Messianic Jews say they are persecute...

Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

There are 72033 comments on the Newsday story from Jun 21, 2008, titled Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel. In it, Newsday reports that:

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Newsday.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#71579 Apr 14, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Always wanting to nip things off!
:))
If you like parallels though, I see one there - not perfect of course.
So only fight your own battles, hmmmmm. Doesn't sound very noble. I believe strongly in gay rights but am not gay (despite what Joel and Huggy say).(BTW, I'm also against slavery!)

But the snake folks have a religious practice (no doubt near and dear to their hearts) which isn't really hurting the snakes but some of the PETA types really can go a little too far....and you wouldn't go bullshxt on the snake activists??(As they are attempting to enact the law...)
Speaking of the law, I usually don't stop for stop signs in parking lots (if no other traffic). Someone told me they aren't really enforceable on private property. Regardless, don't care.
One has to expend energy promoting gay rights so that a segment of the populations is allowed to lawfully experience the same opportunities as the rest of us. I dont see the parallel with circumcision. I dont get what rights, in the absence of medical impacts, that the newborn are being deprived on. I dont buy the cosmetic/mutilation argument - besides from ear piercing, we kill skin cells and change our natural beauty whenever we apply makeup. I dont buy the consent arguments - we vaccine newborns without their consent, we dress them up without their consent, we have power of attorney as guardians....

There is no reason that I wouldnt go against Peta. I agree with your logic. But one picks their battles, and the best battles to pick are those that affect your home.

Who erected the stop sign? Where does it come from? On the same subject, I was always hazy on the subject of emergency lights on top of vehicles. Not only police and ambulances, but also private tow trucks, and other construction vehicles. Can anyone put a light on their vehicle?

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#71580 Apr 14, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I understand the ritual has religious significance. That's not my question though.
In the past it seems you've been a little more cavalier about the details of the faith, or free-wheeling, liberal - not sure the best way to say it but I think you get my point.
More into the mediation, the cerebral aspects - not so much bound by scripture. More about the "oneness" with nature etc......
But it seems you're more traditional then you let on.
The religion has a peoplehood component. There are core traditions that define the people (and the religion). Without the tradition, there is no people or religion. Brit happens to be one of them, thats all.(knowledge of Hebrew is another one) We all have our lines in the sand.

I never said I wasnt traditional. In fact, I consider myself very traditional. Often I note that the traditional is more expansive and more liberal than one might initially assume with limited education or exposure. And I direct that observation not only to nonJews like you, but Jews that have grown up in sequestered experiences.

Scripture is always at the root of the tradition, of course. But there are layers and layers of tradition regarding their implementation. Its not so simple as literal application. The text references circumcision but provides no details regarding the elaborate ceremony that accompanies it. That came later. Different Jewish movements differ as to the weight and appropriateness of details such as these, but they all agree with the textual source of the tradition.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#71581 Apr 14, 2014
JOEL COOL DUDE wrote:
<quoted text>

Expected, in view of your ordinary intellectual capacities.
You should reflect, in the tradition of Bhudda, why you have this drive to create arrogance by separating yourself and pretending to elevate yourself from everyone else.

What does arrogance get you? Does it make you feel special? At what cost? Why is it so important to you to feel special? Can;t you get this is other ways without demeaning others?

When you demean others, how are you not demeaning yourself?

Much to reflect - consider it a gift from Bhudda

Adam 36

Since: Aug 13

Location hidden

#71582 Apr 14, 2014
JOEL COOL DUDE wrote:
<quoted text>
Buddha did not promote slavery. He was all for universal freedom.
You didn't understand my post.
Expected, in view of your ordinary intellectual capacities.
I explained the difference between co-operation (which implies a sameness of all the participating agencies which is impossible since equality is not an ingrained law of nature) and interaction (which is certainly the case since people of diverse aptitudes can contribute their bit in a harmonious manner to get a work done or to make society functional).
Since, each person is unique in his aptitude thus each person has a rightful place in the societal pyramid and as such it makes no sense for the powerful to forcibly enslave the weaker sections of society - the natural law is "unity in variety" and so in this sense slavery is a perversity.
What to fail to understand or are deliberately being obtuse about is the ability of Buddhists to engage in abhorrent behavior like slavery or violence. If as you say their teachings do not support such values what do you think has propelled them to act in a such a manner?
former res

Cheshire, CT

#71583 Apr 14, 2014
This guy in Kansas sounds like a real sweetheart. Being described as a "white supremacist" so I guess he's an equal opportunity hater.

In 7th grade when they taught us about the KKK, they said the letters also stood for "Kikes, koons and Katholics" (think anti-establishment protestors spelling "Amerika" to show disrespect).

The news says they are still "gathering information" on whether this is hate crime. Bet I know how this one turns out.

Why is it that so many losers want to blame others for their lot in life?
Sucks. The church burnings, the anti-immigration crowd, homophobes and so on. And even the ones who say "makers vs the takers." Blaming the most vulnerable among us.

Peaceful Passover to all. We've already made up the Easter basket to bring up to the in-laws this weekend. Not that any of us are religious. Some good chocolate. Solid Dove bunnies - none of those crappy hollow ones!
KryptonII

Columbus, OH

#71584 Apr 14, 2014
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
Of course, in Saudi Arabia -- you can get the death penalty for "preaching" anything except Islam.
Jews don't preach -- we don't go knocking on people's doors and asking them if who they pray to or how they do it.
Most of us find it offensive and impolite.
Obama hates Israel and America because he's a filthy muslim pig. FINALLY, the world is waking up to the fact we have a terrorist in the White House.
JOEL

India

#71585 Apr 14, 2014
Adam 36 wrote:
<quoted text>

What to fail to understand or are deliberately being obtuse about is the ability of Buddhists to engage in abhorrent behavior like slavery or violence. If as you say their teachings do not support such values what do you think has propelled them to act in a such a manner?
LOL.

Again, your low intelligence has failed you.

To follow the sublime teachings of the Buddha, one has to be some kind of a yogi or at the least one has to be a person of higher sensibilities.

Buddha's teachings are a practice, not a ritual nor an mental assent.

In a previous post of yesterday, I said that Buddhists can violate the teachings of the Buddha given their personality defects and primal passions.

However, I made it clear to you that Buddha did not teach violence, war, slavery, human sacrifice, threats, abuses, curses, animal sacrifice, stoning disobedient sons to death, bashing babies against rocks, raping the women of prisoners of war, genital mutilation that destroys thousands of sensitive nerve endings thereby unbalancing the chakras/brain centers, cannibalism, tribalism, fanaticism, death for apostasy and other evils.
JOEL

India

#71586 Apr 14, 2014
Adam 36 wrote:
<quoted text>

What do you think has propelled them to act in a such a manner?
Personality flaws/animal passions.

To follow the sublime teachings of the Buddha, one has to be some kind of a yogi or at the least one has to be a person of higher sensibilities.

To attain to the Nirvana as taught by the Buddha, one has to be an advanced yogi whose lower nature (based on personality flaws/animal passions) has been transformed or sublimated through intense meditative practices using certain mantras which finally result in the activation of certain higher states of consciousness in the mental, emotional, physical and subconscient nature of a person.

Adam 36

Since: Aug 13

Location hidden

#71588 Apr 14, 2014
JOEL wrote:
<quoted text>
Personality flaws/animal passions.
To follow the sublime teachings of the Buddha, one has to be some kind of a yogi or at the least one has to be a person of higher sensibilities.
To attain to the Nirvana as taught by the Buddha, one has to be an advanced yogi whose lower nature (based on personality flaws/animal passions) has been transformed or sublimated through intense meditative practices using certain mantras which finally result in the activation of certain higher states of consciousness in the mental, emotional, physical and subconscient nature of a person.
So Buddhism is no different than any other belief that has flawed adherents.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#71589 Apr 14, 2014
former res wrote:
This guy in Kansas sounds like a real sweetheart. Being described as a "white supremacist" so I guess he's an equal opportunity hater.
In 7th grade when they taught us about the KKK, they said the letters also stood for "Kikes, koons and Katholics" (think anti-establishment protestors spelling "Amerika" to show disrespect).
The news says they are still "gathering information" on whether this is hate crime. Bet I know how this one turns out.
Why is it that so many losers want to blame others for their lot in life?
Sucks. The church burnings, the anti-immigration crowd, homophobes and so on. And even the ones who say "makers vs the takers." Blaming the most vulnerable among us.
Peaceful Passover to all. We've already made up the Easter basket to bring up to the in-laws this weekend. Not that any of us are religious. Some good chocolate. Solid Dove bunnies - none of those crappy hollow ones!
Yep, the guy hated Jews, but managed to kill 2 Christians (and 1 Jew).

Dove is one of the few (or perhaps the only) mass produced American brands of chocolate that I like.

We already colored our egg (turns out egg coloring is also a sephardic Jewish custom)

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#71590 Apr 14, 2014
Adam 36 wrote:
<quoted text>

So Buddhism is no different than any other belief that has flawed adherents.
Unlike the barbaric teachings of the Hebrew patriarchs, Jesus, Krishna or Muhammad, the teachings of the Buddha are lofty.

The followers of the Buddha are the usual riff raff sections of humanity who have more than their fair share of animal passions and personality flaws.

Adam 36

Since: Aug 13

Location hidden

#71591 Apr 14, 2014
JOEL COOL DUDE wrote:
<quoted text>
Unlike the barbaric teachings of the Hebrew patriarchs, Jesus, Krishna or Muhammad, the teachings of the Buddha are lofty.
The followers of the Buddha are the usual riff raff sections of humanity who have more than their fair share of animal passions and personality flaws.
I think you are simply misguided in your understanding of other's beliefs. All true believers think their approach has lofty ideals in comparison to others.

BTW what barbaric teachings of the Hebrew patriarchs are you referring to?
former res

Cheshire, CT

#71592 Apr 14, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
My focus was on the implications of a ban of the religious expression of Jews. If nonJews want to adopt a practice and apply it out of context, well, thats just another example of the normal bizarreness of the world we live in. Like I said before, we see the same thing when nonJews buy Kosher.
I don't blame you for not reading my post on the origins of circ - the conclusion > unknown and debated. It wasn't exactly scintillating reading.

How do you mean "out of context?" Why do pretend not to know why non-Jews have it done. Seems disingenuous. And a waste of typing here.

I buy kosher hotdogs because I think they taste good, not because they're kosher. I'm nothing if not practical and pragmatic.
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I wont weigh in whether nonJews are foolish for circumcising their newborns. I imagine they do it perceived hygienic reasons, strongly rooted in their culture. Perceptions are stronger than objective evidence.
Good guess. Same with your tonsils.
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
My tonsils were never removed, and I have regretted it for many years. Plenty of infections.
See above.

You may have had 2 or 3 add'l infections as child.

Funny how science trumps belief IRL.

Think evolution, gravity, round earth, climate change. etc..........
former res

Cheshire, CT

#71593 Apr 14, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
One has to expend energy promoting gay rights so that a segment of the populations is allowed to lawfully experience the same opportunities as the rest of us. I dont see the parallel with circumcision. I dont get what rights, in the absence of medical impacts, that the newborn are being deprived on. I dont buy the cosmetic/mutilation argument - besides from ear piercing, we kill skin cells and change our natural beauty whenever we apply makeup. I dont buy the consent arguments - we vaccine newborns without their consent, we dress them up without their consent, we have power of attorney as guardians....
There is no reason that I wouldnt go against Peta. I agree with your logic. But one picks their battles, and the best battles to pick are those that affect your home.
Who erected the stop sign? Where does it come from? On the same subject, I was always hazy on the subject of emergency lights on top of vehicles. Not only police and ambulances, but also private tow trucks, and other construction vehicles. Can anyone put a light on their vehicle?
So if they outlawed snake handling for no perceived good reason, you'd let that go without a word.

And then they decided circ was next. Would you be surprised? Would you regret not speaking up sooner? Precedent etc..

And then they came for me.

That was pretty much my point. Take it or leave it.

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#71594 Apr 14, 2014
Yawn. LOL.

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#71596 Apr 14, 2014
Yawn. LOL. Hugh, where are you?
former res

Cheshire, CT

#71597 Apr 14, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
The religion has a peoplehood component. There are core traditions that define the people (and the religion). Without the tradition, there is no people or religion. Brit happens to be one of them, thats all.(knowledge of Hebrew is another one) We all have our lines in the sand.
I never said I wasnt traditional. In fact, I consider myself very traditional. Often I note that the traditional is more expansive and more liberal than one might initially assume with limited education or exposure. And I direct that observation not only to nonJews like you, but Jews that have grown up in sequestered experiences.
Scripture is always at the root of the tradition, of course. But there are layers and layers of tradition regarding their implementation. Its not so simple as literal application. The text references circumcision but provides no details regarding the elaborate ceremony that accompanies it. That came later. Different Jewish movements differ as to the weight and appropriateness of details such as these, but they all agree with the textual source of the tradition.
You seem a little loose on the whole belief in god thing though (and please don't say again how practice is more important - I get it). The whole thing is built on an underlying belief. A faith.(The belief in something WITHOUT evidence.)

Moses. The Commandments etc. These were the words of god - no? If not, then your whole belief system could just as easily be built on what a bunch of wise old men wrote down thousand of years ago. And what really makes you think these guys were any wiser and smarter than you.

Maybe one of them, on a whim, jotted down once that you should all lop of your babies' foreskin and this will help to make him a man.

And so for thousands of years, you've blindly been perpetuating the "tradition?!"

Either two choices: these were the actual words of god or you have to entertain the very real possibility that the scenario the line above is true.

And then what is the importance of Scripture?

Interesting article with different points of view - here's just one:

http://www.momentmag.com/can-there-be-judaism...

Joe Lieberman

There can be Jews who are good people without belief in God, but ultimately Judaism cannot continue to exist without belief in God because the Jewish historical narrative depends on it. I was raised in a traditional setting, to believe that we’re judged—and this comes from the prophetic writings—by our behavior, not whether we observe this or that ritual, though we should observe those rituals. Judaism without God, in my opinion, will not remain Judaism and will ultimately vanish. My somewhat circular logic is that I accept the truth of the promise that God made to our forefathers and foremothers: that the Jewish people will be eternal. But I also believe that the promise was conditioned on a continuing belief in God.

Senator Joe Lieberman is an Independent senator from Connecticut and author of a new book on the Sabbath, The Gift of Rest.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#71598 Apr 14, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't blame you for not reading my post on the origins of circ - the conclusion > unknown and debated. It wasn't exactly scintillating reading.
How do you mean "out of context?" Why do pretend not to know why non-Jews have it done. Seems disingenuous. And a waste of typing here.
I buy kosher hotdogs because I think they taste good, not because they're kosher. I'm nothing if not practical and pragmatic.
<quoted text>
Good guess. Same with your tonsils.
<quoted text>
See above.
You may have had 2 or 3 add'l infections as child.
Funny how science trumps belief IRL.
Think evolution, gravity, round earth, climate change. etc..........
I did read your post on the origins. I get it. But you need to understand that people make a similar argument about kosher - that it was for health reasons. Maybe. Maybe not,. But whats relevant is the role of either practices (brit and koher) on the system now (now as defined as the last 2000 years). It is about membership, not health. In other words, anthropologists can lecture us, but they miss the whole point - the function of the institution internally.

I have problems with my tonsils as an adult as well as a child. One of them is much larger than the others. So I am not swayed by your metaphor.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#71599 Apr 14, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
So if they outlawed snake handling for no perceived good reason, you'd let that go without a word.
And then they decided circ was next. Would you be surprised? Would you regret not speaking up sooner? Precedent etc..
And then they came for me.
That was pretty much my point. Take it or leave it.
I get it. Like I said, I agreed with you from the get go. Just being practical, thats why I wouldnt stick my neck out - plenty of other stuff on my desk.
Eric

Des Plaines, IL

#71600 Apr 14, 2014

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