Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

Full story: Newsday

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.
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60,161 - 60,180 of 68,833 Comments Last updated 4 hrs ago
former res

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#66697
Feb 2, 2014
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Nature vs Nurture again. Sociobiologists vs the social scientists.
When they find a gene that expresses morality, I will be more impressed with the former perspective. Until then, I am more sympathetic to the latter.
Like most things, the truth is probably in the middle - both.

How many other animals can learn right or wrong, good or bad, or reason? To what extent?

If a child is raised by Fagin (think Oliver Twist), then well, you know.

So clearly it's both, but the neurological framework/wiring needs to be present.

The point was I believe that we don't need religion to teach morality or ethics and clearly this is true as well.

Even if one were to show a positive correlation between atheism and, say crime - this would only show correlation and not causation.

It could just be that criminals don't tend to make time to go to church or temple.
former res

Cheshire, CT

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#66698
Feb 2, 2014
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>....And, like I said before, its not that I know of such an "object", what I can relate to is how it relates to me, in the same way I know you from my relationship to you. I dont know the real you.......
You know me only through my typed words. We've communicated.

I understand praying/wishing/worshiping.

The part I don't understand is how this entity has communicated with you.
What form does this take?

Do you have more evidence for my existence than for this object's?
former res

Cheshire, CT

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#66699
Feb 2, 2014
 
What is a non-theist religion?

Examples?

What makes these religions?

Versus say, philosophies?

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66700
Feb 2, 2014
 

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former res wrote:
What is a non-theist religion?
Examples?
What makes these religions?
Versus say, philosophies?
I gave you from the Jewish perspectives a few examples a while ago. They tend to be of the nonduality perspective. Hasidic approaches, kabbalistic approaches, reconstructionist approaches. From the nonJewish perspective, Zen Bhuddism.....

I define religion as a human response to a calling (or yearning). Religion is a behavior not just a thought process. Philosophy is a system of thought.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66701
Feb 2, 2014
 

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former res wrote:
<quoted text>
You know me only through my typed words. We've communicated.
I understand praying/wishing/worshiping.
The part I don't understand is how this entity has communicated with you.
What form does this take?
Do you have more evidence for my existence than for this object's?
I keep telling you, grasshopper, that I dont believe in an entity. I am not a theist. I do believe in an interconnectiveness of things, and afford that "Being" status out of respect for language. Its more a process than a noun, but noun language comes in handy. Think of it this way. What are you? A collection of cells AND bacteria(other beings). What is God? A collection of people, places, and things, in process. What is my evidence? Who knows? All I know is how the outside "world" relates to me, and how I relate back. Thats a feeling, not a thought.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66702
Feb 2, 2014
 

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former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Like most things, the truth is probably in the middle - both.
How many other animals can learn right or wrong, good or bad, or reason? To what extent?
If a child is raised by Fagin (think Oliver Twist), then well, you know.
So clearly it's both, but the neurological framework/wiring needs to be present.
The point was I believe that we don't need religion to teach morality or ethics and clearly this is true as well.
Even if one were to show a positive correlation between atheism and, say crime - this would only show correlation and not causation.
It could just be that criminals don't tend to make time to go to church or temple.
I never said religion was NEEDED to teach morality. I said morality is found within religion. And Rick said that morality originated in religion historically. I have always said here that there are a plurality of paths that more or less lead you to the same place. You can get ethics from lit and movies (and cartoons) or get them from religion.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66703
Feb 2, 2014
 
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you suggesting that complex behavior like morality (assuming it is evolutionary) will fall to the identification of a single gene? I assume you're being a little facetious? We're not talking about hair color. More likely, we talking about genetic variations across multiple genes, and possibly entire brain structures. Surely you know it's not as simplistic as a single gene.
Of course I was being facetious. Thats why I cast my lot with the social scientists. Morality is a social construct.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66704
Feb 2, 2014
 
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
So you agree that the non-religious (atheists/agnostics) can be just as focused and think just as deeply as the religious, just in their own way? If you can agree to this without any exception clauses, then I think we can move on...
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Fine. But I'd like to see you agree that this type of behavior pattern (deep focus) can also be achieved without any religion (thesist or non-thesist).
I have said both things, a billion posts ago. For some reason either you were reading me superficially (too much multi-tasking) or your bias is stronger than you cared to admit.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66705
Feb 2, 2014
 
former res wrote:
What is a non-theist religion?
Examples?
What makes these religions?
Versus say, philosophies?
Here is a definition of religion that reflects my views

I know there are many other definitions, but my point is that IS fair game to move beyond the "system of belief" definition that you provided earlier, if one chooses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion#Definit...

In his book The Varieties of Religious Experience, the psychologist William James defined religion as "the feelings, acts, and experiences of individual men in their solitude, so far as they apprehend themselves to stand in relation to whatever they may consider the divine".[31] By the term "divine" James meant "any object that is godlike, whether it be a concrete deity or not"[32] to which the individual feels impelled to respond with solemnity and gravity.[33]

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#66706
Feb 2, 2014
 

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Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
I have said both things, a billion posts ago. For some reason either you were reading me superficially (too much multi-tasking) or your bias is stronger than you cared to admit.
Apparently, Former is in the same boat as me as he too found your statements confusing when you referred to religios thinkiers as "deeper" and "more focused" . If you agree that the non-religious" can be equally deep and focused, then I think we're done.

And I would caution against playing the "bias" card. You know that works both ways.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66707
Feb 2, 2014
 
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Apparently, Former is in the same boat as me as he too found your statements confusing when you referred to religios thinkiers as "deeper" and "more focused" . If you agree that the non-religious" can be equally deep and focused, then I think we're done.
And I would caution against playing the "bias" card. You know that works both ways.
If you scroll way back you will find that I refined my discourse after the FIRST round of questioning, when I moved from religion to awareness. Plus, even before that I moved the discussion away from theism.

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#66708
Feb 2, 2014
 
To change the subject (and lighten the mood a bit) is anyone planning on watching the Super Bowl tonight? I used to watch it strictly for the commercials - funny stuff....though this time I have some skin in the game since I entered an office pool.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66709
Feb 2, 2014
 
Cult of Reason wrote:
To change the subject (and lighten the mood a bit) is anyone planning on watching the Super Bowl tonight? I used to watch it strictly for the commercials - funny stuff....though this time I have some skin in the game since I entered an office pool.
Nah. I dont have live TV. My source of amusement this weekend has been the Chris Christie flame out.

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#66710
Feb 2, 2014
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Nah. I dont have live TV. My source of amusement this weekend has been the Chris Christie flame out.
Do you think he'll resign or get forced out? The odds are looking pretty good.

Have you been catching Job Stewarts take on it? I believe you can watch that online.

Also, the HuffPost has a bunch of banned Super Bowl commercials that you can watch from their site. Pretty funny stuff.

Who needs live TV anymore?

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66711
Feb 2, 2014
 
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you think he'll resign or get forced out? The odds are looking pretty good.
Have you been catching Job Stewarts take on it? I believe you can watch that online.
Also, the HuffPost has a bunch of banned Super Bowl commercials that you can watch from their site. Pretty funny stuff.
Who needs live TV anymore?
I think he will ultimately resign, but not until impeachment process is well underway. Its obvious to me at least that he has no grip on reality. I mean, did you see the memo he sent out to impugn his "friend"? Totally vindictive. Better off saying nothing.

Have watched a little Stewart lately. My favorite was his take down of the Republican response to the State of the Union.
former res

Cheshire, CT

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#66712
Feb 2, 2014
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I gave you from the Jewish perspectives a few examples a while ago. They tend to be of the nonduality perspective. Hasidic approaches, kabbalistic approaches, reconstructionist approaches. From the nonJewish perspective, Zen Bhuddism.....
I define religion as a human response to a calling (or yearning). Religion is a behavior not just a thought process. Philosophy is a system of thought.
Right, and I posted the correct definition of the word religion.

Now I remember.

You're making up your own definition for the word.

No wonder I'm confused.

This is why we have a supposedly common language, until someone
decides to call up down.

By your definition, young men going out to bars at night to seek
women - that would be a religion. Some might agree. I think we've
all had that calling.
former res

Cheshire, CT

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#66713
Feb 2, 2014
 

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Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I keep telling you, grasshopper, that I dont believe in an entity. I am not a theist. I do believe in an interconnectiveness of things, and afford that "Being" status out of respect for language. Its more a process than a noun, but noun language comes in handy. Think of it this way. What are you? A collection of cells AND bacteria(other beings). What is God? A collection of people, places, and things, in process. What is my evidence? Who knows? All I know is how the outside "world" relates to me, and how I relate back. Thats a feeling, not a thought.
You wrote:

>....And, like I said before, its not that I know of such an "object", what I can relate to is how it relates to me, in the same way I know you from my relationship to you. I dont know the real you.......

So you compared whatever it is you pray to, to me. Hence again, my confusion.

You don't pray to anything in particular? You pray to everything? You don't really believe in anything? But you believe it's all connected, so you kind of pray to that idea?

May I remind you again that "a process" is actually "a noun."

What I hear is that you really don't believe in god.

It's ok to say so.

Why go to temple.? You can do what you do on your own.
former res

Cheshire, CT

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#66714
Feb 2, 2014
 

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Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Here is a definition of religion that reflects my views
I know there are many other definitions, but my point is that IS fair game to move beyond the "system of belief" definition that you provided earlier, if one chooses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion#Definit...
In his book The Varieties of Religious Experience, the psychologist William James defined religion as "the feelings, acts, and experiences of individual men in their solitude, so far as they apprehend themselves to stand in relation to whatever they may consider the divine".[31] By the term "divine" James meant "any object that is godlike, whether it be a concrete deity or not"[32] to which the individual feels impelled to respond with solemnity and gravity.[33]
That's not what divine means. It connotes god.

Full Definition of DIVINE

1

a : of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God or a god <divine love>

b : being a deity <the divine Savior>

c : directed to a deity <divine worship>

Why use the word religion if you don't believe in god.

Why even count yourself a follower of Judaism?

It seems what you really value is meditation.
former res

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#66715
Feb 2, 2014
 
Cult of Reason wrote:
To change the subject (and lighten the mood a bit) is anyone planning on watching the Super Bowl tonight? I used to watch it strictly for the commercials - funny stuff....though this time I have some skin in the game since I entered an office pool.
I'm disillusioned at half-time. 22 zip.

I wanted the Broncos to win. 37 year old QB vs 25 year old punk who has plenty of time.

Also Seattle seems cocky!

Stopped watching but I'll check back.

Watching Anthony Bourdain in Denmark!

Good luck with the bet.

“Act Interdimensional ly”

Since: Jan 08

Singapore -- Home of Hot

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#66716
Feb 2, 2014
 

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Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I gave you from the Jewish perspectives a few examples a while ago. They tend to be of the nonduality perspective. Hasidic approaches, kabbalistic approaches, reconstructionist approaches. From the nonJewish perspective, Zen Bhuddism.....
I define religion as a human response to a calling (or yearning). Religion is a behavior not just a thought process. Philosophy is a system of thought.
Got a new favourite show -- "Venture Bros"

Imagine Jonny Quest if it was written and directed by John Waters and Sam Peckinpah ... freakin' awesome.

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