Public Shool to be Held at Churches

Public Shool to be Held at Churches

Posted in the Ravenswood Forum

First Prev
of 9
Next Last
Juicy Lucy

Point Pleasant, WV

#1 Jan 8, 2013
News Story:
http://www.dailymail.com/News/201301070143

On its face this seems highly illegal and a clear violation of the principle of separation of church and state.

Since: Sep 11

Charleston, WV

#2 Jan 8, 2013
Holding school in a church building isn't violating separation of church and state as long as the curriculum didn't change to teaching something religious. Separation of church and state is church and government. It's certainly not illegal.
Juicy Lucy

Point Pleasant, WV

#3 Jan 8, 2013
Displaying religious items in a public school setting most certainly is; and every square inch of every church ever built is plastered with crucifix's, portraiture, and countless other forms of religious propaganda. It is doubtful (if not impossible)that any of that paraphernalia will be removed.

Since: Sep 11

Charleston, WV

#4 Jan 8, 2013
Juicy Lucy wrote:
Displaying religious items in a public school setting most certainly is; and every square inch of every church ever built is plastered with crucifix's, portraiture, and countless other forms of religious propaganda. It is doubtful (if not impossible)that any of that paraphernalia will be removed.
No, it is not against any law for religious symbols to be in the same room as a student. It is, however, against the law for a school to support a teacher teaching that religion to the students. Symbols, pictures, or "paraphernalia" are not a danger to a child's education in any way as long as they aren't being referred to in the lessons.
Juicy Lucy

Point Pleasant, WV

#5 Jan 8, 2013
It is considered unconstitutional, here is just one example of a developing debacle just across the river in Jackson, Oh... That school board is facing a protracted and expensive lawsuit over a portrait which hung in the halls since 1947.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/50396612/ns/local...

If Facebook posts such as "What a great oppurtunity to bring God back to the school system" are any indicator, it seems highly probable that there will be issues.
Torches&Pitchfor ks

Ardsley, NY

#6 Jan 8, 2013
Juicy Lucy wrote:
It is considered unconstitutional, here is just one example of a developing debacle just across the river in Jackson, Oh... That school board is facing a protracted and expensive lawsuit over a portrait which hung in the halls since 1947.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/50396612/ns/local...

If Facebook posts such as "What a great oppurtunity to bring God back to the school system" are any indicator, it seems highly probable that there will be issues.
Explain to these readers where "separation of church and state" is in the Constitution exactly.

After you cannot do that, then explain to everyone where that phrase came from.

I'm not saying its right or wrong to hold school sessions in a church, but please know the Constitution if you're going to reference it.
bacon hater

Greenwich, OH

#7 Jan 8, 2013
Not only is it not illegal or unconstitutional, I'm glad to see the churches step up and allow the use of their facilities. The legality and constitutional questions are easily overriden by the government's responsibility to provide an education in a safe setting. Remember, it's unconstitutional for public schools to favor one religion over another through curriculum or display. It isn't illegal to move classes to a religious facility in an emergency. Religion is a part of human history, current and civic events. It has to be a part of our teachings. Schools do not have to be absent of religious materials. They have to be absent of preferential materials.

However, if it is revealed that the churches are charging the BOE a fee to use their facilities, it is just another example of the despicable reasons for the existence of churches - to dupe money out of the less intelligent members of our community.

Since: Sep 11

Charleston, WV

#8 Jan 8, 2013
This situation is not unconstitutional. There's a HUGE difference in accepting a portrait from a religious organization to hang in a school and having to spend a week in a church building for classes. By hanging a portrait of Jesus in your school, you support Christianity. By having school children in a church building while repairs are being conducted in your normal place of education, you are supporting educating children.

There will always be issues when people want to find them. Educating children in a temporary building should not be an issue unless the teachers cross the line from government education to religious lessons. THAT would be unconstitutional.
bacon hater

Greenwich, OH

#9 Jan 8, 2013
[QUOTE who="Torches&Pitchfor ks"]<quoted text>
Explain to these readers where "separation of church and state" is in the Constitution exactly. After you cannot do that, then explain to everyone where that phrase came from. I'm not saying its right or wrong to hold school sessions in a church, but please know the Constitution if you're going to reference it.
[/QUOTE]

The First Amendment to the United States Constitution provides that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ...." and Article VI specifies that "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

You can't be that stupid, Torches. Our forfathers were hellbent on having a secular government. Our country was founded on an absence of religion, not an abundance of it. So they used the first (not the second or third or 34th or 62nd) amendment to ensure that.

Congress cannot "respect an establishment of religion." Period. If you can't understand that, go to school instead of church.

"Lighthouses are more usefeful than churches." ...Ben Franklin
Juicy Lucy

Point Pleasant, WV

#10 Jan 8, 2013
[QUOTE who="Torches&Pitchfor ks"]<quoted text>
Explain to these readers where "separation of church and state" is in the Constitution exactly.
After you cannot do that, then explain to everyone where that phrase came from.
I'm not saying its right or wrong to hold school sessions in a church, but please know the Constitution if you're going to reference it.
[/QUOTE]

I suppose if you want to presume you know better than I the principles of the "separation of church and state" than I will play along. Thomas jefferson uttered the phrase "wall of separation between church and state" in a letter dated 1802, 4 years after the constitution was ratified.

The US Supreme court has consistently ruled these cases as unconstitutional under the first amenedment since at least the mid-1940's.

For your pleasure, a quote from Justice Clarence Thomas's dissent of the courts opinion declaring unconstitutional the dispaly of crosses as a memorial to slain police officers:

"Today the [Supreme] Court rejects an opportunity to provide clarity to an establishment clause jurisprudence in shambles," Thomas said in the dissent handed down last Monday. "A sharply divided Court of Appeals for the 10th Circuit has declared unconstitutional a private association's efforts to memorialize slain police officers with white roadside crosses, holding that the crosses convey to a reasonable observer that the state of Utah is endorsing Christianity. The 10th Circuit's opinion is one of the latest in a long line of 'religious display' decisions that, because of this court's nebulous establishment clause analyses, turn on little more than 'judicial predilections.'"

These may seem to the unthoughtful person to be different situations, but the central issue is exactly the same.
bacon hater

Greenwich, OH

#11 Jan 8, 2013
Lucy, I appreciate your posts. Although we disagree on this particular issue, your mind is in the right place. People like Torches will not listen to reason; they are Christians, so as they teach, those that are not are due punishment. The intellectuals among us dismiss this view as quickly as we dismiss their contention that children rode dinosaurs for transportation.

He can read that "congress cannot respect the establishment of religion" but since it isn't written out word-for-word "separation of church and state," he will ignorantly claim that concept doesn't exist. I've tried to explain that all our amendments are limited and that the Supreme Court has given wide latitude to government to restrict them, but he still thinks that it is the right of every American to own an Uzi, so what are we to do? I just pretend he isn't here. Just like he pretends there was a talking snake and a virgin birth and a guy that lived in a fish for three days.
smh

Point Pleasant, WV

#12 Jan 8, 2013
So Lucy, what is your solution to where all of these grade school kids be taught? School cannot just be closed indefinitely. I suppose you have a problem with the "special needs" kids being taught at the community building as well?
Juicy Lucy

Point Pleasant, WV

#13 Jan 8, 2013
Thank you bacon, I appreciate your honest opinion.

I'm going to paraphrase Justice Thomas above in hopes of more clearly expressing my perspective, I honestly don't think I could express it more plainly.

... holding public school in a church conveys to a reasonable observer that the Jackson County Board of Education is endorsing Christianity....

The 'appearance to endorse' is enough in and of itself to land our school sytem in a legal quagmire that it can ill-afford to defend.

To touch upon your earlier statemnet about providing a safe environment. The school board is one of the largest landlords in the county. They can easily find more appropriate facilities.
Juicy Lucy

Point Pleasant, WV

#14 Jan 8, 2013
smh wrote:
So Lucy, what is your solution to where all of these grade school kids be taught? School cannot just be closed indefinitely. I suppose you have a problem with the "special needs" kids being taught at the community building as well?
This is projected to be 3 days. The same thing they do when school is cancelled for weather. There are numerous ISE and early dismissal days already built into the calendar to make-up for these things.

ex. Jan 30- early dismissal, Feb 18- ISE no school, Mar 1- no school, Mar 8- no school, Mar 15- no school,... in March it looks like school is cancelled every Friday... there you go, this is not at all necessary.

http://jackson.wv.schoolwebpages.com/educatio...

Since: Sep 11

Charleston, WV

#15 Jan 8, 2013
Juicy Lucy wrote:
Thank you bacon, I appreciate your honest opinion.
I'm going to paraphrase Justice Thomas above in hopes of more clearly expressing my perspective, I honestly don't think I could express it more plainly.
... holding public school in a church conveys to a reasonable observer that the Jackson County Board of Education is endorsing Christianity....
The 'appearance to endorse' is enough in and of itself to land our school sytem in a legal quagmire that it can ill-afford to defend.
To touch upon your earlier statemnet about providing a safe environment. The school board is one of the largest landlords in the county. They can easily find more appropriate facilities.
I completely understood the first time, but it still isn't against the law. Holding public school in a church as a PERMANENT residence would inevitably lead to a situation in which church and state lines would cross. A week in a TEMPORARY building, such as a church or community center does not in any way endorse the purpose of the main use of that building. Justice Thomas used "appearance of endorsement" correctly. However, appearance of endorsement is NOT against the law. Actual endorsement would be crossing the line. Since simply using the building to house students from the elements for a week is not permanent and not automatically exposing them to religious teachings of a specific religion, the law is not broken. The main point that Bacon was making is that teaching religion is not necessarily against the law. Giving a specific religion preference is certainly against the law. The law does not provide a sheild for 100% protection from the exposure to religion.
bacon hater

Greenwich, OH

#16 Jan 8, 2013
I don't think that it conveys an endorsement of Christianity. Instead, I think it reflects the lack of diversity in our community. If we had a synagogue or mosque, they likely would've been used or considered as well. Having said that, I am confident that the BOE will be hounded over this, and they should be forced to explain themselves to greater degree. I want to know the fees, if any, being levied on the schools by the churches. If they are donating their facilities, kudos to the churches involved. If not, it is a disgrace typical of our religious establishment.

Since: Sep 11

Charleston, WV

#17 Jan 8, 2013
Juicy Lucy wrote:
<quoted text>
This is projected to be 3 days. The same thing they do when school is cancelled for weather. There are numerous ISE and early dismissal days already built into the calendar to make-up for these things.
ex. Jan 30- early dismissal, Feb 18- ISE no school, Mar 1- no school, Mar 8- no school, Mar 15- no school,... in March it looks like school is cancelled every Friday... there you go, this is not at all necessary.
http://jackson.wv.schoolwebpages.com/educatio...
So, you don't think that it will snow anymore this year? You don't think that the school might need those weather days for their actual intended purpose for the rest of the winter? That's pretty bold on January 8th. Some days off are still working days for teachers as well. This really isn't a big deal.
Juicy Lucy

Point Pleasant, WV

#18 Jan 8, 2013
Louda wrote:
<quoted text>
So, you don't think that it will snow anymore this year? You don't think that the school might need those weather days for their actual intended purpose for the rest of the winter? That's pretty bold on January 8th. Some days off are still working days for teachers as well. This really isn't a big deal.
Its not a big deal? Is that why there are news crews slinking around Ravenswood at this very moment?
Juicy Lucy

Point Pleasant, WV

#19 Jan 8, 2013
bacon hater wrote:
I don't think that it conveys an endorsement of Christianity. Instead, I think it reflects the lack of diversity in our community. If we had a synagogue or mosque, they likely would've been used or considered as well. Having said that, I am confident that the BOE will be hounded over this, and they should be forced to explain themselves to greater degree. I want to know the fees, if any, being levied on the schools by the churches. If they are donating their facilities, kudos to the churches involved. If not, it is a disgrace typical of our religious establishment.
Surely you don't really believe that our bible-thumping community would embrace this same idea if school would be held at a mosque or a synagogue.
Juicy Lucy

Point Pleasant, WV

#20 Jan 8, 2013
I was wondering how long it would take for the 'nuts' and 'clueless' icons to appear.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker
First Prev
of 9
Next Last

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Ravenswood Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
Ravenswood PD 26 min snarky anarchy 9
Trump to Institute "Purge Nights" 4 Times A Year 28 min snarky anarchy 3
pissed off citizen 44 min snarky anarchy 18
transfer 3 hr vikings 10
Silverton marathon Mon Citizen 1
Jaron sampson Mon Newfriend 11
Miranda Dec 1 lilmama 7

Ravenswood Jobs

More from around the web

Personal Finance

Ravenswood Mortgages