xxxrayted

Maple Heights, OH

#32347 Aug 3, 2014
Canton wrote:
<quoted text>
Would you say that following passages in the Bible directly attributed to being said by Jesus Christ is something that defines CHRISTians?
"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." Jesus Christ
Religions pick and choose what they wish to believe out of the Bible. That's what distinguishes one religion from another. No religion (to my knowledge) believes or follows everything in the Bible.

Even the religions that believe in the same passages define the meanings behind those passages in different ways. For instance, the passage you posted does have a meaning, but it's not what you think. God doesn't have any problem with wealthy people. The actual meaning behind the passage you wrote is about people who chose money over their God, not that money is evil.

You can't tell people of any religion that abortion isn't murder no more than they can tell you man isn't causing climate change. People have the right to believe whatever it is they want to believe. You can debate them of course, but you can't tell them they can't believe what they believe because you disagree with it.
d pantz

Toledo, OH

#32348 Aug 3, 2014
Canton wrote:
So let's see. Freedom of religion...as long as it's Christianity.........
only you have said this.
Old Guy

Cincinnati, OH

#32349 Aug 3, 2014
xxxrayted wrote:
<quoted text>
The article and links beg the question if these herbal remedies even worked and if they were safe. I would say those are pretty good questions, especially given the fact the bible doesn't mention abortion or these magic potions as if they were non-existant.
I'm no Bible guy as you probably are not either. But if we could honestly answer the question, do you think God or Jesus would approve of any kind of abortion either then or now?
Also, why do most if not all religions consider abortion murder? Okay, we are no biblical scholars, but I would think the people who lead these religions are.
You are misusing the phrase "begs the question" as a fancy way to say "asks the question." That's not what it means. "Begs the question" is a logical fallacy, where one assumes the very conclusion they are trying to prove.

When someone trying to prove a point does not offer evidence, but instead asks pointed questions that assumes the point they are trying to make, they are employing this fallacy.(It is also a lazy way to argue, because you don't have to actually support your argument with evidence.)

When someone actually makes a statement, it can be challenged with facts. When you say "given the fact the bible doesn't mention abortion or these magic potions as if they were non-existant", it is easy for me to offer evidence that abortifacients DID exist in Biblical times.

"Abortion was recorded in 1550 B.C.E. in Egypt, recorded in what is called the Ebers Papyrus (note 2) and in ancient China about 500 B.C.E. as well (note 3). In China, folklore dates the use of mercury to induce abortions to about 5,000 years ago (note 4). Of course, mercury is extremely toxic.

Hippocrates also offered abortion to his patients despite being opposed to pessaries and potions which he considered too dangerous."

http://womenshistory.about.com/od/abortion/a/...

The fact that abortifacients did exist, but are not mentioned in the Bible suggests that our prohibitions against abortion came about later. In this country, laws against abortion did not arise until the 1800s. Before that, English common law forbid abortions only after "the quickening" (the stage of pregnancy when fetal movements are detected.)

Here's a good, short, easy to read, summary of the history of abortion:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/abortion/legal/hi...
xxxrayted wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm no Bible guy as you probably are not either.
Unlike you, I am a reader. I read many things, including the Bible, so, in that sense, I am a "Bible guy." That doesn't suggest that I believe all that I read there. I also read the Greek, Roman, and Norse myths, and can also discuss the content of those stories, even without believing them to be literal fact. I am very interested in the history of religions.
d pantz

Toledo, OH

#32350 Aug 3, 2014
so lets get this straight. Corporations can screw people out of healthcare by offering only part time positions and thats okay but we need to shit our pants because a church doesnt want to cover an employee's abortion? While I dont really agree with either I still feel like one priority should be more important here and the other is just a distraction from the root of the problems we have with the corporate motto
Old Guy

Cincinnati, OH

#32351 Aug 3, 2014
xxxrayted wrote:
<quoted text>
Religions pick and choose what they wish to believe out of the Bible. That's what distinguishes one religion from another. No religion (to my knowledge) believes or follows everything in the Bible.
I think you probably have two problems here. One is lack of vocabulary, the other is lack of experience with other religions. The Old Testament is held in common by three major religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The New Testament is sacred only to Christians. I think what you meant to say was that Christian SECTS define themselves by how they interpret the Bible. By lack of experience, I mean that you have lived all of your life in a very Christian world, and it's easy for you to believe that those rules apply everywhere.

But Buddhists don't follow the Bible.Nor do Hindus, or Sikhs, or Confucians.
xxxrayted wrote:
<quoted text>
You can't tell people of any religion that abortion isn't murder no more than they can tell you man isn't causing climate change.
Well, you can certainly tell Jews that, because "93% of all American Jews support legalized abortion."

http://www.jewishjournal.com/judaismandscienc...
Old Guy

Cincinnati, OH

#32352 Aug 3, 2014
xxxrayted wrote:
<quoted text>
For instance, the passage you posted does have a meaning, but it's not what you think. God doesn't have any problem with wealthy people. The actual meaning behind the passage you wrote is about people who chose money over their God, not that money is evil.
I thought you told me you weren't a "bible guy", and yet here you are, interpreting Scripture! I'm guessing you heard someone say this in the past, and you believed them, and now echo their words.

The best thing for you to do is to actually read that story in the Bible, and see it in context. It appears in several different books, but I'm going to choose Matthew's version. Here it is, in a modern English version (Matthew 19:16-23):

"A Rich Young Man

16 A man came to Jesus and asked,“Teacher, what good thing must I do to have eternal life?”

17 Jesus said to him,“Why do you ask me about what is good? Only God is good. If you want to have eternal life, you must obey his commandments.”

18 “Which ones?” the man asked.

Jesus answered,“Do not murder. Be faithful in marriage. Do not steal. Do not tell lies about others. 19 Respect your father and mother. And love others as much as you love yourself.” 20 The young man said,“I have obeyed all of these. What else must I do?”

21 Jesus replied,“If you want to be perfect, go sell everything you own! Give the money to the poor, and you will have riches in heaven. Then come and be my follower.” 22 When the young man heard this, he was sad, because he was very rich.

23 Jesus said to his disciples,“It’s terribly hard for rich people to get into the kingdom of heaven!"

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...

I think that meaning is pretty clear, even if modern materialists find it as hard to swallow now as the young rich man did then,
xxxrayted

Maple Heights, OH

#32353 Aug 3, 2014
Old Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...
I think that meaning is pretty clear, even if modern materialists find it as hard to swallow now as the young rich man did then,
"Jesus’ message is clear—it is impossible for anyone to be saved on his own merits. Since wealth was seen as proof of God’s approval, it was commonly taught by the rabbis that rich people were blessed by God and were, therefore, the most likely candidates for heaven. Jesus destroyed that notion, and along with it, the idea that anyone can earn eternal life. The disciples had the appropriate response to this startling statement. They were utterly amazed and asked,“Who then can be saved?” in the next verse. If the wealthy among them, which included the super-spiritual Pharisees and scribes, were unworthy of heaven, what hope was there for a poor man?

Jesus’ answer is the basis of the gospel: "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God" (Matthew 19:26). Men are saved through God’s gifts of grace, mercy, and faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). Nothing we do earns salvation for us. It is the poor in spirit who inherit the kingdom of God (Matthew 5:3), those who recognize their spiritual poverty and their utter inability to do anything to justify themselves to a holy God. The rich man so often is blind to his spiritual poverty because he is proud of his accomplishments and has contented himself with his wealth. He is as likely to humble himself before God as a camel is to crawl through the eye of a needle."

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/camel-eye-needle....
Old Guy

Cincinnati, OH

#32354 Aug 3, 2014
xxxrayted wrote:
<quoted text>
"Jesus’ message is clear—it is impossible for anyone to be saved on his own merits.
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/camel-eye-needle....
Do you really need some anonymous person's interpretation of that Scripture? You got the original book! How could the meaning be any clearer? Jesus told the rich young man to sell his possessions, and give the money to the poor. Do you think he was joking? Why do you think that Jesuits take a vow of poverty?
woo-boy

Waverly, OH

#32355 Aug 3, 2014
xxxrayted wrote:
<quoted text>
"Jesus’ message is clear—it is impossible for anyone to be saved on his own merits. Since wealth was seen as proof of God’s approval, it was commonly taught by the rabbis that rich people were blessed by God and were, therefore, the most likely candidates for heaven. Jesus destroyed that notion, and along with it, the idea that anyone can earn eternal life. The disciples had the appropriate response to this startling statement. They were utterly amazed and asked,“Who then can be saved?” in the next verse. If the wealthy among them, which included the super-spiritual Pharisees and scribes, were unworthy of heaven, what hope was there for a poor man?
Jesus’ answer is the basis of the gospel: "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God" (Matthew 19:26). Men are saved through God’s gifts of grace, mercy, and faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). Nothing we do earns salvation for us. It is the poor in spirit who inherit the kingdom of God (Matthew 5:3), those who recognize their spiritual poverty and their utter inability to do anything to justify themselves to a holy God. The rich man so often is blind to his spiritual poverty because he is proud of his accomplishments and has contented himself with his wealth. He is as likely to humble himself before God as a camel is to crawl through the eye of a needle."
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/camel-eye-needle....
Nice try, OG spanked you once again. HeeHee!
xxxrayted

Maple Heights, OH

#32356 Aug 3, 2014
Old Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you really need some anonymous person's interpretation of that Scripture? You got the original book! How could the meaning be any clearer? Jesus told the rich young man to sell his possessions, and give the money to the poor. Do you think he was joking? Why do you think that Jesuits take a vow of poverty?
Why? Because as explained in the link I posted, it's not that money is evil nor that people with money are evil. It's because people with money tend to be too consumed with their wealth to truly accept God according to Jesus.

If you read the paragraph before, it stated that Rabbis always taught that wealth is a gift from God and that it was indicative of Gods approval of those individuals. Jesus disagreed with that theory. So we have a contradiction there.

Now if you want to debate just the words of Jesus, then what is wealthy? Certainly wealthy today is different than wealthy of Jesus' time. Is having over 10 grand in the bank wealthy and enough to stop you from getting into heaven? How about 50 grand? How about a 300K house or larger? A $35,000 or more expensive car? Is wealthy having cable television or a big screen? Is too wealthy being able to afford the internet and having utilities like natural gas, propane, electricity?

Well.... Jesus said give away everything you have. So is any possession too much wealth? It's very subjective especially if you want to compare what times were like back then to today. Maybe none of us will ever get to heaven.
xxxrayted

Maple Heights, OH

#32357 Aug 3, 2014
woo-boy wrote:
<quoted text>Nice try, OG spanked you once again. HeeHee!
Well trolls definitely don't go to heaven.......... you will be missed.
Pops

Cincinnati, OH

#32358 Aug 3, 2014
Canton wrote:
<quoted text>
It also doesn't mention anything about turning the old and feeble into food for cattle.
that's good for you, your mom & dad & your grandparents. And IF anyone claims to be part of your family tree.
Pops

Cincinnati, OH

#32359 Aug 3, 2014
Canton wrote:
<quoted text>
If only Jesus ever existed, then you'd really have a point. Wonder why the guy who made dead people get up and walk around isn't documented outside of the Bible? Let me know if you want to know what Caesar ate for breakfast, what time he ate it and on what date he was eating it and who joined him that day for breakfast. He neat. Jesus disappeared from the Bible for 30 years. Wonder what he was up to during that time? I'm guessing he was hanging out with Santa Claus and bigfoot. I think the fact that you claim to not be religious and then talk about Jesus like he was a proven historical figure speaks volumes.
The Jews, Muslims AND Christians ALL believe that Jesus lived. To NOT believe so makes you one out of perhaps 5. Why do you have to insult 80% of everyone else in the WORLD that hasn't done you harm? I know, it's because YOU are a Kool Aide drinking Jack Wagon!
Pops

Cincinnati, OH

#32360 Aug 3, 2014
d pantz wrote:
<quoted text> Right? All those Catholics voted with their Korans? I swear some people are just programmed to believe this crap. Guess what! Obana won. He got a the most votes it pretty much all demographics! Democrats.... you own the nascar voter too!
That's my point. That Cantoon s talking B.S.
Old Guy

Cincinnati, OH

#32361 Aug 3, 2014
Pops wrote:
<quoted text> The Jews, Muslims AND Christians ALL believe that Jesus lived. To NOT believe so makes you one out of perhaps 5. Why do you have to insult 80% of everyone else in the WORLD that hasn't done you harm? I know, it's because YOU are a Kool Aide drinking Jack Wagon!
Pops, I believe that Jesus was a historical figure, and not a myth. I don't think he was "the son of God" --- I think he was a man like you and me. I suspect that lots of the "miraculous" aspects of his story were added after his death, and often adapted from earlier stories. People working in an oral tradition often add and subtract bits of the story along the way.

By the way, not all Jews, Muslims, or even all Christians believe that Jesus actually existed. Only Christians see him as the son of God. Jews and Muslims see him as a prophet, but still just a man.
Pops wrote:
<quoted text>Why do you have to insult 80% of everyone else in the WORLD that hasn't done you harm? I know, it's because YOU are a Kool Aide drinking Jack Wagon!
Ephesians 4:31-32 King James Version (KJV):

"Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...
ino

Waverly, OH

#32362 Aug 3, 2014
d pantz

Detroit, MI

#32363 Aug 4, 2014
Pops wrote:
<quoted text>That's my point. That Cantoon s talking B.S.
More like incoherent babble.
woo-boy

Waverly, OH

#32364 Aug 4, 2014
xxxrayted wrote:
<quoted text>
Well trolls definitely don't go to heaven.......... you will be missed.
I don't think that hateful, bigoted racists are welcome with open arms either....you won't be missed. Plus side...coffee never get's cold.
woo-boy

Waverly, OH

#32365 Aug 4, 2014
Pops wrote:
<quoted text>that's good for you, your mom & dad & your grandparents. And IF anyone claims to be part of your family tree.
That's a good one...coming from someone in Kentucky.
Canton

Canton, OH

#32366 Aug 4, 2014
d pantz wrote:
<quoted text> More like incoherent babble.
...he exclaimed, as he wholeheartedly agreed with Pops, the guy who has to have everything explained to him 100 times, and still doesn't understand.

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