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“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66675
Feb 2, 2014
 

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Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
This notion that morality didn't exist prior to religion or that it transcends cultural norms is hogwash.

I'd be interested in knowing what philosopher outside of religious thinkers convinced you of that. Religion merely codified and enforced certain social norms. It you want to talk about where morality comes from "intrinsically" look no further than evolution and the notion that what is good for the group, also benefits me.
It would be illuminating for you to present your evidence of this claim other than evolution. A citation, or historical reference would suffice.

My understanding of evolution is that evolution does not care whether or not you have been good, Its a process.

However, as an aside, you want to impute agency on it, then you might as well consider worshipping it.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66676
Feb 2, 2014
 

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former res wrote:
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Isn't that kind of the whole point of this discussion?
Religion vs not-religion?
Whatever labels you want to use.
I think we're all being relatively civil.
Back from a hiatus.

My roles here was to provide another POV. It was never to say that the POV was THE answer. You properly called me on the carpet when you thought I was coming off as arrogant. My response was to refine my answer to make it more understandable, thats all. I dont wish to convince you of anything.

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#66677
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Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
You stated earlier that noone worships a verb (i.e. a process) and I responded that people do.
Then I followed up with a quote from a leader of a popular Jewish movement that believes God is a process, not a person - to back it my assertion.
I never asked you buy into the theology. Personally, I am not fan of that particular brand myself. I prefer AJ Heschel who I quote yesterday - who is less a pantheist and more a panentheist.
<quoted text>
EXACTLY! Now stop wasting your time with mental gymnastics (that do nothing but give you fits) and go meditate! Or eat an apple. Or watch a sunrise.
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Ok! but then why religion?
So I can convince myself that I am now thinking more deeply
than those without?
"why religion"?

Its up to you to flesh out an answer to this - not me - I am not here to convince you to join a religion. That would be inauthentic for you. You have to figure it out for yourself on your terms.

I'd imagine some people have a yearning to connect to something greater than themselves. To those people, the next step is to seek out a vocabulary to help them express this yearning. Organized religion provides that vocabulary and a path.

If you dont have the motivation (yearning, calling, whatever), then the path is not attractive to you, and the vocabulary is meaningless.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66678
Feb 2, 2014
 

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former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Ok! but then why religion?
So I can convince myself that I am now thinking more deeply
than those without?
My posts were about BEHAVING more deeply than others, and I already established that you dont have to be "religious" in the common theist sense of the word to be like this. You just need to be aware (i.e. stop mulltitasking).

If anything, its thinking LESS deeply.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66680
Feb 2, 2014
 

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Cult of Reason wrote:
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....... are multitasking and not fully appreciating (experiencing) their breakfast

I contend that I enjoy the experience of "eating breakfast" just as much as you or anyone else.
Of course you can still enjoy yourself when you multi-task (who am I to tell you what you can or can not feel?)

But by definition, when multi-tasking, you are enjoying more than one tasks simultaneously. In other words, you are going WIDE on multiple tasks instead of DEEP on one task..

Thats what I meant by being more deep. Being more focused. By focusing on breakfast alone, you can experience tastes, smells, textures, sight of your meal without distraction. You dilute this experience when reading the paper, talking on the phone etc etc.

We already agreed that this behavior pattern - deep focus - is uncorrelated with practice of theist religion. However, non-theist "religion" or behavior philosophy does encourage this type of behavior pattern.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66681
Feb 2, 2014
 

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HughBe wrote:
Frijoles---Almost 98% of most Jews today, those with Jewish educations that surpass 7th grade, believe or follow any of a plethora of God models that are far from the literal man in the sky that you have inherited from your Christian background.
HughBe----What a totally DISHONEST statement. It is NOT possible for 98% to do as you say when almost 50% are atheists or agnostics. In addition there are many Jews who are into Eastern religions and Christianity, a religion that for 4 centuries was regarded as a Jewish sect.
note the qualifier
HughBe wrote:
Frijoles--- And almost NONE follow mitzvot as an response to reward/punishment.
HughBe--- Are you really a Jew and more importantly a member of Judaism? Explain the lack of reward/punishment that is associated with the Rosh Hashanah and the Day of Atonement. Tell us what are the teachings associated with these festivals.
Even better, show me in the bible where the holiday theologies come from.

Good luck with that.

I'll save you time. The detailed theologies came later.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66682
Feb 2, 2014
 

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HughBe wrote:
Explain the lack of reward/punishment that is associated with the Rosh Hashanah and the Day of Atonement. Tell us what are the teachings associated with these festivals.
To continue to save you time and worthless rhetorical questioning, I might add that the central mitzvot of the holidays - the central mitzvah of Rosh Hashanah (to hear the shofar) and the central mitzvah of Yom Kippur (to afflict yourself)- ARE in the primary text of the bible.

However, the holiday theologies you are referencing are not, rather they are found in the Talmud.

Which brings us back to the question, why follow those mitzvot? Or any mitzvot? The answer to that question would be subject to interpretation, and with no due respect, given your obnoxiousness, you are the LAST person I would have that discussion with.
former res

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#66683
Feb 2, 2014
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
It would be illuminating for you to present your evidence of this claim other than evolution. A citation, or historical reference would suffice.
My understanding of evolution is that evolution does not care whether or not you have been good, Its a process.
However, as an aside, you want to impute agency on it, then you might as well consider worshipping it.
Evolution of morality

The evolution of morality refers to the emergence of human moral behavior over the course of human evolution. Morality can be defined as a system of ideas about right and wrong conduct. In everyday life, morality is typically associated with human behavior and not much thought is given to the social conducts of other creatures. The emerging fields of evolutionary biology and in particular sociobiology have argued that, though human social behaviors are complex, the precursors of human morality can be traced to the behaviors of many other social animals. Sociobiological explanations of human behavior are still controversial. The traditional view of social scientists has been that morality is a construct, and is thus culturally relative, although others argue that there is a science of morality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_mor...
former res

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#66684
Feb 2, 2014
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Back from a hiatus.
My roles here was to provide another POV. It was never to say that the POV was THE answer. You properly called me on the carpet when you thought I was coming off as arrogant. My response was to refine my answer to make it more understandable, thats all. I dont wish to convince you of anything.
Welcome back!

I don't think either of us is trying to convert or recruit the other. Just having a friendly debate over philosophy/religion/beliefs, whatever you want to call it.

This is why I was attempting to nail down yours.

I realize there is a spectrum of beliefs within any religion (hence we have "Cafeteria Catholics):

Unlike many other religions, Judaism does not focus much on abstract cosmological concepts. Although Jews have certainly considered the nature of G-d, man, the universe, life and the afterlife at great length (see Kabbalah and Jewish Mysticism), there is no mandated, official, definitive belief on these subjects, outside of the very general concepts discussed above. There is substantial room for personal opinion on all of these matters, because as I said before, Judaism is more concerned about actions than beliefs.

.........Some say they are absolute, unchanging laws from G-d (Orthodox); some say they are laws from G-d that change and evolve over time (Conservative); some say that they are guidelines that you can choose whether or not to follow (Reform, Reconstructionist). For more on these distinctions, see Movements of Judaism.

http://www.jewfaq.org/beliefs.htm

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66685
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former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Evolution of morality
The evolution of morality refers to the emergence of human moral behavior over the course of human evolution. Morality can be defined as a system of ideas about right and wrong conduct. In everyday life, morality is typically associated with human behavior and not much thought is given to the social conducts of other creatures. The emerging fields of evolutionary biology and in particular sociobiology have argued that, though human social behaviors are complex, the precursors of human morality can be traced to the behaviors of many other social animals.

Sociobiological explanations of human behavior are still controversial. The traditional view of social scientists has been that morality is a construct, and is thus culturally relative, although others argue that there is a science of morality.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_mor...
Nature vs Nurture again. Sociobiologists vs the social scientists.

When they find a gene that expresses morality, I will be more impressed with the former perspective. Until then, I am more sympathetic to the latter.
former res

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#66686
Feb 2, 2014
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
.........I'd imagine some people have a yearning to connect to something greater than themselves. To those people, the next step is to see out a vocabulary to help them express this yearning. Organized religion provides that vocabulary and a path.
If you dont have the motivation (yearning, calling, whatever), then the path is not attractive to you, and the vocabulary is meaningless.
It is the very existence of this thing/entity/force that you refer to as "greater than ourselves" that many of us question. We have no evidence for its existence. Do you?

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66687
Feb 2, 2014
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Welcome back!
I don't think either of us is trying to convert or recruit the other. Just having a friendly debate over philosophy/religion/beliefs, whatever you want to call it.
This is why I was attempting to nail down yours.
I realize there is a spectrum of beliefs within any religion (hence we have "Cafeteria Catholics):
Unlike many other religions, Judaism does not focus much on abstract cosmological concepts. Although Jews have certainly considered the nature of G-d, man, the universe, life and the afterlife at great length (see Kabbalah and Jewish Mysticism), there is no mandated, official, definitive belief on these subjects, outside of the very general concepts discussed above. There is substantial room for personal opinion on all of these matters, because as I said before, Judaism is more concerned about actions than beliefs.
.........Some say they are absolute, unchanging laws from G-d (Orthodox); some say they are laws from G-d that change and evolve over time (Conservative); some say that they are guidelines that you can choose whether or not to follow (Reform, Reconstructionist). For more on these distinctions, see Movements of Judaism.
http://www.jewfaq.org/beliefs.htm
What may be confusing was that I was not offering my own beliefs. I was offering an education on nontheistic perspectives.

My own beliefs are more in between. hence the panENtheism.
former res

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#66688
Feb 2, 2014
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
My posts were about BEHAVING more deeply than others, and I already established that you dont have to be "religious" in the common theist sense of the word to be like this. You just need to be aware (i.e. stop mulltitasking).
If anything, its thinking LESS deeply.
Think less deeply; behave more deeply. Stop multitasking.

Can you blame me for being a bit confused?

:))

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66689
Feb 2, 2014
 

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former res wrote:
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It is the very existence of this thing/entity/force that you refer to as "greater than ourselves" that many of us question. We have no evidence for its existence. Do you?
My evidence would be subjective, therefore you would not recognize it as evidence under objective standards. But it is evidence enough for me.

And, like I said before, its not that I know of such an "object", what I can relate to is how it relates to me, in the same way I know you from my relationship to you. I dont know the real you.

And, I recognize that I objectify this "object", as is necessary, to construct Godtalk - i.e. to talk "about" it, to connect "to"it. Because as humans, we are subject to the limits of our own grammar.

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#66690
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former res wrote:
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Think less deeply; behave more deeply. Stop multitasking.
Can you blame me for being a bit confused?
:))
Not sure where you are going on this.

What is your objective?

If your objective is to know "God", FROM a nondual perspective, then the above advice would be relevant.

I cant help you from the theistic perspectives. They never did make much sense to me, accept as extreme allusions.

I will tell you that there are multiple avenues out there in our culture to learn about this that arent affiliated with Judaism or Christianity. You can learn a lot from martial arts, from yoga, from a Japanese Tea Ceremony etc etc. You have to start from where you are, from where you are comfortable from.

Then as the concepts start to make more sense, you can integrate with similar constructs from the other perspectives as well. Or not.

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#66691
Feb 2, 2014
 
former res wrote:
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It is the very existence of this thing/entity/force that you refer to as "greater than ourselves" that many of us question. We have no evidence for its existence. Do you?
I might add that straight theism never made much sense to me either.

It wasnt until I was provided with an alternative vocabulary that harmonized more with my personal experiences that I even could entertain such an idea - and only with the qualifiers I posted previously.

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#66692
Feb 2, 2014
 
Frijoles wrote:
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It would be illuminating for you to present your evidence of this claim other than evolution. A citation, or historical reference would suffice.
My understanding of evolution is that evolution does not care whether or not you have been good, Its a process.
However, as an aside, you want to impute agency on it, then you might as well consider worshipping it.
Aside from the post on the Evolution of Morality from Former, you can also investigate any one of numerous thoughts on the relationship of science and moral relativism. This is a topic discussed in mutliple hard and soft scientific disciplines such as Sociology, Psychology, Biology, Neurology, etc... Surely you knew this, no?

And why in the world would I have the need to "worship" it? Simply understanding it seems adequate enough, unless, of course, you equate appreciating it's complexities with worship.

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#66693
Feb 2, 2014
 
Frijoles wrote:
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It would be illuminating for you to present your evidence of this claim other than evolution. A citation, or historical reference would suffice.
My understanding of evolution is that evolution does not care whether or not you have been good, Its a process.
However, as an aside, you want to impute agency on it, then you might as well consider worshipping it.
Sorry, you asked for a link...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism...

Of course, there is a plethora of other information out there. Probably more efficient for you to google it yourself.

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#66694
Feb 2, 2014
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
My posts were about BEHAVING more deeply than others, and I already established that you dont have to be "religious" in the common theist sense of the word to be like this. You just need to be aware (i.e. stop mulltitasking).
If anything, its thinking LESS deeply.
So you agree that the non-religious (atheists/agnostics) can be just as focused and think just as deeply as the religious, just in their own way? If you can agree to this without any exception clauses, then I think we can move on...

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#66695
Feb 2, 2014
 
Frijoles wrote:
We already agreed that this behavior pattern - deep focus - is uncorrelated with practice of theist religion. However, non-theist "religion" or behavior philosophy does encourage this type of behavior pattern.
Fine. But I'd like to see you agree that this type of behavior pattern (deep focus) can also be achieved without any religion (thesist or non-thesist).

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