Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

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Since: Jan 14

Location hidden

#67556 Feb 12, 2014
E23Jer34 wrote:
<quoted text>

This is not about "being wealthy". This is about a power grabbing, loss of empathy, mass murder and debt creation in the banking network.
I'll answer you later.

I know what you're hinting at.

In one line - Jews are in many ways being used by certain powerful lobbies.

More, later....
former res

Cheshire, CT

#67557 Feb 12, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Personally, I dont take to the reward and punishment metaphors. I act in order to attain some type of relationship and leave it as that. Obviously that implies something to relate to. That would be your "belief". However, I am also aware that I create that "to" in order to focus my behavior, but in the pure sense the "to" is an allusion to some epistemeological category that is not (or doesnt have to be) an "a". Like I said before, I am faithful (in action) to a "a", but I dont necessarily believe in the existence of the "a".
I think my head is spinning but as long as it works for you.

Enjoy the snow!
Ravank

Brooklyn, NY

#67558 Feb 12, 2014
My ... all this knowledge that G-d exists. Makes it odd to say then that if Jesus had instead said ".. Let us hate each other" that perhaps he would have been spared an untimely death and had simply died of old age, instead of as the G-d everyone made him out to having been. Clearly, he was only a man. Clearly, everyone hates each other. The creator of this immense universe needs praise for what exactly!?

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#67559 Feb 13, 2014
Ravank wrote:
My ... all this knowledge that G-d exists. Makes it odd to say then that if Jesus had instead said ".. Let us hate each other" that perhaps he would have been spared an untimely death and had simply died of old age, instead of as the G-d everyone made him out to having been. Clearly, he was only a man. Clearly, everyone hates each other. The creator of this immense universe needs praise for what exactly!?
The creator doesnt need the praise. Prayer is for us.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#67560 Feb 13, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I think my head is spinning but as long as it works for you.
Enjoy the snow!
Thats the same position I have been posting all along.

Here is another way of explaining this - Martin Buber to the rescue!

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/...

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#67561 Feb 13, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
The very desire "...to please God and win his blessing" stems from sort of religious belief.
What or who is god? Why do we want to please him?
Thought (or belief) determines behavior aka action.
Why do Rabbis care "what they do, down to the smallest detail—for instance, which shoe ought to be put on?'
For the result? ok - why?
"Produce the desired result?" Why? To please god and win his blessing.
Who? Why?
It all goes back to the underlying faith or belief.
Without that, there would be no focused behavior/action.
Why bother?
Here is another way of saying this.

First note that I posted that Talmud citation as an example of how classic Judaism portrays the value of behavior vs belief. I dont buy into the "why" of that (reward and punishment motivation), because my theology is post-classical, but I do buy into the overall architecture of the system (i.e valuing behavior before belief).

The question you continue to have is "why" follow the mitzvot, and does following the mitzvot mean a belief in the existence of God?

That is a good question and is at the heart of all of this. You want to tease out the underlying belief system. That's fair.

My underlying belief system would be thus: Performance of the mitzvot leads to a connection to God. God not as a being, but God as a state. The state of holiness. Characterized as an "I-thou" relationship (Here I refer back to the Buber article I previously posted).

When we use "God talk" (i.e. when we talk about God and force it into an object to be analyzed) we are in an "I-it" relationship with God. God becomes an "it". For convenience. For utility. To be able to be analytical,

But prayer and performance of the mitzvot (really the same thing as far as I am concerned) puts me in a "I-thou" relationship, which is more about experience than objectification. The experience of holiness, which is God. God is no longer an "it".

Are these beliefs? Arguably yes, and arguably no.

Beliefs come from the "I-it" perspective, and as long as we coming from that perspective then we can tease out theologies and underlying belief systems. But the ideal place is to be in the "I-thou" perspective during the performance of the religion.

Both perspectives are necessary to function as a human being, and in fact, I move in and out of both perspectives even during the process of prayer.

A more mystical way of saying all of this is that on one level (pure God) we are all one. But in our day to day, we create *(or God creates) the illusion of separateness (the I-it relationship), so that we can go on with our day, and getting our things done without acting like a complete stoner all the time.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#67562 Feb 13, 2014
Frijoles

I just have to repeat that: Thought (belief) will always drive behavior. You don't just buy flowers for your wife because it's a habit or an instinct. You've thought about it, and you know it's a holiday, a tradition, and/or an expectation (on her part!). There are things we do without thinking of course (breathing etc), but not so much in the religious (or spiritual) realm.

You've also said something to the effect of "think less" and how logic does not necessarily apply to all of this (as opposed to science), but it seems you've thought and reasoned this out quite a bit.

On the side. I was just watching the snow. Oddly enough I can barely see it falling, almost not at all. But it is clearly accumulating rapidly on the ground. So I know (have faith, believe) the snow really IS falling. How's that for a results-based observation of a process?(As you know me through my words on this forum? And god?)

I can't say that I understand your thinking or process. It is foreign to me, almost like another language. And I still think there must be underlying beliefs in order to drive all of it. But it is clear to me you're sincere and that it brings you some kind of reward, peace of mind, comfort, meaning. I believe you would say meaning.

As a still-occasional stoner, I like that comment.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#67563 Feb 13, 2014
ps

Now it's lighter out and I can see the snow falling.

Mystery revealed.

:))

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#67564 Feb 13, 2014
former res wrote:
Frijoles
\\
I can't say that I understand your thinking or process. It is foreign to me, almost like another language. And I still think there must be underlying beliefs in order to drive all of it. But it is clear to me you're sincere and that it brings you some kind of reward, peace of mind, comfort, meaning. I believe you would say meaning.
As a still-occasional stoner, I like that comment.
I know its another language. You havent been exposed to these perspectives, since your exposure to religious thought appears to be from mainstream christianity. Thats why I posted Buber - another way to express it. Who, by the way, is not only regarded as a Jewish theologian, but a philosopher in the secular world as well. And one of theoretical muses of the Beat Generation as well Alan (Ginsberg etc*)(and therefore the Hippie generation).

Go back and read the article on Buber again and hopefully it will start to make sense. By the way, one can have a I-thou relationship not only with "God" but other things such as nature, people, etc.

*Alan Ginsburg and Martin Buber
http://ginsbergblog.blogspot.com/2012/02/mart...

".....1961 - Allen sought out "all the holy men I could find". "I wanted to find out if they had any suggestions. And they all did, and they were all good ones." - "First one I saw was Martin Buber, who was interested (interesting).

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#67566 Feb 13, 2014
former res wrote:
ps
Now it's lighter out and I can see the snow falling.
Mystery revealed.
:))
what snow?

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#67567 Feb 13, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
what snow?
Keep an eye out for Yetis.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#67568 Feb 13, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Keep an eye out for Yetis.
Probably wouldnt even notice.

Do you think we will break the 2 foot mark?
E23Jer34

Klaksvík, Faroe Islands

#67572 Feb 13, 2014
yehoshooah adam wrote:
<quoted text>
rabbee: hasatan is adversary to WHOM? as it appears, you are working for him as an adversary to G-D also.


What G-D the jewish god? That is a 100% invented fake god.

There is no G-D there is only jewish idiots who invented the bible and who claimed they are "gods chosen"

Take your pervert bible and stick it up your ass.
E23Jer34

Klaksvík, Faroe Islands

#67573 Feb 13, 2014
Who is the G-d you keep talking about. Don't you have the letter "O" in your alphabeth.
Don't jews have "O" in the jewish alphabeth?

I don't know what God you speak about - i've never seen any proof for the jewish god.

I don't go by the way of your primitive jewish laws, so stop calling me a sinner since i don't give a damn about the bible.

I a god in my way, i don't need any blessings or opinion of jews who believe in a primitive fantasy god.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#67574 Feb 13, 2014
Battle of the nuts

Will sit back and enjoy
E23Jer34

Klaksvík, Faroe Islands

#67575 Feb 13, 2014
yehoshooah adam wrote:
<quoted text>
rabbee: oh so is this your excuse for breaking, all the commandments from G-D?


What is that supposed to mean? the 10 commandments are retarded and clearly invented by primitive men who sought out to control thoughts of others.

Jesus christ - do you have alzheimer.?
I already told you - i am not a christian and thankfully not a jew - I'm not supposed to follow that.

You jews however have alot of laws to keep - I can just open the bible on the shelf and read in the old testament - then i can see what you are supposed to do.
E23Jer34

Klaksvík, Faroe Islands

#67576 Feb 13, 2014
I can work the sabbath day, i can do lots of things that jews can't do according to the old testament.

but jews do those things anyways - they constantly break the rules that they invented themselfs.

Jews are shameless.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#67578 Feb 13, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Probably wouldnt even notice.
Do you think we will break the 2 foot mark?
Don't know.

Snow is getting wet and packed now. Blower worked good this morning, but is worthless now. I'm beat. Lighting a nice fire now and will sit the rest of it out.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#67579 Feb 13, 2014
Not sure if this showed up the first time (Post #67565), 3 hours ago.
It seemed invisible off and on. Maybe just not as interesting as I thought it was:

It's interesting. I think CoR posted this information:

What percentage of philosophers believe in God?

God: atheism 72.8%; theism 14.6%; other 12.6%.

And:

Scientists and Belief

Indeed, the survey shows that scientists are roughly half as likely as the general public to believe in God or a higher power. According to the poll, just over half of scientists (51%) believe in some form of deity or higher power; specifically, 33% of scientists say they believe in God, while 18% believe in a universal spirit or higher power. By contrast, 95% of Americans believe in some form of deity or higher power, according to a survey of the general public conducted by the Pew Research Center in July 2006. Specifically, more than eight-in-ten Americans (83%) say they believe in God and 12% believe in a universal spirit or higher power. Finally, the poll of scientists finds that four-in-ten scientists (41%) say they do not believe in God or a higher power, while the poll of the public finds that only 4% of Americans share this view.

[Tried deleting the links as it didn't show up 2nd time either, post #...77]

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#67580 Feb 13, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
Battle of the nuts
Will sit back and enjoy
Faroe Islands is known to host various proxy servers. My guess is we are dealing with a regular who is now trolling under a different name.

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