Breakaway congregations form new Angl...

Breakaway congregations form new Anglican diocese

There are 26 comments on the seattletimes.nwsource.com story from Apr 4, 2009, titled Breakaway congregations form new Anglican diocese. In it, seattletimes.nwsource.com reports that:

At least eight conservative congregations in Western Washington - including two that left the Episcopal Church - are forming a new Anglican diocese in the Northwest.

The Cascadia Diocese, as it's being called, is the latest local example of the deep divisions splitting the Episcopal Church and the Anglican Communion over issues such as Scriptural authority and church teachings ...

Join the discussion below, or Read more at seattletimes.nwsource.com.

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“... truth will out.”

Since: May 08

Stratford, Connecticut.

#1 Apr 4, 2009
"... Heated court battles over millions of dollars in church property that are being fought in other dioceses most likely won't be happening here — at least for now.
St. Charles and St. Stephen's have an agreement with the Episcopal Church's Olympia Diocese, which has about 31,000 members in Western Washington. The agreement, which runs until 2014, allows each parish to continue worshipping in the same buildings they had been all along, with neither the congregations nor diocese claiming ownership."

So it can be done w/o lawsuits after all.
KGC

Springfield, IL

#2 Apr 4, 2009
Joe DeCaro wrote:
"... So it can be done w/o lawsuits after all.
Dear Joe,

You know? I just see this as more of the same.

The solution being to not resolve their differences or - classically - agreeing to disagree and attempting to maintain some sort of status quo just parks people in spiritual limbo.

It may be the only thing that these parties can do, short of duking it out in court. But, where does the bishop of an Episcopal Diocese get off by not defending TEC and its worldly assets?

This kind of arrangement is pusillanimous on the part of the bishop. It is a trespass on the part of the bishop's split-Diocesan adversary.

Such lukewarmish refusal to take on dilemma is a reflection of a style of Obamish non-decisionmaking. It doesn't work and it shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the value of honesty, integrity and functional principle.

The answer for the appeasing bishop is to take a principled position and defend it with all of his might and faith. If he is somehow wrong in honestly trying, Christ will find a way to forgive him. But, to refuse to defend what he knows to be right is evidence of a profound sickness.

What are the teachings of Christ Jesus?

First of all, and this is precisely why this difficulty has occurred in the first place, these teachings are not being taught or acted upon with faith by the bishop.

But, succinctly, in this instance, Christ Jesus reserves the right to pass judgment on the penalty of sin, real or perceived, to himself.

We are taught to look beyond our own perceptions of sin in the behavior of others and to actively remove impediments to the building of bridges to Christ. This includes disposing of man-made catch 22's that have the effect of limiting the spiritual development of others. Saying that sex outside of marriage is a sin and then refusing to permit marriage is the creation of a catch-22. To the couple seeking the legitimized union, you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. No fair.

I cannot emphasize enough that this schism is of our own making. It is a direct result of a failure on the part of our bishops to teach and insist upon what they know to be correct and true: That is, that there are established priorities such as "removing the logs from our own eyes before attempting to remove the splinters from the eyes of others."

Third, we are making a very big mountain out of a mole hill. The mole hill is the acceptance of the fact that there may be certain monogamous same-sex relationships that deserve our compassionate blessing instead of our obstinate condemnation resulting in shunning.

Let's get on with the creation and implementation of such blessings. If we are wrong, so be it.

If others can't can't stomach such blessings, let them gather together and form their own churches. But, do it with a faith in their decisions, not relying on or attempting to build upon the financial assets of the group from which they are departing.

Such is the requirement of stepping out in faith. And if you want any example, scripture is plenty good enough. That is because it took a lot more faith than what this simple effort would require when Peter took the Lord's hand in the middle of a storm on the Sea of Galilee.

KGC

“... truth will out.”

Since: May 08

Stratford, Connecticut.

#3 Apr 4, 2009
KGC wrote:
... It may be the only thing that these parties can do, short of duking it out in court. But, where does the bishop of an Episcopal Diocese get off by not defending TEC and its worldly assets?
Maybe this bishop's kingdom isn't of this world?
KGC

Springfield, IL

#4 Apr 5, 2009
Joe DeCaro wrote:
<quoted text>
Maybe this bishop's kingdom isn't of this world?
Dear Joe,

The bishop's kingdom isn't supposed to be "of this world."

However, his Diocesan duties are very much "in this world."

But, to suggest or to operate on that premise while refusing to apply and exhibit Christ's teachings to events and substance existing in the physical plane is to fail to connect Christ to our everyday lives. That is a copout and a mistake born out of weakness and appeasement.

Ask yourself. What benefits are to be gained by putting off decisions resolving disputes over ownership and disposition of property and endowments that are supposed to be under the bishop's purview, but have been comandeered by a cabal of mutinous adversaries?

OOH! They are just nice people who disagree with us and who have decided on their own to take $millions$ of our property and endowments to use as they wish, including to actively oppose our efforts to teach what we believe to be right and true.

Either you fight this ignorant hypocrisy tooth and nail or you hand everything they want to them, sign over the deeds, hand them the keys, sign over the books and the bank accounts and the stocks and bonds, smiling and wishing them well and dusting off your feet as you depart on the last time you set foot as a bishop in THEIR church.

Otherwise, the sickness just permeates your faith, regardless of which side you proclaim to be supporting. You become stuck and worthless at the same time, capitulating to wrongful and adversarial occupancy.

KGC

“... truth will out.”

Since: May 08

Stratford, Connecticut.

#5 Apr 5, 2009
KGC wrote:
... What benefits are to be gained by putting off decisions resolving disputes over ownership and disposition of property and endowments that are supposed to be under the bishop's purview, but have been comandeered by a cabal of mutinous adversaries?
Is that TEC's latest description of its former parishoners?

But seriously, the split in TEC is a lose-lose proposition for all concerned; if the majority of parishoners leave the parish and legally lose the building, the minority is left paying all the overhead costs, which can be considerable for a small congregation.
KGC

Springfield, IL

#6 Apr 6, 2009
Joe DeCaro wrote:
<quoted text>
Is that TEC's latest description of its former parishoners?
But seriously, the split in TEC is a lose-lose proposition for all concerned; if the majority of parishoners leave the parish and legally lose the building, the minority is left paying all the overhead costs, which can be considerable for a small congregation.
Dear Joe,

Well, I'll admit to being caught exaggerating by calling my fellow Christian parishioners "a cabal of mutinous adversaries."

But, really! They are absconding with the real estate and the endowments even as they most assuredly split from TEC. So, what is that? A Sunday picnic where the picnickers pick our knickers???

Lose-lose? Only for the side that loses!

Which side is that? Well, its the side that loses, of course!

No. You don't let people take these trappings with them as they depart. You and I have discussed this before. The bishop Duncans of the world are the Fletcher Christians. It is a mutiny because they won't or can't accept the course established by the House of Bishops, of which they are or were voting members.

Then, when they refuse to accept the majority view out of an honest conscience and decide to depart, they should depart without claiming ownership to the property. Only one exception should prevail: that is, if the holding was specifically withheld and not accepted into the body of TEC. There are very few properties in this category.

If the properties are sacrificed by the division, that is the price of division, regardless of viability.

Exhaustive introspection in the context of modern research and findings regarding human sexuality should reveal that which must become acceptable.

Personal integrity, instead of obstinate segregation should follow.

KGC

“... truth will out.”

Since: May 08

Stratford, Connecticut.

#7 Apr 6, 2009
KGC wrote:
... Lose-lose? Only for the side that loses!
Which side is that? Well, its the side that loses, of course!
I assume you're only referring to the court case, but look at the whole picture; if only a remnant of the original Episcopal congregation is left w/a cathedral-sized structure, how are they going to pay for the heating, A/C and other bills, esp. in the current economy?
KGC

Springfield, IL

#8 Apr 7, 2009
Joe DeCaro wrote:
<quoted text>
I assume you're only referring to the court case, but look at the whole picture; if only a remnant of the original Episcopal congregation is left w/a cathedral-sized structure, how are they going to pay for the heating, A/C and other bills, esp. in the current economy?
Joe,

A house divided against itself cannot stand.

We are talking about buildings. They are nice expensive to build, maintain and preserve. But, they are outward manifestations of the inward reality. If we do not build, maintain and preserve the inward reality, of what use is the outward?

Suppose we take a single church of, say, 300 Episcopalians. Let's say that 160 prefer to align with a theology that believes homosexual behavior cannot be supported by Reason, Tradition and Scripture. 140 insist that due to modern revelations regarding normal variations in human sexuality, Reason trumps both Tradition and Scripture where these do not allow same-sex relationships to be made sacred. The two sides reach deep into each other's psyche to find a force of commonality, but they are unable to reconcile what they believe to be a divide over a fundamental understanding. That is, that New Testament Scripture defines both marriage to be between a man and a woman and that homosexual relationship is unnatural and cannot be condoned.

The House is divided.

How does such a house conduct itself? How does it evangelize and proselytize? How does it present itself as divided, yet unified in purpose?

How does it raise money and grow and fill the pews? It probably doesn't.

We can't see ahead five years, clearly. But, we probably can see well enough to say that these parishes in their "Cascadian Anglican Province" will come to the end of their agreed period of stasis only to find that their disagreement with TEC is still there. In the meantime, their cohabitation will have prevented both sides from enthusiastically seeking growth.

What and who will suffer?

KGC

“... truth will out.”

Since: May 08

Stratford, Connecticut.

#9 Apr 7, 2009
KGC wrote:
Joe,
A house divided against itself cannot stand ... What and who will suffer?
KGC
Everyone - that's why I popsted it was a "lose-lose" situation, but it was inevitable under Schori's leadership.
KGC

Springfield, IL

#10 Apr 7, 2009
Joe DeCaro wrote:
<quoted text>
Everyone - that's why I popsted it was a "lose-lose" situation, but it was inevitable under Schori's leadership.
Joe,

The House of Bishops elected Jefferts-Schori. She is the appropriate spokesperson for their determination.

In my opinion, she's doing a fine job.

KGC

Daniel P from Long Island

“Protestant, Gay, Libertarian”

Since: Apr 08

Long Island, NY

#11 Apr 7, 2009
I'm a Christian, but not an Episcopal. However I have followed the goings-on in The Episcopal Church for many years with great interest.

The ENTIRE REASON that there are so many Christian denominations i because not everyone can agree on everything.

In this case, I think the conservatives who are splitting from The Episcopal Church are morally and legally wrong.

Having said that, the simplest and BEST solution who for people who have decided that they cannot live in The Episcopal Church anymore, for whatever reason, is to simply split amicably and establish a new denomination. But in doing so, the funds, property, and other assets of The Episcopal Church MUST be respected and not be stolen by the dissenters.

“... truth will out.”

Since: May 08

Stratford, Connecticut.

#12 Apr 7, 2009
KGC wrote:
<quoted text>
Joe,
The House of Bishops elected Jefferts-Schori. She is the appropriate spokesperson for their determination.
In my opinion, she's doing a fine job.
KGC
Although many point to Robisnon as the cause of the schism in TEC, although he was consecrated back in Nov 2003, the mass exodus of former Episcopalians didn't happen until Schori started playing hardball.

Compared w/Capt. Blythe in "Mutiny on the Bountry," under Schori, this ship is coming apart at the seams.

Daniel P from Long Island

“Protestant, Gay, Libertarian”

Since: Apr 08

Long Island, NY

#13 Apr 7, 2009
Joe DeCaro wrote:
<quoted text>
Although many point to Robisnon as the cause of the schism in TEC, although he was consecrated back in Nov 2003, the mass exodus of former Episcopalians didn't happen until Schori started playing hardball.
Compared w/Capt. Blythe in "Mutiny on the Bountry," under Schori, this ship is coming apart at the seams.
It's "Captain Bligh", you idiot.

"Blythe" was Bill Clinton's name before he legally changed it to "Clinton" when he was 16 years old.

“... truth will out.”

Since: May 08

Stratford, Connecticut.

#14 Apr 7, 2009
Daniel P from Long Island wrote:
... "Blythe" was Bill Clinton's name before he legally changed it to "Clinton" when he was 16 years old.
William Jefferson Blythe III; I thought they were related.
KGC

Springfield, IL

#15 Apr 7, 2009
Joe DeCaro wrote:
<quoted text>
Although many point to Robisnon as the cause of the schism in TEC, although he was consecrated back in Nov 2003, the mass exodus of former Episcopalians didn't happen until Schori started playing hardball.
Compared w/Capt. Blythe in "Mutiny on the Bountry," under Schori, this ship is coming apart at the seams.
Hah!

Bligh. A peculiarly unpleasant man and an experienced seaman. But, after they were set adrift, he and the rest of his few supporters successfully rowed and drifted to civilization in the West Indies, I believe. Then, after arriving in England, he successfully sought and brought most of the mutineers to the gallows.

Fletcher Christian died only a year or so after the mutiny.

Don't underestimate any faction of Christianity. TEC will be around long after Jefferts-Schori retires from her post. She will be regarded as successful, pragmatic, a velvet covered brick and true disciple of Christ Jesus who served in her post with distinction during a very difficult time and under very difficult circumstances.

May Christ and the Heavenly Host keep her faith healthy and her will strong.

KGC

“... truth will out.”

Since: May 08

Stratford, Connecticut.

#16 Apr 8, 2009
KGC wrote:
... Don't underestimate any faction of Christianity. TEC will be around long after Jefferts-Schori retires from her post.
But after that, I wonder if anyone will be able to recognize TEC for the church it was.
KGC

Springfield, IL

#17 Apr 8, 2009
Joe DeCaro wrote:
<quoted text>
But after that, I wonder if anyone will be able to recognize TEC for the church it was.
Joe,

Does it really matter? If both sides are following and practicing their best understanding in faith, won't Christ Jesus help them out of whatever their illness is?

We wonder if the division of the Church which created the Protestant Movement was an heresy or whether it was actually a Righteous adaptation in light of particularly inconsistent and even vicious practices entrenched in the pre-reformation Church.

We suspect that acquiescence to the insistence of Papal Infallibility is a source and permission of corruption and unreasonable dictatorship.

Why not regard this schismatic dispute as the normal outcome of following the Truth, which, in faith, shall result in a liberty delivered to us by the Holy Spirit?

Have we no faith? Why can't we believe that the willingness to take on this ancient dilemma is both a courageous and righteous course of action?

In other words, didn't Christ Jesus offer himself up to be crucified in order to take on the very dilemmas that our difficulties are exhibiting?

If so, we shouldn't fear any result of an honest division just because it could result in healthy changes made in defense of individual liberty.

KGC

“... truth will out.”

Since: May 08

Stratford, Connecticut.

#18 Apr 8, 2009
KGC wrote:
... Why not regard this schismatic dispute as the normal outcome of following the Truth, which, in faith, shall result in a liberty delivered to us by the Holy Spirit?
Too much chaos and confusion to be from God.
Think Again

Fremont, NC

#19 Apr 8, 2009
Joe DeCaro wrote:
<quoted text>
Too much chaos and confusion to be from God.
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1 Corinthians 14:33
KGC

Springfield, IL

#20 Apr 9, 2009
Think Again wrote:
<quoted text>
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1 Corinthians 14:33
"Do you think that I have come to bring peace to the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division!"
Luke 12:51

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword."
Matthew 10:34

KGC

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