Messianic Jews say they are persecute...

Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

There are 72043 comments on the Newsday story from Jun 21, 2008, titled Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel. In it, Newsday reports that:

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Newsday.

former res

Cheshire, CT

#71538 Apr 13, 2014
Frijoles

Did you know that American Evangelical Zionists far outnumber Jewish ones? Around 70 million evangelicals - 80% of whom are pro-Israel vs around 14 million Jews on earth.

Just saw this HBO doc on the subject. It said they send most of their money and support (significant$$) to West Bank Settlements, undermining US efforts for a 2-state solution.

As I'm sure you know, Jews need to control ALL of Israel in order for the Second Coming to take place - Armageddon. Hence, no 2-state will solution will work for these folks' purpose.

Unfortunately 2/3 of Jews will die when this happens.

Kind of reminds me of fattening the lambs for the slaughter.

Guessing you're not impressed when hear of support from the Evangelicals.

I had heard some of this before but never had it all spelled out for in a 14 minute doc. No biblical scholar here. Same old same old.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#71539 Apr 13, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Again I think your argument doesn't seem to flow from our discussion but from some other things you may have heard or read on the subject. Which could explain the confusing nature of it (at least to me).
I've never heard of anyone wanting to ban the practice. But I don't claim to be an expert or even knowledgeable about it. For me it's already bygones and I have no offspring.
Parents have a lot worse ways of fxcking up their kids and I'm not a crusader on this or any other issue.
It's you who wants to compare the practice to female clit cutting and ear piercing. I don't see the point either way. It is what it is.
And I don't see it as an argument. I see it as a point of view. Non-religious folks who are against doing it. Nothing wrong with that. As you say, can't we disagree and get along?
If someone wants to call it a mutilation I think that's a fair statement. I regret it was done to me and had I kids, I wouldn't do it to them. Did it ruin my life? No. But did it expose a sensitive area meant to be covered and protected? Clearly yes.
Worse than ear piercing? Absolutely. As bad as female circ? No.(Your comparisons, not mine.)
allow me to educate you

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/san-francisco-ci...
Proposed Circumcision Ban Struck From San Francisco Ballot
July 28, 2011

and......----

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision_con...

Many anti-circumcision groups have joined the International Coalition for Genital Integrity [85] and endorsed its declaration,[86] which was adopted by the First International Symposium on Circumcision, on March 3, 1989, at Anaheim, California.(There have been nine such further symposia held since, with the proceedings of several subsequently published in book form.)[87] Intact America, founded in 2008, lobbies organizations such as the American Academy of Pediatrics, American Civil Liberties Union, and Centers for Disease Control to alter policy and change attitudes toward male infant circumcision.
However, linking male circumcision to female genital mutilation (FGM) is itself highly controversial. Organizations actually involved in combating FGM have been at considerable pains to distinguish the two, as this UNICEF document explains: "When the practice first came to be known beyond the societies in which it was traditionally carried out, it was generally referred to as "female circumcision". This term, however, draws a direct parallel with male circumcision and, as a result, creates confusion between these two distinct practices."[88]

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#71540 Apr 13, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Now, I wonder, do you respect the Christian snake handlers the same way you want folks to respect the religious practice of circumcision? How about any other odd religious practices not your own?
If it doesnt violate current animal cruelty laws, or other laws, its not my concern

Ditto for any other practice.(note - refusing to deliver cakes to gay weddings does violate laws - civil right laws)

People who dont believe in circumcision have the ability to act on that belief - by not doing it to their sons. There is no need to go after other people. Not much different than the abortion issue. Like I said, the intactivists are reaching too far. No one is preventing them from practicing their own beliefs among themselves.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#71541 Apr 13, 2014
former res wrote:
Frijoles
Did you know that American Evangelical Zionists far outnumber Jewish ones? Around 70 million evangelicals - 80% of whom are pro-Israel vs around 14 million Jews on earth.
Just saw this HBO doc on the subject. It said they send most of their money and support (significant$$) to West Bank Settlements, undermining US efforts for a 2-state solution.
As I'm sure you know, Jews need to control ALL of Israel in order for the Second Coming to take place - Armageddon. Hence, no 2-state will solution will work for these folks' purpose.
Unfortunately 2/3 of Jews will die when this happens.
Kind of reminds me of fattening the lambs for the slaughter.
Guessing you're not impressed when hear of support from the Evangelicals.
I had heard some of this before but never had it all spelled out for in a 14 minute doc. No biblical scholar here. Same old same old.
Old news, my friend. There are a gazillion Christians, and only a few million Jews. And the Christians are not interested in Jews for the Jews sake. Unfortunately, one can not always pick your allies.

As an American, I never have been comfortable with the Christians religious rights support of Israel, as it comes with strings attached. The strings I refer to is the implicit recognition of the Christian right by the Israelis, which in my opinion, indirectly undermines the American domestic values I support. Kind the the flip of your observation that the Right undermines American international policy.

But that all said, there is so much negative misinformation floating around about Israeli policy and society, with public opinion at times so much against the country, that when someone steps up to the plate, it is almost insane to tell them to go away.

Also, there is enough Arab and Muslim wealth, that if the Arabs and Muslims wanted to really solve the problem, they could create a Palestinian state over night with their financial support. Obviously they dont want to solve the problem, and would rather use the Palestinians as pawns.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#71542 Apr 13, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
allow me to educate you
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/san-francisco-ci...
Proposed Circumcision Ban Struck From San Francisco Ballot
July 28, 2011
SF has floated a lot of odd ballot measures over the years.

Doesn't sound this was anywhere near getting off the ground.

If the Evangelicals catch wind of this, you'll be all set!

:))
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
and......----
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision_con...
Many anti-circumcision groups have joined the International Coalition for Genital Integrity [85] and endorsed its declaration,[86] which was adopted by the First International Symposium on Circumcision, on March 3, 1989, at Anaheim, California.(There have been nine such further symposia held since, with the proceedings of several subsequently published in book form.)[87] Intact America, founded in 2008, lobbies organizations such as the American Academy of Pediatrics, American Civil Liberties Union, and Centers for Disease Control to alter policy and change attitudes toward male infant circumcision.
However, linking male circumcision to female genital mutilation (FGM) is itself highly controversial. Organizations actually involved in combating FGM have been at considerable pains to distinguish the two, as this UNICEF document explains: "When the practice first came to be known beyond the societies in which it was traditionally carried out, it was generally referred to as "female circumcision". This term, however, draws a direct parallel with male circumcision and, as a result, creates confusion between these two distinct practices."[88]
It's right in there alright - not the same thing:

Organizations actually involved in combating FGM have been at considerable pains to distinguish the two, as this UNICEF document explains: "When the practice first came to be known beyond the societies in which it was traditionally carried out, it was generally referred to as "female circumcision". This term, however, draws a direct parallel with male circumcision and, as a result, creates confusion between these two distinct practices."[88]

__________

It's the word circumcision in connections with females that's misleading.

Not to say the word mutilation doesn't fit both practices.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#71543 Apr 13, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
SF has floated a lot of odd ballot measures over the years.
Doesn't sound this was anywhere near getting off the ground.
If the Evangelicals catch wind of this, you'll be all set!
:))
<quoted text>
It's right in there alright - not the same thing:
Organizations actually involved in combating FGM have been at considerable pains to distinguish the two, as this UNICEF document explains: "When the practice first came to be known beyond the societies in which it was traditionally carried out, it was generally referred to as "female circumcision". This term, however, draws a direct parallel with male circumcision and, as a result, creates confusion between these two distinct practices."[88]
__________
It's the word circumcision in connections with females that's misleading.
Not to say the word mutilation doesn't fit both practices.
I know its not the same thing. But the fact that it was addressed in this article indicates that there was/is a movement afloat who did make that claim. Hence my point

Mutilation is an emotionally tinged word. And its choice was carefully selected for that reason.

I agree San Fran is whacky. But a little artful googling may point out they are not alone for this movement. And I agree its not exactly going to get a lot of traction, in the US.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#71544 Apr 13, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
If it doesnt violate current animal cruelty laws, or other laws, its not my concern
"Current" you say. But obviously laws and attitudes change.(Perhaps as we're seeing with circ).

"I did nothing and then they came for me......."

So if some bleeding hearts got together and decided the snakes were being traumatized during these snake handling church services and outlawed the practice....

ok with you?
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Ditto for any other practice.(note - refusing to deliver cakes to gay weddings does violate laws - civil right laws)
Though if they could get their cake elsewhere....it could be argued (as I have) that it violates the bakers' rights to run his business and choose his customers as he sees fit.

Ex-felons could become a "protected class" next and then you'd be required to hire them regardless of whether or not you trust them in your cash drawer.
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
People who dont believe in circumcision have the ability to act on that belief - by not doing it to their sons. There is no need to go after other people. Not much different than the abortion issue. Like I said, the intactivists are reaching too far. No one is preventing them from practicing their own beliefs among themselves.
No need to go after others, I agree.

I'm curious though. As a semi-agnostic, not so much by the book, nature worshiper, I'm a little surprised you take this one procedure so much to heart.

I didn't think you took scripture so literally.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#71546 Apr 13, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Old news, my friend. There are a gazillion Christians, and only a few million Jews. And the Christians are not interested in Jews for the Jews sake. Unfortunately, one can not always pick your allies.
As an American, I never have been comfortable with the Christians religious rights support of Israel, as it comes with strings attached. The strings I refer to is the implicit recognition of the Christian right by the Israelis, which in my opinion, indirectly undermines the American domestic values I support. Kind the the flip of your observation that the Right undermines American international policy.
But that all said, there is so much negative misinformation floating around about Israeli policy and society, with public opinion at times so much against the country, that when someone steps up to the plate, it is almost insane to tell them to go away.
Also, there is enough Arab and Muslim wealth, that if the Arabs and Muslims wanted to really solve the problem, they could create a Palestinian state over night with their financial support. Obviously they dont want to solve the problem, and would rather use the Palestinians as pawns.
Well...I figured it was old news...it being somewhere in the good book and all.

I just never had it spelled out like that before.

"End Times Ministry" I think the group was called.'

But don't group all us Christians together. I never heard any of this in the Catholic Church. And I don't think most Protestants even dwell on it.

It seems to be the evangelicals. the nuts of the fly over states.

I said something about being a Christian once and my uncle said "your're not a Christian - you're Catholic!" so there you go - old school Irish Catholic
former res

Cheshire, CT

#71547 Apr 13, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>......Mutilation is an emotionally tinged word. And its choice was carefully selected for that reason......
It is but I honestly find the term is hard to argue with. And I'm not just trying to be provocative.

If someone goes in for elective cosmetic surgery, I think they are agreeing to be mutilated in some way. Perhaps for a better look in the end but still.

They're being cut. Disfigurement is one aspect of mutilation (the definition I read) and removing part of a body part obviously changes it forever. It's gone. And therefore no longer doing its job. It sure ain't the way god made us!
former res

Cheshire, CT

#71548 Apr 13, 2014
The origination of male circumcision is not known with certainty. It has been variously proposed that it began as a religious sacrifice, as a rite of passage marking a boy's entrance into adulthood, as a form of sympathetic magic to ensure virility or fertility, as a means of enhancing sexual pleasure, as an aid to hygiene where regular bathing was impractical, as a means of marking those of higher social status, as a means of humiliating enemies and slaves by symbolic castration, as a means of differentiating a circumcising group from their non-circumcising neighbors, as a means of discouraging masturbation or other socially proscribed sexual behaviors, as a means of removing "excess" pleasure, as a means of increasing a man's attractiveness to women, as a demonstration of one's ability to endure pain, or as a male counterpart to menstruation or the breaking of the hymen, or to copy the rare natural occurrence of a missing foreskin of an important leader, and as a display of disgust of the smegma produced by the foreskin. It has been suggested that the custom of circumcision gave advantages to tribes that practiced it and thus led to its spread.[1][2][3] Darby describes these theories as "conflicting", and states that "the only point of agreement among proponents of the various theories is that promoting good health had nothing to do with it."[2] Immerman et al. suggest that circumcision causes lowered sexual arousal of pubescent males, and hypothesize that this was a competitive advantage to tribes practising circumcision, leading to its spread.[4] Wilson suggests that circumcision reduces insemination efficiency, reducing a man's capacity for extra-pair fertilizations by impairing sperm competition. Thus, men who display this signal of sexual obedience, may gain social benefits, if married men are selected to offer social trust and investment preferentially to peers who are less threatening to their paternity.[5] It is possible that circumcision arose independently in different cultures for different reasons.

The oldest documentary evidence for circumcision comes from ancient Egypt.[6] Circumcision was common, although not universal, among ancient Semitic peoples.[7] In the aftermath of the conquests of Alexander the Great, however, Greek dislike of circumcision (they regarded a man as truly "naked" only if his prepuce was retracted) led to a decline in its incidence among many peoples that had previously practiced it.[8]

Circumcision has ancient roots among several ethnic groups in sub-equatorial Africa, and is still performed on adolescent boys to symbolize their transition to warrior status or adulthood.[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_male_...

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#71549 Apr 13, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
It is but I honestly find the term is hard to argue with. And I'm not just trying to be provocative.
If someone goes in for elective cosmetic surgery, I think they are agreeing to be mutilated in some way. Perhaps for a better look in the end but still.
They're being cut. Disfigurement is one aspect of mutilation (the definition I read) and removing part of a body part obviously changes it forever. It's gone. And therefore no longer doing its job. It sure ain't the way god made us!
You are viewing it from the clinical, objective, medical definition. That was not what the activists were shooting for. They chose the word for its emotional currency (i.e. the layperson, non professional usage). They are looking to rile people up, while you are looking to objectively describe. My fight is with them, not you.

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#71550 Apr 13, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>

No, they are interpretations of the teachings of Bhudda.
Oh you Demon Worshipper,

What will you understand the true greatness of a grand soul like Gautama Siddhartha (The Buddha) who never spoke a harsh word to anyone, not even to his worst detractors, and who was an incarnation of the universal compassion, universal love, universal peace and universal brotherhood?

Buddha as the evolving Boddhisatva over dozens of his past incarnations that he referred to while speaking from the trance state was truly an Enlightened One who was willing to lay down his life to save a lowly animal and who expended every bit of energy to succor the suffering and who through precept and practice showed them the causes of distress and the way out of the mess via his lofty teachings and profound meditative practices resulting in Nirvana.

HaShem, Moses, Abraham and Elijah are not fit to polish the shoes of the sublime Buddha.

Jesus, the intolerant fanatic, tried imitating the great Buddha but failed miserably.

Mahavira was a an equal of the Buddha.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#71551 Apr 13, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Well...I figured it was old news...it being somewhere in the good book and all.
I just never had it spelled out like that before.
"End Times Ministry" I think the group was called.'
But don't group all us Christians together. I never heard any of this in the Catholic Church. And I don't think most Protestants even dwell on it.
It seems to be the evangelicals. the nuts of the fly over states.
I said something about being a Christian once and my uncle said "your're not a Christian - you're Catholic!" so there you go - old school Irish Catholic
You are excused, my son

and yes, I take a nuanced view.

Until Santorum came around, Catholics were probably not considered Christian by the Right.

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#71552 Apr 13, 2014
Buddha and Mahavira (founder of Jainism) were the rarest of rare souls born in history whose very presence on earth has been a great blessing to humankind.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#71553 Apr 13, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
"Current" you say. But obviously laws and attitudes change.(Perhaps as we're seeing with circ).
"I did nothing and then they came for me......."
So if some bleeding hearts got together and decided the snakes were being traumatized during these snake handling church services and outlawed the practice....
ok with you?
<quoted text>
Not the first time, or the last time, that attitudes rather than science led to change in legislation. And yes, I believe in abiding by the law. Which is why it is best to nip this bud while we still can (chuckle..) before it comes a law.

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#71554 Apr 13, 2014
I am a great admirer of Buddha and Mahavira and proud to be associated with India where these lofty souls were born.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#71555 Apr 13, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm curious though. As a semi-agnostic, not so much by the book, nature worshiper, I'm a little surprised you take this one procedure so much to heart.
I didn't think you took scripture so literally.
Brit milah (circumcision) is THE core initiation ceremony for males into the Jewish tribe. I dont believe it is proper to screw around with the fundamentals. And even more importantly, I fail to see a reason for why one would should even consider......

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#71556 Apr 13, 2014
JOEL COOL DUDE wrote:
I am a great admirer of Buddha and Mahavira and proud to be associated with India where these lofty souls were born.
I will hold you to your words. No more nasty posts.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#71557 Apr 13, 2014
JOEL COOL DUDE wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh you Demon Worshipper,
.
Would Bhudda use that language?

JOEL COOL DUDE

Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#71558 Apr 13, 2014
Among the great saints that have graced this earth, Kabir and Nanak (founder of Sikhism) were the greatest. They had during waking trance states reached up to the quadruple Overmental Planes (9th, 10th, 11th and 12th planes of the cosmic consciousness accessed through their awakened psychic) and brought down via their teachings and meditative practices the higher light. They were truly great human beings.

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