10 Commandments monument stirring controversy in county

A monument of the Ten Commandments has the blessing of all three commissioners in Leflore County.

[Vernon Young]

Way to go commisioners

[Fabioso]

What a crappy article.

It contains no detail whatsoever that could clue us in on whether the placement of this monument might violate the Establishment clause or not.

This is why people should never rely on the media to report on legal issues. They rarely if ever get it right.

[msbobbie]

Fabioso wrote:

What a crappy article.
It contains no detail whatsoever that could clue us in on whether the placement of this monument might violate the Establishment clause or not.
This is why people should never rely on the media to report on legal issues. They rarely if ever get it right.

Didn't SCOTUS already rule on that? I know the monument still stands on the courthouse lawn in neighboring Haskell County.

[Fabioso]

msbobbie wrote:

<quoted text>
Didn't SCOTUS already rule on that? I know the monument still stands on the courthouse lawn in neighboring Haskell County.

I think an appellate court ruled on it, and decided to leave it alone because it met some exception.

Which doesn't bother me too much really. Establishment clause cases are extremely tricky, and ones "close to the (fuzzy) line" can go either way sometimes - turning on even a minor detail.

This kind of thing is a lot more complicated than most people realize.

[TFALLEN]

I agree that religious morals are good, but tenets of religions should be left out. I don't think they should have the 10 commandments in front of a courthouse. Put them in your front yard if you want to.

[Zachalo]

if we can put the 10 commandments on the courthouse lawn, then why not put the 4 noble truths on the lawn as well... if a christian view or value is put on that lawn, then so should a buddhist's or an hindu or jewish or even muslim views... i think that christianity is a good thing, i believe that the bible is a great idea... there is nothing in that book that will hurt you if you follow it... BUT the people have a right to have their own religion and if the city is going to put a monument in a public place on public land, then how would they react if i put a statue of Buddha right next to that on my own dime? if the answer is anything but "it would be fine" then there shouldnt be any allowance for religious tenants being posted for any faith or religion...

[Anubis]

Oh, please. Not this again. It is just becoming a fad now. I’m sure next in the next few months, if this generates enough buzz for the county, then I’m sure another will follow suit and we’ll hear it all again…and again…and again…

Every town, county, etc. that is controlled by religious conservatives seems to be taking there turn at this controversy and they know it is controversy. Don’t tell me they don’t. It is simply flaunting that they can place religious monuments on government property. Oh, and isn’t it just funny the way these are on the grounds of a government that is supposed to be representing the people, not spitting in their face and laughing at them for philosophical/religious differences.

It’s simply childish “I’m right and you’re wrong”, thrown into the faces of those who can’t do anything about it. It’s those in power shoving their thoughts down the throats of the people they are supposed to serve. Even if the government didn’t come up with the idea of putting the monument up, they allowed it, knowing full well what it represents.

If you want to put up religious items, do it on every church lawn in town and at the homes of every willing person, but don’t place it on government property.

Being from Stigler (yeah…another place the fad has taken hold) and having different ideas from those of the über-christians in the area, I am well aware that no matter what is said in forums or denied by those in the area, they are quite hostile (both direct hostility and otherwise) toward anyone of a different religion, and many times different ideas about the same one they believe. Quick, how many billions of years ago did God create the universe? See, some of you were utterly offended by the idea that God could have done anything in a cosmic time scale (millions and billions), not a human one (hundreds and thousands).

The US Laws are not based on the 10 commandments. Those laws that overlap the 10 commandments are just common sense and have been adopted (long, long ago) by pretty much everyone on earth (like don’t kill or steal). Even if the laws were based on the 10 commandments, our governmental system is based on that of Greece and Rome, who, in the eyes of those claiming that the 10 commandments monuments are historical (thinly veiled if you ask me) are…gasp…Pagans!!!

[TFALLEN]

I totally agree, put up the Wiccan Rede, and a nice quote from the Dali Lama too, maybe the 9 Noble Virtues from Norse beliefs. I find them less offensive. The very first commandment is that of a jealous god. Isn't jealousy one of the seven deadly sins?

Besides, anyone who thinks their particular theology (or mythology) is the only one and true way is both arrogant and ignorant.

[Religious Freedom]

You have the right to worship as you please. No one has you backed up against a concrete wall with machine guns aimed at you, as happens in many, many other countries where Christians are persecuted.

Except in Islamic countries, you would be welcomed as an atheist, Buddist, Pagan or Wiccan.
No, it's only Jews and Christians that are persecuted. Ask yourself honestly...why that is?
Have you ever considered even for a moment, there is an adverserial force counter to GOD?

Rediscovering God in America Movie:

http://www.blinkx.com/video/rediscovering-god...

[Anubis]

Sorry, but it isn't only the christians and jews being persecuted. Besides, this isn't about other countries, but this one and it's laws. At some point in time, just about every religion has been oppressed and persecuted. I myself have been threatened by christians for not believing what they believe. How christian is that? It seems to be human nature to try to shove ideas down someone else’s throat if that someone disagrees.

Christians can be quite hostile to those who don’t follow their beliefs, particularly in Oklahoma. When I was in High School in Stigler, a Japanese exchange student came to Stigler. The christians wouldn’t leave them alone for being a Buddhist, so much so that they had to leave Stigler. Yes, how christian of them to harass the poor student until they are forced to leave. Forget discussing culture or having meaningful discussions on what the individuals truly think and feel, let’s just try to convert them in the most “in your face” confrontational way.

Being a christian in Oklahoma is easy. No one is trying to beat you down and almost everyone has your back, religiously speaking. Being something else is not.(Even drunken rednecks will defend Christianity, while simultaneously violating several of its rules, like being drunk, using words that definitely aren’t christian and threatening bodily harm.) It’s not because one is more right than the other, just that the christians definitely have more power in the area. I even had to fake being a devout christian for years in Stigler in order to avoid the conflicts (both verbal and physical) with people there. Most people I know in Stigler still don’t know. I knew people who weren’t christians then and life was not made easy for them.

[TFALLEN]

Religious Freedom wrote:

You have the right to worship as you please. No one has you backed up against a concrete wall with machine guns aimed at you, as happens in many, many other countries where Christians are persecuted.
Except in Islamic countries, you would be welcomed as an atheist, Buddist, Pagan or Wiccan.
No, it's only Jews and Christians that are persecuted. Ask yourself honestly...why that is?
Have you ever considered even for a moment, there is an adverserial force counter to GOD?
Rediscovering God in America Movie:
http://www.blinkx.com/video/rediscovering-god...

Anubis is right, what planet have you been living on? Do you remember the history lesson of the Inquisition?

I have seen atheists in this day and age being told by Christians they want nothing to do with them. Atheism isn't even a religion and they're getting persecuted.

I am agnostic, because anyone who claims they know the one truth about the spiritual nature of our existence is arrogant and ignorant. You have no proof in the Christian god, just as Wiccans have no proof in the Lord and Lady. I'm sure many Christians would call their pagan ways a sin, simply because they don't follow the beliefs told to them by a Christian church leader. In this day and age one gets persecuted for using logic and reason by thinking for yourself, instead of blindly accepting someone else's interpretation of a book a few thousand years old.

I don't condemn people for worshiping Christian or any other religion. I just despise arrogance, piety, and judgmental behavior based on ignorance.

[TheTenSuggestion s]

To: Lucifer the Most High and Enlightened One
From: Dracma, Overlord of Babylon
Subject: Designer “gods”
Illustrious Master,
You recall our first “tête-à-tête” in the Garden. You promised the “first couple” that they “would be like God, knowing good and evil.”(Genesis 3:5) What a juicy temptation! They went for it back then and they still do today! Not much has changed.
While Moses was up on the mountain getting the “Ten Suggestions” the Israelites were making a beautiful golden calf. When they finally arrived in the promised land, they couldn’t resist the local ladies and their hand crafted “gods”. Oh how they loved those little idols – things made by their own hands and they worshipped them as “gods”! What a concept! Some things never change.
Except that today, people worship other things without even knowing it. It could be their house, their career, their possessions or even themselves! But most people still have a need to find meaning for their sad little lives, so the paltry pieces of clay come up with their own ideas as to who the “Potter” is, what He is like and what rules He has, if any. Quite presumptuous creatures they have become, but ah, what can we say, we trained them well. So here we have man making G..d in his own image. What a concept! Today the world has entered a new age of intolerant tolerance. They tolerate any behavior especially when it comes to the “sin” word, any definition when it comes to the “marriage” word and support choice above all. After all, who knows what is best for man than man himself! There is only one thing they cannot tolerate and that is the rigid, inflexible person who is so old fashioned that he believes in a God of absolutes! No, all a person has to do is put on his thinking cap and create his own little god – whether it is the person himself or whatever concepts he or she may want to use to formulate their special version of “god.” The “Book” is irrelevant mythology at best or part of a horrible conspiracy at worst.
Gone are the absolutes. Gone is the harsh, judgmental, intolerant G..d of days gone by. Now people can use their best imagination and training to either design their own god or do away with him completely. And the time will come when those narrow minded, potentially radical and dangerous fundamentalists will have to be dealt with once and for all – that scourge of intolerance polluting the earth! Let people decide on their own. Let them create the god that suits them best. That’s what they have done for thousands of years. The idea that G..d had a plan to save mankind to have a relationship with Him has really got to go. It is much easier to decide for yourself what life is all about.
My most Illustrious Master! Our plans are coming together. Man has come a long way to eliminate superstition and intolerance. We are at the dawning of a new age. More on my plans in my next report.
Your humble servant,
Dracma
http://www.the-tribulation-network.com/new_tr...

[An Observer]

ToAnubis:
Anubis, Oddly enough I can not only agree with much of what you say, but I can relate as well. However, my experience was a little different than yours. I had a valid spiritual conversion and was very seriously trying to apply the teaching of Christ to my life. This conversion took place out of church by the way, but in my still naive and as yet unlearned state, I felt that since I was now a Christian, then I should go to church, and so I did for a number of years. As a devout believer, I actually prospered spiritually,.... there for a season. Then it came to the place where I began learning more, and studying more and gaining some actual insight, and illumination.
The upshot to all of this was that I began seeing things that were amiss in these churches, and some of the people were what I would call indoctrinated, and others simply lacked scriptural knowlege of the Bible, the book they claimed they lived by. Others claimed to live by the book, but they were more like the Pharisees Jesus took issue with for their hypocrisy.
I began to see the practices in these churches didn't live up to the standards of God, and so I packed up and left the churches...all of them.
A deep study of the Word after leaving, left me with the distict impression that the majority of members were not really Christians in the strictess sence, they were apostates, haven fallen away from the pure essece of the teachings of Christ.
However, before I left these churches, because I asked too many questions and didn't conform to church status quo, I began to be persecuted by these modern day Nicolaitans. I could no longer condone or reconcile my being part of a Laodician lukewarm, organized Nicolaitan system, which by the way has been handed down thru the generations as being the "way they do Church".
Now, I am an outcast. So, no, it's not always easy to be a Christian in Oklahoma or anywhere else in Amerika for that matter. And, you get labeled as a "fundie" by unbelievers, and as a outcast by Christians.
Now, having said that, and having read the bible, and gotten a grasp of it, I find the teachings of Jesus to be sublime. Let me point out that he made no alliance with the political powers of his day.....none!Following his example then, why should I?
So,I care not whether they place the Ten Commandments on the courthouse steps, or anywhere else. It means nothing unless the people begin living by them, which the majority will not.
Marx once said to a Christian, "I love your Jesus, but I despise his followers". He said a mouthful!
Do a little google of the doctrine and deeds of the Nicolaitans, the things Jesus said he hated, and you will see that all American churches fit in to that catagory. That's why they're the way they are...apostate. Apostasy means to fall away from the faith. And so....you have these pockets of Nicolaitanism on every street corner in America with few exceptions.
Finally, it is wise to observe that morality is not going to change by creating laws. You can't dictate morality by passing laws, or by placing a symbol of morality on a courthouse lawn. True change only comes through God

[TFALLEN]

TheTenSuggestions wrote:

To: Lucifer the Most High and Enlightened One
From: Dracma, Overlord of Babylon
Subject: Designer “gods”
Illustrious Master,
You recall our first “tête-à-tête” in the Garden. You promised the “first couple” that they “would be like God, knowing good and evil.”(Genesis 3:5) What a juicy temptation! They went for it back then and they still do today! Not much has changed.
While Moses was up on the mountain getting the “Ten Suggestions” the Israelites were making a beautiful golden calf. When they finally arrived in the promised land, they couldn’t resist the local ladies and their hand crafted “gods”. Oh how they loved those little idols – things made by their own hands and they worshipped them as “gods”! What a concept! Some things never change.
Except that today, people worship other things without even knowing it. It could be their house, their career, their possessions or even themselves! But most people still have a need to find meaning for their sad little lives, so the paltry pieces of clay come up with their own ideas as to who the “Potter” is, what He is like and what rules He has, if any. Quite presumptuous creatures they have become, but ah, what can we say, we trained them well. So here we have man making G..d in his own image. What a concept! Today the world has entered a new age of intolerant tolerance. They tolerate any behavior especially when it comes to the “sin” word, any definition when it comes to the “marriage” word and support choice above all. After all, who knows what is best for man than man himself! There is only one thing they cannot tolerate and that is the rigid, inflexible person who is so old fashioned that he believes in a God of absolutes! No, all a person has to do is put on his thinking cap and create his own little god – whether it is the person himself or whatever concepts he or she may want to use to formulate their special version of “god.” The “Book” is irrelevant mythology at best or part of a horrible conspiracy at worst.
Gone are the absolutes. Gone is the harsh, judgmental, intolerant G..d of days gone by. Now people can use their best imagination and training to either design their own god or do away with him completely. And the time will come when those narrow minded, potentially radical and dangerous fundamentalists will have to be dealt with once and for all – that scourge of intolerance polluting the earth! Let people decide on their own. Let them create the god that suits them best. That’s what they have done for thousands of years. The idea that G..d had a plan to save mankind to have a relationship with Him has really got to go. It is much easier to decide for yourself what life is all about.
My most Illustrious Master! Our plans are coming together. Man has come a long way to eliminate superstition and intolerance. We are at the dawning of a new age. More on my plans in my next report.
Your humble servant,
Dracma
http://www.the-tribulation-network.com/new_tr...

Yeah we get the sarcasm, but why does the Christian god demand you worship him over anyone else (jealousy is one of the 7 deadly sins...so...Christian god is a sinner). How can this being demand you worship it and only it, while providing no proof of existence? I suppose some blindly accept a book a few thousand years old (which is not unlike many other books out there that contradict it about the nature of our spirituality) because they were repeatedly told to by others all their life (brainwashing)?

So before you judge others (another thing preached against by your own standards) for not believing in your unproved theology, you might want to ponder exactly why you believe the way you do.

[TFALLEN]

TheTenSuggestions wrote:

To: Lucifer the Most High and Enlightened One
From: Dracma, Overlord of Babylon
Subject: Designer “gods”
Illustrious Master,

Your humble servant,
Dracma
http://www.the-tribulation-network.com/new_tr...

Yeah we get the sarcasm, but why does the Christian god demand you worship him over anyone else (jealousy is one of the 7 deadly sins...so...Christian god is a sinner). How can this being demand you worship it and only it, while providing no proof of existence? I suppose some blindly accept a book a few thousand years old (which is not unlike many other books out there that contradict it about the nature of our spirituality) because they were repeatedly told to by others all their life (brainwashing)?

So before you judge others (another thing preached against by your own standards) for not believing in your unproved theology, you might want to ponder exactly why you believe the way you do.

[father of 3]

Zachalo wrote:

if we can put the 10 commandments on the courthouse lawn, then why not put the 4 noble truths on the lawn as well... if a christian view or value is put on that lawn, then so should a buddhist's or an hindu or jewish or even muslim views... i think that christianity is a good thing, i believe that the bible is a great idea... there is nothing in that book that will hurt you if you follow it... BUT the people have a right to have their own religion and if the city is going to put a monument in a public place on public land, then how would they react if i put a statue of Buddha right next to that on my own dime? if the answer is anything but "it would be fine" then there shouldnt be any allowance for religious tenants being posted for any faith or religion...

the bibble is swore on in acourt of law and buda did not bless protect and guied this country

[father of 3]

Anubis wrote:

Sorry, but it isn't only the christians and jews being persecuted. Besides, this isn't about other countries, but this one and it's laws. At some point in time, just about every religion has been oppressed and persecuted. I myself have been threatened by christians for not believing what they believe. How christian is that? It seems to be human nature to try to shove ideas down someone else’s throat if that someone disagrees.
Christians can be quite hostile to those who don’t follow their beliefs, particularly in Oklahoma. When I was in High School in Stigler, a Japanese exchange student came to Stigler. The christians wouldn’t leave them alone for being a Buddhist, so much so that they had to leave Stigler. Yes, how christian of them to harass the poor student until they are forced to leave. Forget discussing culture or having meaningful discussions on what the individuals truly think and feel, let’s just try to convert them in the most “in your face” confrontational way.
Being a christian in Oklahoma is easy. No one is trying to beat you down and almost everyone has your back, religiously speaking. Being something else is not.(Even drunken rednecks will defend Christianity, while simultaneously violating several of its rules, like being drunk, using words that definitely aren’t christian and threatening bodily harm.) It’s not because one is more right than the other, just that the christians definitely have more power in the area. I even had to fake being a devout christian for years in Stigler in order to avoid the conflicts (both verbal and physical) with people there. Most people I know in Stigler still don’t know. I knew people who weren’t christians then and life was not made easy for them.

What acroc of cookienuwie!!!! I have lived here 4 over 25 yrs and on both sides of religion and never threated or abused 4 not walking with the LORD. SAtan has your seat warm 4 you. Since he is the father of lies and apparently you 2

[cowboy]

TFALLEN wrote:

<quoted text>
Anubis is right, what planet have you been living on? Do you remember the history lesson of the Inquisition?
I have seen atheists in this day and age being told by Christians they want nothing to do with them. Atheism isn't even a religion and they're getting persecuted.
I am agnostic, because anyone who claims they know the one truth about the spiritual nature of our existence is arrogant and ignorant. You have no proof in the Christian god, just as Wiccans have no proof in the Lord and Lady. I'm sure many Christians would call their pagan ways a sin, simply because they don't follow the beliefs told to them by a Christian church leader. In this day and age one gets persecuted for using logic and reason by thinking for yourself, instead of blindly accepting someone else's interpretation of a book a few thousand years old.
I don't condemn people for worshiping Christian or any other religion. I just despise arrogance, piety, and judgmental behavior based on ignorance.

And you have no proof you have a brain either when was the last time you held in your had and thumed through it