Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

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Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.
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“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#72469
Apr 26, 2014
 
former res wrote:
Although Ellison was raised in a Reform Jewish home by his adoptive parents, who attended synagogue regularly, he remained a religious skeptic. Ellison states: "While I think I am religious in one sense, the particular dogmas of Judaism are not dogmas I subscribe to. I don't believe that they are real. They're interesting stories. They're interesting mythology, and I certainly respect people who believe these are literally true, but I don't. I see no evidence for this stuff." At age thirteen, Ellison refused to have a bar mitzvah celebration.[8]
Larry Ellison
CEO and Cofounder of Oracle
Worth $48 billion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Ellison
Wasnt Oracle the contractor responsible for the debacle of the Oregan health exchange?

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#72470
Apr 27, 2014
 
susanblange wrote:
<quoted text>Do you mean Newspeak? Or have you just immersed yourself in the scriptures?
April is almost done and nothing really bad has happened.
former res

Cheshire, CT

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#72471
Apr 27, 2014
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually, I admit dont know the nature of the god you don't believe in...the statement was intended to poke fun at the harder core atheists, to highlight that everyone has their own unique concept before they disbelieve in it...
Of before they do believe in it.

Doesn't everyone have their own unique idea of just about everything?

Rationalization is a powerful thing.
former res

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#72472
Apr 27, 2014
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Its only moving goal posts if I am trying to defend a viewpoint. I am not. I am presenting a view point. I am not claiming that my viewpoint is the real way (ie. the correct way) to understand god. I am presenting it as the way I understand god. So it isnt my problem how others might label themselves or others, and as I mentioned a few times, the label paradigm you are using is not very descriptive either.
You are not claiming to know, I realize this, as you're an agnostic version of whatever it is you are, I would say a theist, you would say something else.

But regardless of the nomenclature/semantics, it still seems you've broadened the definition of god SO much as to include anything and everything.

If it all fits together and works for you, so be it.
former res

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#72473
Apr 27, 2014
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Again, your bias is showing. You are determined to make this a trial where the validity of my beliefs are under examination. Rather than realizing that all I am doing is articulating them.
Part of the problem is that you are hung up on the framework of Western Philosophy and Christianity, if you would spend anytime learning about the issue from Eastern spirituality or nonChristian perspectives, you would see that there are entire descriptive vocabularies out there that move past classic theism.
Of course we all have bias. To deny it would be disingenuous.

But my point was that we can put ourselves though so many mental gymnastics that it would be possible to convince ourselves that up is down and night is day. Nuance can be taken too far. At one point one has to shxt or get off the pot/the fence. Something at one level is one thing or it's another. And we can also end up old men sitting in a smoke-filled room uttering our muddled philosophy. But in the end, as Robert De Nero said in The Deer Hunter, "This is this."

Not there isn't room for nuance, wonder and questions. For me, abortion, affirmative action, even the death penalty (at times), welfare etc. Not all cut and dried. And of course the grand daddy of them all, religion.

But at some point someone says they believe in god of they don't. Or they say, sometimes or most of the time. I understand. "There are no atheists in foxholes" goes the expression. I hope I end up like Christopher Hitchens who said if you hear of him making a deathbed conversion, don't believe it.

But bottom line. I think a believer should likewise take a stand. But also as noted, actions speak louder than words, and so have they done for you.
former res

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#72474
Apr 27, 2014
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Wasnt Oracle the contractor responsible for the debacle of the Oregan health exchange?
Don't know.

Maybe the company has been a big flop and the guy's a loser?

:)

Actually I hear they are pointing fingers at each other out in Oregon.

I don't really know the details.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#72475
Apr 27, 2014
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Of before they do believe in it.
Doesn't everyone have their own unique idea of just about everything?
Rationalization is a powerful thing.
True, but the idea is that the harder core of the atheists are first presupposing something, and then disbelieving it. The statement that I dont believe in the same god you dont believe in, is, in part, trying to highlight that irony.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#72476
Apr 27, 2014
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
You are not claiming to know, I realize this, as you're an agnostic version of whatever it is you are, I would say a theist, you would say something else.
But regardless of the nomenclature/semantics, it still seems you've broadened the definition of god SO much as to include anything and everything.
If it all fits together and works for you, so be it.
But if we all agree that all I am doing is articulating how I experience my reality, why does it matter to anyone else WHAT or HOW I label. Are you saying that only you have the right to provide the label for my pink elephant?

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#72477
Apr 27, 2014
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Don't know.
Maybe the company has been a big flop and the guy's a loser?
:)
Actually I hear they are pointing fingers at each other out in Oregon.
I don't really know the details.
On the other hand, CT did so well they are consulting out their expertise.

sorry to poke fun at your quote - couldnt resist...
former res

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#72478
Apr 27, 2014
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Wasnt Oracle the contractor responsible for the debacle of the Oregan health exchange?
...besides we all know gov't can't do anything right anyway, so it's probably the state's fault!

:)

Just ask our friend, ATF.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#72479
Apr 27, 2014
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Of course we all have bias. To deny it would be disingenuous.
But my point was that we can put ourselves though so many mental gymnastics that it would be possible to convince ourselves that up is down and night is day. Nuance can be taken too far. At one point one has to shxt or get off the pot/the fence. Something at one level is one thing or it's another. And we can also end up old men sitting in a smoke-filled room uttering our muddled philosophy. But in the end, as Robert De Nero said in The Deer Hunter, "This is this."
Not there isn't room for nuance, wonder and questions. For me, abortion, affirmative action, even the death penalty (at times), welfare etc. Not all cut and dried. And of course the grand daddy of them all, religion.
I take a more liberal view of things. I acknowledge that there are more than one god concepts out there, and have no qualms with that. I also share the visceral reaction and uncomfortableness many Jews and others feel when some fundamentalist Christian hijacks the god talk, and for that reason as well promote multiple god concepts.
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
But at some point someone says they believe in god of they don't. Or they say, sometimes or most of the time. I understand. "There are no atheists in foxholes" goes the expression. I hope I end up like Christopher Hitchens who said if you hear of him making a deathbed conversion, don't believe it.
But bottom line. I think a believer should likewise take a stand. But also as noted, actions speak louder than words, and so have they done for you.
True, but the conversation has morphed (which is ok, but I wanted to note this). Originally you posed the question what is the boundary of belief for a Jew (to not get kicked out). And the answer would be, regarding these last posts, is a belief in the "one" of a god concept of some sort. But the god concept itself is rather permeable. All of the subsequent talk about what theism is or isnt, etc etc, is a tangent IMO.(But that said, I still think you are viewing all of this from the wrong vantagepoint, as you are using categories of analysis that are meaningful from the perspective western philosophy but not so meaningful to understanding from the perspective of the religion itself).
former res

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#72480
Apr 27, 2014
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
True, but the idea is that the harder core of the atheists are first presupposing something, and then disbelieving it. The statement that I dont believe in the same god you dont believe in, is, in part, trying to highlight that irony.
So if I hear you right, you're saying the hardcore atheists are saying, "I know exactly what god you believe in and I categorically do NOT believe in that same god!"

In that case I would think your response might be, "You have no idea what god I believe in." As mine was to you.(not to tell you your business, or take the fun out of it..) Regardless.

I doubt most atheists take that position, as you say the hardcore. I think most atheists and most theists take that middle of the road "I don't know position" but choose to believe (or act as though they do) or not as they see fit.
former res

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#72481
Apr 27, 2014
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
But if we all agree that all I am doing is articulating how I experience my reality, why does it matter to anyone else WHAT or HOW I label. Are you saying that only you have the right to provide the label for my pink elephant?
Hell no.

That's why I said if it works for you, have at it.

Live and let live, I always say.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#72482
Apr 27, 2014
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
So if I hear you right, you're saying the hardcore atheists are saying, "I know exactly what god you believe in and I categorically do NOT believe in that same god!"
In that case I would think your response might be, "You have no idea what god I believe in." As mine was to you.(not to tell you your business, or take the fun out of it..) Regardless.
I doubt most atheists take that position, as you say the hardcore. I think most atheists and most theists take that middle of the road "I don't know position" but choose to believe (or act as though they do) or not as they see fit.
Literally, it is "you are rejecting the god that you think I believe in, but I dont think of god that way either" with the implied snark that you got it all wrong, why are you wasting your time on a straw argument?.

I admit its a tortured use of language. But the saying has been around a long time, as long as the atheist critique.
former res

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#72483
Apr 27, 2014
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
On the other hand, CT did so well they are consulting out their expertise.
sorry to poke fun at your quote - couldnt resist...
Did you happen to go on the CT site just to see how much $$$ you would pay?

I think for us the silver plan was in the $11-1200/month range. Around what we were paying for COBRA benefits last year, based on what the spouse had at previous employer in PA -good coverage but oy vey!
former res

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#72484
Apr 27, 2014
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I take a more liberal view of things. I acknowledge that there are more than one god concepts out there, and have no qualms with that. I also share the visceral reaction and uncomfortableness many Jews and others feel when some fundamentalist Christian hijacks the god talk, and for that reason as well promote multiple god concepts.
ok, fair enough.

Many believers take the position that, though people across the world worship differently, that we area all in fact worshiping and praying to the same god. After all, if one is monotheist, there is only one god. So it kind of makes sense.

To me that seems like a tolerant and open minded approach. And it openly allows for differences. As you know one of my pet peeves is believers stating their belief is the correct one and others are all doing it wrong. This is what my born again brother says all the time. "They're doing it wrong!" And he usually means other Christians.
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
True, but the conversation has morphed (which is ok, but I wanted to note this). Originally you posed the question what is the boundary of belief for a Jew (to not get kicked out). And the answer would be, regarding these last posts, is a belief in the "one" of a god concept of some sort. But the god concept itself is rather permeable. All of the subsequent talk about what theism is or isnt, etc etc, is a tangent IMO.(But that said, I still think you are viewing all of this from the wrong vantagepoint, as you are using categories of analysis that are meaningful from the perspective western philosophy but not so meaningful to understanding from the perspective of the religion itself).
I think I asked something to the effect, how little of the scripture and tradition etc can a Jew believe in and still call himself a Jew, in the religious sense? Something like that.

Then I did get into what makes a theist, stating that I thought you were a theist.

I view this subject from my perspective, admittedly not one steeped in religious tradition. But I believe the religions we each grew up with started in roughly the same place, no?

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#72485
Apr 27, 2014
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Did you happen to go on the CT site just to see how much $$$ you would pay?
I think for us the silver plan was in the $11-1200/month range. Around what we were paying for COBRA benefits last year, based on what the spouse had at previous employer in PA -good coverage but oy vey!
Havent since the inception and it didnt strike me as a huge amount - but I dont recollect what the deductible is. Right now I am on my spouses plan which has reasonable monthly charge but totally unreasonable deductable. So the devil is always in the details

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#72486
Apr 27, 2014
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
I think I asked something to the effect, how little of the scripture and tradition etc can a Jew believe in and still call himself a Jew, in the religious sense? Something like that.
Then I did get into what makes a theist, stating that I thought you were a theist.
I view this subject from my perspective, admittedly not one steeped in religious tradition. But I believe the religions we each grew up with started in roughly the same place, no?
I think in the US at least, there are large numbers of Jews who dont believe much about scripture, but follow some of the "commandments" as tradition. They see themselves as Jewish, and I would consider them Jewish. However, without some type of faith component, I doubt their lifestyles (traditions and all) will continue to transmit through future generations.

But then again, there is the example of the Moranos and other crypto-Jews....http://en.wikip edia.org/wiki/Crypto-Judaism

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#72487
Apr 27, 2014
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Did you happen to go on the CT site just to see how much $$$ you would pay?
I think for us the silver plan was in the $11-1200/month range. Around what we were paying for COBRA benefits last year, based on what the spouse had at previous employer in PA -good coverage but oy vey!
Yeah, I got probably similar results to you for Silver - the deductible is slightly lower than what I am paying, but the premiums are considerable higher - over all more expensive
oneworld

Den Helder, Netherlands

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#72488
Apr 28, 2014
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
ok, fair enough.
Many believers take the position that, though people across the world worship differently, that we area all in fact worshiping and praying to the same god. After all, if one is monotheist, there is only one god. So it kind of makes sense.
To me that seems like a tolerant and open minded approach. And it openly allows for differences. As you know one of my pet peeves is believers stating their belief is the correct one and others are all doing it wrong. This is what my born again brother says all the time. "They're doing it wrong!" And he usually means other Christians.
<quoted text>
I think I asked something to the effect, how little of the scripture and tradition etc can a Jew believe in and still call himself a Jew, in the religious sense? Something like that.
Then I did get into what makes a theist, stating that I thought you were a theist.
I view this subject from my perspective, admittedly not one steeped in religious tradition. But I believe the religions we each grew up with started in roughly the same place, no?
Just butting in here Former.

It seems christianity they did not start in roughly the same place.

It seems the big part concerning the main concepts employed arose from discussions on the nature of the world, humans and gods presented in a meta-physical form.
The other contributing factor has been antagonism between judaism and the greek world.
Most arguements of this kind came from Alexandria.
A mix of myth and fact ending up in the gospel text.

The eventual form was created in Europe and Turkey itself from ideas about the territory.
Which might explain why the Aramaic version differs first in content and later interpretation given the former closeness and contact.
The religion and content of the bible can be said to have derived from the 11th and 12 the century so after the crusades and from polemics in the 15 and 16th century.(Suddeny all manner of copies of biblical texts and statues were found, myths of f.i. Helena and Constantin invented.)

We find that Europeans tried to literally out-fit various places to reflect their evolved ideas.
Comparable the Harry potter and platform 9 3/4 now having a shield pointing to it for all those fans asking where it was to be found.

Also:The church use of the title dr. of philosophy, in which philosophy is to be understood as ' that which is not real, not found in reality'.'that which relies on imagination and is never confirmed by actual fact.'

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