I've given plenty of examples in my past posts found within this topic. I've told you that already--a couple times, I think. If you aren't willing to find them and read them, then so be it. You really haven't the first clue as to the history of crucifixion. You should research it--as well as Biblical history on the deaths of the apostles. And to question the existence of Jesus is to spit in the face of many great and reputible historians. The Shroud of Turin cannot be replicated--even today. You really do need to research this amazing relic and apply common sense before arriving at a conclusion concerning its authenticity. I've supplied you, I believe, with enough material to convince you of the truth. If you choose not to believe, then don't. I'm not twisting anyone's arm here. Just don't expect that demanding information that I've already supplied and asking questions that I've already answered will elicit future responses from me. I like to deal in specifics. Get specific, and if I haven't already covered it, I will.Ok. Read this slowly:
Nothing you have said
You again talk of biblical prophesies that have been fulfilled. You still do not offer any examples. You tell me some dude wrote a book about it. Ok fine. When presenting an argument you need to back up your argument with examples. A lawyer can't assert that he has evidence and witnesses to prove his client is innocent, then refuse to produce said evidence.
Also on that note, you do realize that saying, " all of them have come true except the ones that are for the future," is the same as saying "All of them have come true except the ones that haven't." It's the same thing.
Back to this shroud of Turin stuff. Even if all of those things are true, that still does not PROVE that it was Jesus' shoroud. I'd be willing to bet that method of crucifixion became popular in the years after Jesus had his. The obsessed followers, seeking martyrdom and sainthood, would have probably had one per week. There is no way to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was the shroud of Jesus. That's always assuming he existed at all.
So give me some examples. Specific examples with bible reference.
#129 Apr 11, 2013
#130 Apr 11, 2013
There are no contemporary accounts of Jesus.
None of the gospels were written during his life and none are first hand accounts.
You'd think a plague curing, death curing, miracle worker would garner some attention from the Romans or Jews, some of whom were pretty good note takers. Sadly, this isn't the case. Pliny didn't write about him, neither did Seneca the greater or Seneca the lesser, nor Philo. Not even Josephus, even though he was a keen historian of Judaism. Of course, in Josephus case, the church later 'supplied' his works with a couple very brief mentions. There are plenty more contemporaries of the time who made no note of Jesus or his 'works'.
Perhaps he actually existed, but all the mumbo-jumbo Son of God stuff was later applied.
To say there is certainty of his existence and miracles is to spit in the face of common sense.
But continue to cling to a bloody rag, I'm not twisting any arms.
So glad topix is back on the fun train!
#131 Apr 11, 2013
You're incredibly wrong once again. First of all, Pliny did, in fact, write of Him in "Letters 10:96". There are many others who wrote about Jesus: Julius Africanus quotes the historian Thallus in a discussion of the darkness which followed the crucifixion of Christ (Extant Writings, 18). The Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) confirms Jesus' crucifixion on the eve of Passover and the accusations against Christ of practicing sorcery and encouraging Jewish apostasy. Lucian of Samosata a second-century Greek writer, penned information about Jesus and his crucifixion, his followers, etc. Mara Bar-Serapion confirms that Jesus was thought to be a wise and virtuous man, was considered by many to be the king of Israel, was put to death by the Jews, and lived on in the teachings of His followers. Nero wrote of Jesus and even tried to blame the fire which destroyed Rome in A.D.64 on Christ's followers. Another writer who mentioned Him is Tacitus. These are just a few examples. It's amazing that you dismiss Joshepus with an outright falsehood.
To say there is certainty of His existence and miracles is to agree with historical fact.
#132 Apr 11, 2013
Your bible is wrong in so many ways. It talks of a flood, they have found scientific evidence in the area of where Noah was but it was not that big and it was before his time. Christians need to do better research Horus was almost the same story as jesus, and it was written by the egyptians 2000 yrs before jesus. How do you know that Hinduism is not the right religion it IS the oldest living religion in the world. Thousands of yrs older than christianity. If you say you don't belive in magic, YOU LIE, if you say you don't belive in ghosts, LIE, I really want to know why Isreal are god's chosen people, but they do not believe in jesus, So that means that they are going to hell right, what about the people in the world who have not heard of jesus. I guess they are just screwed huh. Christianity has killed more innocent people than any war. The crusades, salem witch hunts, the cleansings in England and Europe. Arrogance is all that it is. Yes god loves you so much that if you don't love him back you get to burn in hell. Where is god when the innocents are harmed. Christians make me sick. Ignorant, self centered, so absorbed in a fairy tale that they dedicate their lives to it instead of living. MORONS.
#133 Apr 11, 2013
The Master, you are definately an educated idiot, you are going to believe the writings of Nero, who history has proven to be INSANE. Also you are going to quote greek writers, they wrote of all the roman and greek gods, so that makes jesus special how? You need to read more history than the history according to christianity. Then you will understand.
#134 Apr 11, 2013
I should hope I don't have to give the definition of contemporary. Look it up if you need to.
#135 Apr 12, 2013
You're incredibly wrong about the flood being local. There is a plethora of evidence that it was world-wide. Do the research. If you're really serious about Horus being the model for Christ, then you have done no real research. All the claims of Horus having 12 apostles, being crucified, rising three days later appear to come from Tom Harpur's 2005 book, which cites Gerald Massey's 1907 writings. BTW Massey's work is not considered serious or relevant by scholars. As for the crucifixion and resurrection, the party involved wasnt Horus but Osiris, as per the above. Except Osiris wasnt crucified Seth initially had him nailed into a coffin. And he wasnt really resurrected, just revived long enough to be a sperm donor, after which he died again. Now that that nonsense has been taken care of, ask yourself, how and why would Rome and Jesus and his followers attempt to copy the story of Horus (even though the story does not resemble the story of Christ)? First of all, they must have gotten it wrong if they actually attempted such a thing. Secondly, it's ridiculous to even consider such an idea coming into play. Come on, man. Don't let fools such as Bill Maher do your thinking for you. As for Christianity causing the Salem witch hunts, the Crusades, the wars, etc.--nope, sorry. Just because groups of men do bad things in the name of Christianity, makes their actions neither right nor approved by God almighty. As for people believing in other religions being doomed and the reality of an eternal hell--well, I do not know all the answers; I do know that I serve a just God. I will continue to trust Him and His word.
#136 Apr 12, 2013
10 Reasons Not to Believe the Bible
A contradiction is what happens when two or more statements are incompatible. The Bible is full of such contradictions and they begin in the opening chapters of Genesis where we find two creation stories that contradict each other on the order of the alleged creation as well as the way things were created.
A doublet, in biblical terms, is the repetition of story lines wherein the characters or emphasis is different. Examples of these doublets include the two creation stories, the two set of commandments (and possibly a third), the three patriarchs prostituting their wives out and the census of the Israelites under David. In fact, I dont think there is one story in the Bible that does not have a different version. Such things call into question the authenticity of these stories as well as their origins.
A penchant for exaggeration:
The bible simply cannot simply tell a story. It exaggerates to the point of being absurd. For example, it describes a flood that is so great in magnitude that the highest land-based mountains are subjmerged. While there is evidence that flooding occured in the area, there is absolutely no evidence for a flood of this size.
The Biblical World:
The bible describes an earth that is a dome covered flat and stationary island-like surface that is the center of the universe in which it is magically suspended. This is flatly false. The earth is a slightly oval shaped planet that rotates on its axis with an orbiting satellite we call the moon. The earth also orbits the sun which is the center of our galaxy with eight other such objects and their respective satellites. Our galaxy is but one of many in the universe and like the others it is in continuous motion.
The bible is completely at odds with practically every branch of science. It states that humans and other animals were created as is. Evolutionary biology has the evidence that says we and the other animals evolved over the course of millions of years. The Bible states that the earth is thousands of years old. Various branches of the physical sciences (astronomy and geology for example) have the evidence that the earth is billions of years old and that the universe itself is even older that it. Archaeology and anthropology undermine the uniqueness and factualness of the Bible stories (ie, the flood of Noah is older than the biblical account, the collapsed wall of Jericho predates the biblical story).
#137 Apr 12, 2013
The Bible is also at odds with the actual history of its times and often tells stories upon which there is no evidence to support. The greatest of these is the alleged exodus out of Egypt. It didnt happen. The same applies to the story of Esther. It routinely gets the history of surrounding civilizations wrong such as crediting a Darius the Mede with the taking of Babylon when it was Cyrus of Persia.
The Bible is full of cruelty in some form or another. From the execution of rape victims to the genocidal slaughter of non-Israelites, there isnt much in abject violence that is not condoned, even demanded, by the the biblical authors. Of all the ethical problems with the Bible, it is Christianity itself that points out the biggest injustice which is the damning of our entire species due to the specific acts of two individuals.
No rational group or individual concerned with justice punishes the innocent for the crimes (real or imagined) of the guilty. The biblical god consitently breaks this simple idea and routinely punishes the innocent for the alleged sins of others to such a degree that an entire religion has been built up around the idea of punishing the innocent in place of the guilty.
No one knows who wrote the bulk of the texts that make up the Bible and most of the names weve been given are from tradition. This applies to both the Old Testament and the New Testament. We also do not know when they written and can only make best guesses regarding their origins. I read once (and agree) that if you get five biblical scholars in a room, youll get seven different opinions on biblical authorship. For every Moses didnt write this is a of course, not Aaron did and a youre both wrong, Jacob did and of course no, all three of you are wrong. Moses wrote it. And round and round we go.
The bible promotes a view that is completely at odds with how we understand the universe and all things in it. Polite people call that view supernatural in origin. I call it plain ole magic. Magic in the bible includes a talking snake, a talking donkey, a tree that makes you smart, a tree that makes you immune to death, food falling from the skies, rods turning into snakes, water being turned into blood, water coming out of a rock, people rising from the dead, the sun standing still, witches resurrecting the dead, non-corporeal finger writing on walls, people taking three day rides in the stomach of a whale, virgins giving birth and countless angels and demons inserting themselves into the affairs here on earth. Accordingly, this view promotes the idea that reality can be suspended at any moment without warning and makes dealing with said reality near impossible.
The Bible is not unique in claiming to be the word of a god and is in fact just one of many such works. Other such works include (but not limited to):
Egyptian Book of the Dead (spells & rules concerning the afterlife for ancient Egyptians)
Bhagavad Gitas (Hindu)
Adi Granth (Sikhism)
Tripitaka (Pali, Chinese & Tibetan Buddhism)
Tao Te Ching (Buddhism)
Book of Mormon (Christianity: Latter Day Saints)
#138 Apr 12, 2013
The Bible itself can be found in various versions with Jews having their version, Catholics having theirs and Protestants having yet another. There are dozens, if not more, different translations in English alone with various specialized versions for (amongst others) women, children and people of colour (cannot find an online source, but it is called the Afro Bible IIRC).
There are other reasons also such as the often bizarre, dangerous and violent behaviour of bible-believers against themselves as well as others. Bible verses are routinely used as reasons for assaulting children, withholding medical care, physical mutilation, xenophobic tendencies, denial of pleasure and many other things.
In conclusion, the Bible has played a dreadful role in our history. It is full of errors, contradictions and absurdities. The problems we have overcome have been in spite of, not because of the Bible. It has been through the application of reason and science that we have overcome the things it has condoned, even demanded. Pretending otherwise is plain silly. of the bible.
#139 Apr 12, 2013
If you do not understand how to read the Bible it will sound contradictory. I will not argue belief or nonbelief. I am a believer. I am just simply stating that if you don't understand it, maybe you should just leave it alone.
#140 Apr 12, 2013
Are you kidding me. That's your answer ?
#141 Apr 12, 2013
Please, do not condescend to we the non-believers. We understand your superstitions. Your comment does not help and only validates what most of us think of the religious, they are rude and close minded.
At least when The Master is rude he has an argument (however feeble) to go with his snide comments.
#142 Apr 12, 2013
This is boring. Neither side is gonna change the other sides mind on topix. The fact is faith doesn't have to be rational, live & let live. Quit attackIng each others beliefs, it serves no real purpose.
#143 Apr 13, 2013
Oh, my. So you're rebuttal is to copy and paste an article? I thought as much when you resorted to calling people who don't agree with you "stupid" and "morons". No reall ammunition from you. I've already answered these and many other allegations that you--uh ... I mean someone thought up. And to be quite frank, nothing I've written on here makes any difference to people such as you and "Ned". So, go ahead and live in the dark. I'm done casting pearls before swine.
#144 Apr 13, 2013
Says the man who copy and pastes articles...
#145 Apr 13, 2013
Ned, I agree with your first 2 sentences completely. But that's not really that much of a hang up because the gospels do contain historical information that we can glean using the Historical Critical Method. It's the next paragraph that I would like to address. "You'd think a plague curing, death curing, miracle worker would garner some attention from the Romans or Jews, some of whom were pretty good note takers." What if he didn't do any of those things? I could press the issue further by saying what do miracles have to do with someone actually existing? The earliest writings we have come from Paul, as you know. Paul says a couple things about Jesus that are very compelling. The first is what Paul knew about Jesus. He tells us in 1st Corinthians that "I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and him crucified.(2:2) Or later on in that same epistle; For I delivered over to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with scriptures, and that he was buried.(15:3-4) Jesus was not only crucified, he was also buried. For Paul, Jesus lived a very real existence, was taken by the Roman authorities, put on trial, crucified and then buried. A very human death. The second thing about Paul is what he tells us about who he knew. He knew Jesus' closest disciple Cephas (Peter) and Jesus' flesh and blood brother James. If you want to talk about a historical Jesus, I couldn't think of 2 better people to know. I wish I knew them. I'm really glad that you entertain the notion of him actually existing (remember, history doesn't deal with certainty, only probability). And actually, him being the son of God is one of the oldest traditions about Jesus. The question is WHEN did he become the son of God? Well, it appears that the oldest traditions indicate he became the son of God when he was raised from the dead. Sometime later, his divinity got pushed back to when he was baptized by John the Baptist, then later still, it was pushed back to when he was born, and finally when we get to John's gospel, it had been pushed back to the beginning of time. The FUN TRAIN IS A ROLLIN!!!! lolololol
#146 Apr 13, 2013
You also have to remember jesus was kind of a dick. He didn't start his whole "I am the son of god" thing till he was thirty. That means at the age of 29 he was walking past a leper and thinking "not just yet".
Also, who found the tomb to be empty and what state was the tomb in?
Since: Apr 13
#147 Apr 13, 2013
I do not think that God is "fake" as you say. A relevant example may be best used here. Let's say that a child doesn't know their father...is the father non-existent?
I suppose that with God not being on Earth in the flesh, we have lost our understanding of what God is.
Perhaps we shall soon know the details...
#148 Apr 13, 2013
Says the man who [copies] and pastes articles. But seriously folks, getting resources from other web sites (even the faith-based ones that you don't want to have to deal with) is fine--as long as you use them to back up your argument--not MAKE your argument. And his came out of the blue, answering nothing, meaning nothing. Wake up.
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