is pretty easy for mass murdering dictators to do what they want when they control the police, the military and the government and steal everyone's property and money. All for good of the country, right comrade. I know with you Lefties the end always justifies the means.
Yes, Hitler was a mass murdering dictator. I agree. Yes, he controlled the government completely. I agree. And he stole SOME people's money and property (the Jews and other 'inferiors'), and he took the property of SOME American corporations (but not Henry Ford's)-- butbasically, German corporations did just fine, and so did most of Germany's middle class population.

That's ONE reason Hitler was so popular.

And, no, I don't agree that to "us lefties" the end always justifies the means. Just like I'm against voter suppression laws in the US-- while republicons love them. Because, to them, the ends do justify the means.
Sam Lowree wrote:
<But how did Hitler's economic program work out in the end? As I recall, now you may have learned something different, Hitler killed himself, there are millions dead, all that infrastructure was blown up and the country was basically a heap of rubble.
Hitler's economic policies were doing well until Germany was devasted in the War. I know it's difficult for you, but you have to separate the success of economic policies from losing a world war.
Sam Lowree wrote:
<Galbraith is a Leftist so of course he would have liked Hitler's economic policies.
And of course you will dismiss the fact that Germany's spending got them out of the depression much sooner than the rest of Europe, and you'll just try to belittle Galbraith's description of Germany's economic success as just a 'leftist' account. The FACTS show otherwise. but facts don't matter in your already made-up worldview.

And how is Germany doing NOW? Very well. Although NOW they're trying to push austerity onto all of the other EU nations, who are doing poorly under these austerity measures.
GRANDPA NICOLAI

Paradise, CA

#84 May 10, 2013
Sam Lowree wrote:
<quoted text>
"The share of the income tax burden borne by the top 10 percent of taxpayers increased from 48.0 percent in 1981 to 57.2 percent in 1988. Meanwhile, the share of income taxes paid by the bottom 50 percent of taxpayers dropped from 7.5 percent in 1981 to 5.7 percent in 1988.
A middle class of taxpayers can be defined as those between the 50th percentile and the 95th percentile (those earning between $18,367 and $72,735 in 1988). Between 1981 and 1988, the income tax burden of the middle class declined from 57.5 percent in 1981 to 48.7 percent in 1988. This 8.8 percentage point decline in middle class tax burden is entirely accounted for by the increase borne by the top one percent.
Even so, individual income tax revenues rose from $244 billion in 1980 to $446 billion in 1989."
http://www.jec.senate.gov/republicans/public/...
>
>
WOW, You really believe that Republican drivel...???

Such a punishing tax rate for the wealthy and such a munificent tax break for the middle class and yet the overall wealth of the- well- to- do more than quintupled during the next 30+ years while that of the middle class marked time or slid backwards....

And with all that tax revenue coming in, the grandaddy of our deficit, Saint R.R still managed to triple our deficit from $800 Billion to over $3 Trillion...

Glory be!
The Infantile left Winged

Chico, CA

#85 May 10, 2013
GRANDPA NICOLAI wrote:
<quoted text>
>
>
WOW, You really believe that Republican drivel...???
Such a punishing tax rate for the wealthy and such a munificent tax break for the middle class and yet the overall wealth of the- well- to- do more than quintupled during the next 30+ years while that of the middle class marked time or slid backwards....
And with all that tax revenue coming in, the grandaddy of our deficit, Saint R.R still managed to triple our deficit from $800 Billion to over $3 Trillion...
Glory be!
Very strange thing how truth and reality totally avoid you at all times!!!
Hey stupid! The rich DO pay the greatest majority of taxes paid!
Look it up moron!
Prove me wrong you dope, with some reliable links!!!
Good luck moron... LMAO at you, you imbecile!
GRANDPA NICOLAI

Paradise, CA

#86 May 10, 2013
The Infantile left Winged wrote:
<quoted text>
Very strange thing how truth and reality totally avoid you at all times!!!
Hey stupid! The rich DO pay the greatest majority of taxes paid!
Look it up moron!
Prove me wrong you dope, with some reliable links!!!
Good luck moron... LMAO at you, you imbecile!
>
>
It has never been an issue about the money paid, it is all about percentages, IDIOT!!!!

I will give an example even an ignorant dope like you could understand (if you tried hard enough...)

10% In taxes is a lot of money for a family of 4 earning $ 50K,($50,000) per year, because that leaves them only $45,000 to live on, on the other hand ...

10% is a spit in the bucket to someone like a Romney absconding with, let's say,$50,000,000 (50 MILLION) of other people's money...

Anyone who can't manage to live on $45,000,000 per year, or even $1 million per year then they do not deserve to live in the first place.......
A Toad Roady

Lincoln, CA

#87 May 10, 2013
GRANDPA NICOLAI wrote:
<quoted text>
>
>
It has never been an issue about the money paid, it is all about percentages, IDIOT!!!!
I will give an example even an ignorant dope like you could understand (if you tried hard enough...)
10% In taxes is a lot of money for a family of 4 earning $ 50K,($50,000) per year, because that leaves them only $45,000 to live on, on the other hand ...
10% is a spit in the bucket to someone like a Romney absconding with, let's say,$50,000,000 (50 MILLION) of other people's money...
Anyone who can't manage to live on $45,000,000 per year, or even $1 million per year then they do not deserve to live in the first place.......
Infantile likes being on his knees in front of the "man" while begging for his pittance. I think his problem stems from the fact that heís spineless and never had the balls to fight for fair pay, benefits and treatment from his masters.
sociopathic Liberals

Chico, CA

#88 May 10, 2013
GRANDPA NICOLAI wrote:
<quoted text>
>
>
It has never been an issue about the money paid, it is all about percentages, IDIOT!!!!
Oh really, dumbphuq!!!
So the rich paying millions in taxes is not enough for a jealous dumbphuq like you? While approx. 50% of the people don't pay taxes at all???
As a matter of fact, dumbphuq, welfare deadbeats for some reason get tax refunds on money that was given to them from peoples like me taxes paid!!!
nicoliar! You are the most stupid dumbphuq, to ever have graced these pages of topix!

IT IS A govt. SPENDING PROBLEM you dumbphuq!!!
And don't give me your stupid police, fire, and roads, talking lies! I wish that they did spend my taxes on those things instead of all of the wasteful B>S> that they do! Buying votes from P'sOS like you dumbphuqs!!!
GRANDPA NICOLAI

Paradise, CA

#90 May 10, 2013
sociopathic Liberals wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh really, dumbphuq!!!
So the rich paying millions in taxes is not enough for a jealous dumbphuq like you? While approx. 50% of the people don't pay taxes at all???
As a matter of fact, dumbphuq, welfare deadbeats for some reason get tax refunds on money that was given to them from peoples like me taxes paid!!!
nicoliar! You are the most stupid dumbphuq, to ever have graced these pages of topix!
IT IS A govt. SPENDING PROBLEM you dumbphuq!!!
And don't give me your stupid police, fire, and roads, talking lies! I wish that they did spend my taxes on those things instead of all of the wasteful B>S> that they do! Buying votes from P'sOS like you dumbphuqs!!!
>
>
If the rich make millions then they darn wells better pay millions in taxes...

Pukes like you make peanuts therefore you pay peanuts in taxes (I don't want to hear you whining about what you paid because you paid peanuts)

and the poor don't make squat so they shouldn't pay squat ....

What is it that you do not understand about a graduated tax system,...?

You idiot!!!!
sociopathic Liberals

Chico, CA

#91 May 10, 2013
GRANDPA NICOLAI wrote:
<quoted text>
>
>
If the rich make millions then they darn wells better pay millions in taxes...
Pukes like you make peanuts therefore you pay peanuts in taxes (I don't want to hear you whining about what you paid because you paid peanuts)
and the poor don't make squat so they shouldn't pay squat ....
What is it that you do not understand about a graduated tax system,...?
You idiot!!!!
Your stupid and childish rant made zero sense!
Because you idiot, the rich already do pay exorbitant taxes, and the deadbeats get returns on paying nothing!
I'm arguing with a complete and total idiot!
GRANDPA NICOLAI

Paradise, CA

#92 May 10, 2013
sociopathic Liberals wrote:
<quoted text>
Your stupid and childish rant made zero sense!
Because you idiot, the rich already do pay exorbitant taxes, and the deadbeats get returns on paying nothing!
I'm arguing with a complete and total idiot!
>
>
The rich want you to believe they are paying exorbitant taxes, and it only make sense that a stupid conservative dupe like you would buy into that nonsense...

Thats why conservative losers like you are paying a higher tax rate then Romney and Warren Buffet, and it serves you right, dope!

You are nothing butt a miserable butt kisser for the wealthy!!!!

“Government IS the problem.”

Since: Jan 08

Chico, CA

#93 May 10, 2013
Tea Party Solution wrote:
<quoted text>
No, little Sammyó
Is this how you reply when you become frustrated with someone or is your idea of wit?
Tea Party Solution wrote:
<quoted text>
But his dictatorial control of the country was 100% right wing.
In some ways Hitler's FINANCIAL programs were progressive. His agenda included spending, and he got Germany out of the Great Depression much sooner than the rest of Europe, and the US, where the conservatives were pushing for what we now call austerity. This is a fact.
I see. So progressive programs are now conservative. Government spending, seizure of companies assets and government control of the market are right wing as well. I think this is what you call talking out of both sides of your mouth.
Tea Party Solution wrote:
<quoted text>
The mass murder of Jews and other minorities, the World War he started, these are not examples of socialism-- they were the acts of a dictator.
I know that it's difficult for you to see things other than black and white. That's NOT a rhetorical statement-- it's the truth. But I CAN accept the fact that some of Hitler's progressive financial policies did work, while at the same time hating Hitler's social policies, as well as many aspects of his financial policies.
Once again. For someone who hated capitalism, Hitler, how can you say that he is a right winger? Obviously you didnít read Hitlerís own words or the party policy that I posted earlier. It really isnít that hard. Many of Hitlerís policies are readily available on line. He was a socialist. He said that he was. His policies proved that he was. Good Lord man, educate yourself!
Even if you donít believe that Hitler was a man of the Left we still have Mao, Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot and Castro, all mass murdering Lefties. Mao puts Hitler to shame in the murder department.
Tea Party Solution wrote:
<quoted text>
Hitler's economic policies were doing well until Germany was devasted in the War.
That statement in and of itself tells me that Hitler was a Leftie. You would never applaud any actions by a right winger. So it is the Worldsí fault that Hitlerís economic policies eventually failed?
Tea Party Solution wrote:
<quoted text>
The FACTS show otherwise. but facts don't matter in your already made-up worldview.
Tu quo que. If only you depended on facts and not the opinion of some progressive nonsense. Here is a good place to start:
http://www.amazon.com/Liberal-Fascism-America...

If I knew that you would read I would buy you a copy.

“Government IS the problem.”

Since: Jan 08

Chico, CA

#94 May 10, 2013
Tea Party Solution wrote:
<quoted text>
But his dictatorial control of the country was 100% right wing.
Find below the opening paragraph of a paper by Dr. Peter Temin, a widely cited economist and economic historian, currently Gray Professor Emeritus of Economics, MIT and former head of the Economics Department.

http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1...

"This paper argues that economic planning under Stalin and Hitler in the 1930s was essentially similar,both in process and outcome.Both economies
had fixed prices and used coercion as part of a
rather chaotic process of resource allocation;consumption in both countries was sacrificed to investment in heavy industry. Both
economies can be thought of as socialist, and socialism in the 1930s was hardly more than military mobilization."

I post it so that in a one in a million chance you may read something factual by an economic historian, you won't. But at least I gave it a shot. If you wish to remain ignorant that is your choice.

Despite all the facts and historical information that I have presented to you, you will continue in your fairy tale world. Alas, I wouldn't expect an open mind from a Leftist. So sad.
Stupid Freak NAZI Sammy

United States

#95 May 11, 2013
Sam Lowree wrote:
<quoted text>
Find below the opening paragraph of a paper by Dr. Peter Temin, a widely cited economist and economic historian, currently Gray Professor Emeritus of Economics, MIT and former head of the Economics Department.
http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1...
"This paper argues that economic planning under Stalin and Hitler in the 1930s was essentially similar,both in process and outcome.Both economies
had fixed prices and used coercion as part of a
rather chaotic process of resource allocation;consumption in both countries was sacrificed to investment in heavy industry. Both
economies can be thought of as socialist, and socialism in the 1930s was hardly more than military mobilization."
I post it so that in a one in a million chance you may read something factual by an economic historian, you won't. But at least I gave it a shot. If you wish to remain ignorant that is your choice.
Despite all the facts and historical information that I have presented to you, you will continue in your fairy tale world. Alas, I wouldn't expect an open mind from a Leftist. So sad.
Soooo you are saying that you ADMIRE the HITLER and STALIN ecomomic plans and that the USA should follow that or a similar path?

We are all now truly aware of your NAZI-KKK-Facist sympathies. Likewise you agree by your statement that FORCED LABOR to prop up those economic plans was and should still be JUSTIFIED?

Well now SAMMY THE NAZI IDIOT, we had a system like that ONCE! It was called SLAVERY and we fought a civil war over it. YOU LOST IDIOT!!! Now you know why the MAJORITY OF AMERICANS have NO TOLLERANCE for your BRAND of taking America BACK to that era!!!

You are not only a FREAK but a STUPID FREAK at that!!!!

“Government IS the problem.”

Since: Jan 08

Chico, CA

#96 May 11, 2013
Stupid Freak NAZI Sammy wrote:
<quoted text>Soooo you are saying that you ADMIRE the HITLER and STALIN ecomomic plans and that the USA should follow that or a similar path?
Let's see. Me posting a paper comparing what Stalin and Hitler did economically means that I like their approach and want it repeated here? How did you come to that conclusion?
Tea Party Solution

Chico, CA

#97 May 11, 2013
Sam Lowree wrote:
<quoted text>
I see. So progressive programs are now conservative. Government spending, seizure of companies assets and government control of the market are right wing as well. I think this is what you call talking out of both sides of your mouth.
Complexity is difficult for you to navigate, Sam. Government spending can come from all kinds of governments-- communist, socialist-democratic, and right-wing dictatorships such as the Nazi's.

But Hitler's seizures of SOME companies, and his iron-fisted control of the workers, did not make him a 'socialist'. He was a right-wing dictator.

Socialism comes in many varieties, but it will always feature some respect for workers' rights.

"And what of Nazi Germany? The idea that workers controlled the means of production in Nazi Germany is a bitter joke. It was actually a combination of aristocracy and capitalism. Technically, private businessmen owned and controlled the means of production. The Nazi "Charter of Labor" gave employers complete power over their workers. It established the employer as the "leader of the enterprise," and read: "The leader of the enterprise makes the decisions for the employees and laborers in all matters concerning the enterprise."

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-hitler.htm
Sam Lowree wrote:
<Once again. For someone who hated capitalism, Hitler, how can you say that he is a right winger? Obviously you didnít read Hitlerís own words or the party policy that I posted earlier. It really isnít that hard. Many of Hitlerís policies are readily available on line. He was a socialist. He said that he was. His policies proved that he was. Good Lord man, educate yourself!
Your world view can't handle nuance and complexity. It's just too confusing, right? Hitler's main goals had little to do with capitalism nor with socialism. His main goal was to take over the world. Just because he SAID he was a socialist means nothing. He certainly didn't socialize American companies who reaped millions in their German factories. In fact, he gave them and German corporations Jewish slave labor.
Sam Lowree wrote:
<Even if you donít believe that Hitler was a man of the Left we still have Mao, Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot and Castro, all mass murdering Lefties. Mao puts Hitler to shame in the murder department.

The socialistic democracies such as Sweden, Canada, and Denmark have nothing in common with the dictators you mentioned above. The above were dictators, and their countries featured no socialistic agendas-- such as equality and democracy.

[QUOTE who="Sam Lowree"]<That statement in and of itself tells me that Hitler was a Leftie. You would never applaud any actions by a right winger. So it is the Worldsí fault that Hitlerís economic policies eventually failed?
How silly can you get? ANY country-- capitalistic, socialistic, or right-wing fascistic, such as Nazi Germany-- is going to be economically devastated when they lose a war.
Tea Party Solution

Chico, CA

#98 May 11, 2013
You've quoted Hitler often in your attempt to paint him as a socialist. But Hitler often said things that were politically helpful for him-- and then later he'd actually do just the opposite.

From the above link:

" During his drive to power, Hitler exploited this social unrest by promising workers to strengthen their labor unions and increase their standard of living. But these were empty promises; privately, he was reassuring wealthy German businessmen that he would crack down on labor once he achieved power. Historian William Shirer describes the Nazi's dual strategy:

"The party had to play both sides of the tracks. It had to allow [Nazi officials] Strasser, Goebbels and the crank Feder to beguile the masses with the cry that the National Socialists were truly 'socialists' and against the money barons. On the other hand, money to keep the party going had to be wheedled out of those who had an ample supply of it."

The point I've been making throughout my posts is that Germany DID pull itself out of the Great Depression much more quickly than other countries. That's because it SPENT money to build things such as the autobahn (infrastructure spending), and ALSO because it spent money to go to war.

" After the Nazis took power in 1933, they quickly established a highly controlled war economy under the direction of Dr. Hjalmar Schacht. Like all war economies, it boomed, making Germany the second nation to recover fully from the Great Depression, in 1936.

(The first nation was Sweden, in 1934. Following Keynesian-like policies, the Swedish government spent its way out of the Depression, proving that state economic policies can be successful without resorting to dictatorship or war.)"

The rest of us came out of the Depression when WE went to war. Do you get it? Spending eventually pulled all of us out of the Depression.

But Sweden was the FIRST, even before Germany-- "proving that state economic policies can be successful without resorting to dictatorship or war."

“Government IS the problem.”

Since: Jan 08

Chico, CA

#99 May 11, 2013
Tea Party Solution wrote:
<quoted text>
But Hitler's seizures of SOME companies, and his iron-fisted control of the workers, did not make him a 'socialist'. He was a right-wing dictator.
Define the difference. Tell me what you think a right wing dictator is and what a left wing dictator is.
Tea Party Solution wrote:
<quoted text>
Socialism comes in many varieties, but it will always feature some respect for workers' rights.
You have to be joking. Socialism is concerned with the growth of government and power. In the early stages, like here, the government shows concern for the workers but as the system progresses the workers are no more than slaves. Socialism, Fascism and Communism have to eventually lead to tyranny. Tyranny is the only way that they can sustain their power.
Tea Party Solution wrote:
<quoted text>
Technically, private businessmen owned and controlled the means of production. The Nazi "Charter of Labor" gave employers complete power over their workers.
Of course you are wrong. Again. While the owners of the corporations retained ownership the government told them what to produce, what price to charge and what to pay their workers.
Tea Party Solution wrote:
<quoted text>
Hitler's main goals had little to do with capitalism nor with socialism. His main goal was to take over the world. Just because he SAID he was a socialist means nothing. He certainly didn't socialize American companies who reaped millions in their German factories. In fact, he gave them and German corporations Jewish slave labor.
You really should try reading some of the historical works rather than relying on some agenda driven Leftists. Reading is a good thing.

How can someone who has such a narrow view of history portend to know all the facts. Your only view is what the Lefties tell you. Don't be embarrassed that Hitler was a man of the Left. After all he is in good company, Stalin, Mao, etc.

Read:
http://www.amazon.com/Adolf-Hitler-Volumes-I-...
http://www.amazon.com/Liberal-Fascism-America...

Just a couple for starters.

“Government IS the problem.”

Since: Jan 08

Chico, CA

#100 May 11, 2013
Why do you ignore this work TP?

"This paper argues that economic planning under Stalin and Hitler in the 1930s was essentially similar,both in process and outcome.Both economies
had fixed prices and used coercion as part of a
rather chaotic process of resource allocation;consumption in both countries was sacrificed to investment in heavy industry. Both
economies can be thought of as socialist, and socialism in the 1930s was hardly more than military mobilization."
http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1...
GRANDPA NICOLAI

Paradise, CA

#101 May 12, 2013
Sam Lowree wrote:
<quoted text>

You have to be joking. Socialism is concerned with the growth of government and power. In the early stages, like here, the government shows concern for the workers but as the system progresses the workers are no more than slaves. Socialism, Fascism and Communism have to eventually lead to tyranny. Tyranny is the only way that they can sustain their power.
>
>
You know? You have got a point buried in here somewhere...

At one time the government did show concern for the workers, then Reagan appeared on the scene and systematically begun to destroy the unions...

and ever since, the right wing nuts had it in for the workers ( and unwittingly themselves) and things did indeed eventually culminate in the tyranny of the T Publicans who do not give a damn about the will of the majority of the People...

Yes SAM... all you conservatards just go right ahead and keep on blaming your own misfortunes and personal failings on Socialism....

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