Complaint Filed Against Porterville Cross

A former Porterville resident filed a complaint in Tulare County Superior Court on Monday, about a cross that has stood in a public park for decades.

[Billy Smith]

When he is in hell he will wish he had a cross to bow down to. Billy Smith

[Michael Kincheloe]

Billy Smith wrote:

When he is in hell he will wish he had a cross to bow down to. Billy Smith

Spoken like a typical Porterville resident. How far did you go in school, Billy? Only 33% of Porterville residents are high school graduates, you know.

After I filed my lawsuit in 2007, I ended up dropping it because I lacked standing due to the fact that I live in Visalia, and Murry Park is a city park (not a county park as I had earlier believed, and no way in Hell was I going to move back to pitiful Porterville). How Patrick can have standing while living in Texas is a question that maybe someone else can answer...

[Anon]

The first amendment prohibits a state sanctioned religion similar to the official Church of England.

I fail to see how a cross erected in a city park to honor veterans is endorsing any particular religion in violation of the first amendment any more than a tree in the park is endorsing the druid religion.

Maybe you could sue the City to get rid of the swimming pools as they could be construed to represent baptismal pools.

And of course there is always the cemetery which contains lots of religious symbols to complain about.

Trying to deny peaceful people public symbols honoring their faith and sacrifices seems real ignorant and intolerant.

[Michael Kincheloe]

Anon wrote:

The first amendment prohibits a state sanctioned religion similar to the official Church of England.
I fail to see how a cross erected in a city park to honor veterans is endorsing any particular religion in violation of the first amendment any more than a tree in the park is endorsing the druid religion.
Maybe you could sue the City to get rid of the swimming pools as they could be construed to represent baptismal pools.
And of course there is always the cemetery which contains lots of religious symbols to complain about.
Trying to deny peaceful people public symbols honoring their faith and sacrifices seems real ignorant and intolerant.

I'm sure there are more than a few things that I have the ability to see that you don't.

If you did a wee bit of research, you might see things a little clearer. The Latin cross is a symbol of Protestantism (Crucifix = Catholic).

http://www.seiyaku.com/customs/crosses/latin....

Permitting a display of the Latin cross in Murry Park is an impermissible governmental endorsement of religion; namely, Protestantism.

See how easy that was?

[CJF]

Obviously you lead a very boring life, if all there is to do is file silly lawsuits over a Cross. I am originally from Visalia and for the past 5-years have lived in Porterville.I like it here,so please stay in Visalia.You are wasting Tax Payers Dollars on this frivolous lawsuit. Get a Life!!!!!!!!!!

Michael Kincheloe wrote:

<quoted text>
I'm sure there are more than a few things that I have the ability to see that you don't.
If you did a wee bit of research, you might see things a little clearer. The Latin cross is a symbol of Protestantism (Crucifix = Catholic).
http://www.seiyaku.com/customs/crosses/latin....
Permitting a display of the Latin cross in Murry Park is an impermissible governmental endorsement of religion; namely, Protestantism.
See how easy that was?

[Michael Kincheloe]

CJF wrote:

Obviously you lead a very boring life, if all there is to do is file silly lawsuits over a Cross. I am originally from Visalia and for the past 5-years have lived in Porterville.I like it here,so please stay in Visalia.You are wasting Tax Payers Dollars on this frivolous lawsuit. Get a Life!!!!!!!!!!
<quoted text>

Couldn't handle the breakneck pace here, huh?

Thanks for all of your concern. I'm moving to Fresno next month; Fresno State classes start on August 24.

[CJF]

No Actually I love Visalia, but Porterville is closer to my Husband's work...I have many relatives living in Visalia and lived there most of my 51years....I just DO NOT believe in people such as yourself filing Stupid Law Suits just to please themselves...That Cross is a Historial Monument in Porterville. It will be there many years after your demise....Enjoy Fresno... oh yea...should we close all public pools, because they may or may not be used for a "Baptismal" ???? I THINK NOT...Again "GET A LIFE"

Michael Kincheloe wrote:

<quoted text>
Couldn't handle the breakneck pace here, huh?
Thanks for all of your concern. I'm moving to Fresno next month; Fresno State classes start on August 24.

[Michael Kincheloe]

CJF wrote:

No Actually I love Visalia, but Porterville is closer to my Husband's work...I have many relatives living in Visalia and lived there most of my 51years....I just DO NOT believe in people such as yourself filing Stupid Law Suits just to please themselves...That Cross is a Historial Monument in Porterville. It will be there many years after your demise....Enjoy Fresno... oh yea...should we close all public pools, because they may or may not be used for a "Baptismal" ???? I THINK NOT...Again "GET A LIFE"
<quoted text>

Public pools do not promote a specific religion. A Latin Cross promotes Protestantism, and - historical monument or not - is in violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.

Your speculation concerning swimming pools is silly, but, then again, anyone who believes in a supreme being isn't going to be the sharpest knife in the drawer, are they?

Get a brain.

[CJF]

I am an Agnostic.....STOP assuming things about people and insulting them just for thier opinion.I choose to state my opinions just as you do, but the difference is::: I do not purposely insult others as you do to make yourself feel superior. I do not worship anyone except my parents who lovingly brought myself and my siblings into this world. You, in my opinion only, must be a bitter disappointment to many. Yes, you do have a brain, as I do. But it is such a waste the way you choose to use yours.

Michael Kincheloe wrote:

<quoted text>
Public pools do not promote a specific religion. A Latin Cross promotes Protestantism, and - historical monument or not - is in violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.
Your speculation concerning swimming pools is silly, but, then again, anyone who believes in a supreme being isn't going to be the sharpest knife in the drawer, are they?
Get a brain.

[Michael Kincheloe]

CJF wrote:

I am an Agnostic.....STOP assuming things about people and insulting them just for thier opinion.I choose to state my opinions just as you do, but the difference is::: I do not purposely insult others as you do to make yourself feel superior. I do not worship anyone except my parents who lovingly brought myself and my siblings into this world. You, in my opinion only, must be a bitter disappointment to many. Yes, you do have a brain, as I do. But it is such a waste the way you choose to use yours.
<quoted text>

You're the one who told me to get a life; don't get mad at me just because my responses hit harder than yours do.

[wanderer]

MIchael Kincheloe,
Your article that you cited above reaffirms that it is merely a symbol. You are in no way more intelligent nor logical, nor rational, than someone who has faith. Faith comes not only through religion, but faith that we evolved is necessary to believe in evolution. You are simply a blow hard looking to incite responses as you have done well. Congratulations. Okay now if you believe in nothing, then so be it erect a monument to nothing.:)
I am sorry to say that although you cite legal precedent, so to exists customary law in which customs of a people sometimes overrides the written law. What would you propose we do with money? "In God We Trust."
So your rationale for leaving Porterville or refusing to be a citizen of Porterville is that only 33% of the people are high school graduates. Were you one of them? Your knowledge is based on the research and findings of man. What a wonderful thing to believe in man, need I say more. Here's some truth for you; this is a republic governed by the majority: one of those things the people of reason thought up. Well the majority of people in the U.S.; yes Porterville too believe in an almighty creator and savior. In this community the majority happen to believe in Christ and it would be my guess that the veteran's that the cross is dedicated to were Christians.
Oh and the truth is not painful, it's only painful if you misinterpret what seems to be true.

[Michael Kincheloe]

This is like taking candy from a baby.

"In God We Trust" does not violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment because it does not promote any one religion over another. Christians believe that Jesus was God in human form; Jews do not, but both believe in "God." Muslims also believe in "God," whom they refer to as "Allah." Wiccans worship the "creator of the universe," as do many other religions. The Latin Cross does not promote "God"; it promotes Protestantism. Catholics use a crucifix, Jews, the Star of David, Muslims, the crescent, and Wiccans use a five-pointed star. The Latin Cross promotes Protestantism, and therefore is in violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment if displayed unaccompanied by alternative religious symbols on, or surrounded by, government land.

Customary law sometimes overrides written law? Not in this country, or in this state. Look up f-e-d-e-r-a-l-i-s-m, and McCulloch v. Maryland.

The one majority that is paramount over all others in this country is the U.S. Supreme Court, which interprets the U.S. Constitution. The first ten amendments to the Constitution are called the Bill of Rights, and the sole reason the Bill of Rights were drafted was to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority, i.e., people like you. If a majority of U.S. citizens was the deciding factor in government policy, then whoever got the majority of the popular vote in a presidential election would win. Doesn't work that way. Look up e-l-e-c-t-o-r-a-l c-o-l-l-e-g-e.

"Your knowledge is based on the research and findings of man." So is yours. The men who wrote the Bible claim they were inspired by God, but when all is said and done, all you have to go by is their word. Your beliefs are based on the claims of man.

"You are in no way more intelligent nor logical, nor rational, than someone who has faith." I most certainly am. I use my brain; anyone who believes in a supreme being has taken their brain out and placed it on the shelf - figuratively speaking - and is allowing a simple emotion (belief in "God") to make their decisions.

I will admit that, at times, the cross is more than a symbol. It is also a crutch for those who lack the ability to look life in the eye and deal with it like adults. They band together in a group and tell each other that a collection of Hebraic and Christian mythology makes their lives worthwhile. Many go out and try to foist this nonsense on others, hoping that said others are just as ignorant as they are.

Time to feed the cat. Have a nice evening.

[wanderer]

You are missing my point, you are simply stating that federal jurisdiction supercedes all and puts all decision making into the hands of the supreme court. Your attack on me is unwarranted because I was not promoting God nor was I stating that people like you are more or less intelligent than the other. Faith has nothing to do with a religion per se. Faith is what we have even in the most rational of circumstances; it's what scientists have when they create their hypothesis, except, there faith is in there instrumentation, themselves and colleagues.

I see now that your whole issue resides in the idea that the cross endorses protestantism etc...

Okay well here's the deal. This nation has a culture of letting states, counties, and cities govern themselves. This is (Porterville), as you stated, not an area where you have a voice. I apparently did not convey that.

The deal is this is Porterville, regardless of the overall graduation rate. In Porterville, if this is not an issue; then there is no issue. Porterville is no tyranny. To state that religion is tyrannical is to grand an assumption. If you were to watch how people live and what they profess to be, they are not exclusively one or the other.

There is too much information for anyone to be tyrannical.

The Bill of Rights and our law is based on the equality of man before God.

What is the bottom line? How does this cross cause you so much discomfort? For you to say that people of faith are ignorant assumes that they do not know any better. Some people choose faith, as you stated, to make their lives worthwhile. What then does make life worthwhile. Is it this type of thing?

By the way, except for the scathing attacks, you do well in your citations and arguments. Thanks for the banter.

[Charlie]

GET A JOB!!!!!!!!!! YOU HAVE TO MUCH TIME TO YOURSELF!! WHAT A D-----BAAGGGG

[Rebecca Gervasi]

Michael Kincheloe wrote:

<quoted text>
Public pools do not promote a specific religion. A Latin Cross promotes Protestantism, and - historical monument or not - is in violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.
Your speculation concerning swimming pools is silly, but, then again, anyone who believes in a supreme being isn't going to be the sharpest knife in the drawer, are they?
Get a brain.

Every post you have replied to you have insulted others as stupid or lacking in some way. You further attempt to make yourself as as being superior to other readers in the community. Your actions are nacississtic, callous and you have delusions of granduer. Seek professional help FROM GOD!

[Evan]

One of your points of argument is that "anyone who believes in a supreme being has taken their brain out and placed it on the shelf." Sir, please tell that to the millions of people smarter than yourself who have actually acheived something in their lives. People who changed the world for the better and made a difference through their faith. Scientists, politicians, martyrs, etc. When your life is said and done what will you have acheived? destroying a symbol of hope and successfully taking care of a cat? way to go.