Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

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“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66655
Jan 31, 2014
 

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former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Believing in evolution and science, I would not
consider much of a leap of faith.
Believing in an all-powerful creator might be something else.
Do you see a difference?
But I never posited I believed in an all powerful creator. I pray "to" an allusion to something else. I know you understand what an allusion is. You, of all people here, are of the literate variety.

But some housekeeping here (i.e. to further explain my POV)

If I want to to explain something - I go to science

If I want to feel awe and wonder ABOUT something - I go into worship (or if you are more comfortable with the term "meditation") mode

Two separate cognitive functions. Each has its uses. When I used the word "awareness" I was referring to the awe and wonder mode. Anyone can do this, of course. Its more a question of quality and how much.

Since: Nov 13

Denver, CO

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#66656
Jan 31, 2014
 
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Aware and not aware of what?
That way your breakfast analogy can be interpretted is...
Atheists are multitaksing and not fully appreciating (experiencing) their breakfast
Religous people are more focused on their breakfast and, thus, getting more out of the experience.
Help me understand how that is not insulting to atheists. I contend that I enjoy the experience of "eating breakfast" just as much as you or anyone else.
rabbee: well snap, crackle, and pop, is just two much trinity noise for in the morning. but can you please explain to me, how atheists cannot be an insult to G-D? without using the cop out, that only your being another g-d exists.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#66657
Jan 31, 2014
 

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Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Aware and not aware of what?
That way your breakfast analogy can be interpretted is...
Atheists are multitaksing and not fully appreciating (experiencing) their breakfast
Religous people are more focused on their breakfast and, thus, getting more out of the experience.
Help me understand how that is not insulting to atheists. I contend that I enjoy the experience of "eating breakfast" just as much as you or anyone else.
Oboviously you are NOT getting what I said.

When I said - labels are yours - what I meant was it was up to you to put people into categories of YOUR choice. You see things in terms of Atheists vs religious. I am seeing things in categories or aware vs not aware (with reference to above post regarding what I mean by aware.

Our respective typologies DONT overlap with each other. An atheist can be aware or unaware, and ditto from a religious person. I have met plenty of "religious" people who obviously only go thru the motions, and plenty of atheists that experience awe and wonder. And reverse ditto - plenty of atheists who are clueless regarding what is around them, and religious people who are totally aware. No real pattern.

I was trying to get beyond your war against the religious, and more to what I see as the heart of the matter.

Spirituality (my term) is an awareness of a process or thing. Awe and wonder is an emotional response to something or some process. We can argue for the rest of our lives what that thing or process IS or ISNT - and I am fine with that - but at the end of the day we are bathing in the same pool, so really the differences between our views have to be nothing more than differences in language.

Have to go - see ya later this weekend.

Since: Nov 13

Denver, CO

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#66658
Jan 31, 2014
 
Cult of Reason wrote:
For fans of Douglas Adams (Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy)...
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it, too?-- Douglas Adams"
rabbee: well apparently neither you or adams, have ever been to san francisco.
former res

Cheshire, CT

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#66659
Jan 31, 2014
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
You stated earlier that noone worships a verb (i.e. a process) and I responded that people do.
Then I followed up with a quote from a leader of a popular Jewish movement that believes God is a process, not a person - to back it my assertion.
I never asked you buy into the theology. Personally, I am not fan of that particular brand myself. I prefer AJ Heschel who I quote yesterday - who is less a pantheist and more a panentheist.
<quoted text>
EXACTLY! Now stop wasting your time with mental gymnastics (that do nothing but give you fits) and go meditate! Or eat an apple. Or watch a sunrise.
Ok! but then why religion?

So I can convince myself that I am now thinking more deeply
than those without?

Since: Nov 13

Denver, CO

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#66660
Jan 31, 2014
 
atheists waist too much time, being an insult to all the other g-ds on this planet. but personally i can do without, the stalin, hitler, and obama attitudes as other g-ds.
former res

Cheshire, CT

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#66661
Jan 31, 2014
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
But why waste time knocking their perceptions?.....
Isn't that kind of the whole point of this discussion?

Religion vs not-religion?

Whatever labels you want to use.

I think we're all being relatively civil.
former res

Cheshire, CT

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#66662
Jan 31, 2014
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
But I never posited I believed in an all powerful creator. I pray "to" an allusion to something else. I know you understand what an allusion is. You, of all people here, are of the literate variety.
But some housekeeping here (i.e. to further explain my POV)
If I want to to explain something - I go to science
If I want to feel awe and wonder ABOUT something - I go into worship (or if you are more comfortable with the term "meditation") mode
Two separate cognitive functions. Each has its uses. When I used the word "awareness" I was referring to the awe and wonder mode. Anyone can do this, of course. Its more a question of quality and how much.
If you are willing, I would be interested to know which if any of these you believe in:

1.G-d exists
2.G-d is one and unique
3.G-d is incorporeal
4.G-d is eternal
5.Prayer is to be directed to G-d alone and to no other
6.The words of the prophets are true
7.Moses' prophecies are true, and Moses was the greatest of the prophets
8.The Written Torah (first 5 books of the Bible) and Oral Torah (teachings now contained in the Talmud and other writings) were given to Moses
9.There will be no other Torah
10.G-d knows the thoughts and deeds of men
11.G-d will reward the good and punish the wicked
12.The Messiah will come
13.The dead will be resurrected

I would understand if you're not willing to get into all of this.

Since: Aug 11

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#66663
Jan 31, 2014
 
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Isn't that kind of the whole point of this discussion?
Religion vs not-religion?
Whatever labels you want to use.
I think we're all being relatively civil.
Agree.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

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#66664
Jan 31, 2014
 
Frijoles---Almost 98% of most Jews today, those with Jewish educations that surpass 7th grade, believe or follow any of a plethora of God models that are far from the literal man in the sky that you have inherited from your Christian background.

HughBe----What a totally DISHONEST statement. It is NOT possible for 98% to do as you say when almost 50% are atheists or agnostics. In addition there are many Jews who are into Eastern religions and Christianity, a religion that for 4 centuries was regarded as a Jewish sect.

Frijoles--- And almost NONE follow mitzvot as an response to reward/punishment.

HughBe--- Are you really a Jew and more importantly a member of Judaism? Explain the lack of reward/punishment that is associated with the Rosh Hashanah and the Day of Atonement. Tell us what are the teachings associated with these festivals.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

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#66665
Jan 31, 2014
 
Frijoles---But I never posited I believed in an all powerful creator. I pray "to" an allusion to something else. I know you understand what an allusion is. You, of all people here, are of the literate variety.

Former res---If you are willing, I would be interested to know which if any of these you believe in:
1.G-d exists
2.G-d is one and unique
3.G-d is incorporeal
4.G-d is eternal
5.Prayer is to be directed to G-d alone and to no other
6.The words of the prophets are true
7.Moses' prophecies are true, and Moses was the greatest of the prophets
8.The Written Torah (first 5 books of the Bible) and Oral Torah (teachings now contained in the Talmud and other writings) were given to Moses
9.There will be no other Torah
10.G-d knows the thoughts and deeds of men
11.G-d will reward the good and punish the wicked
12.The Messiah will come
13.The dead will be resurrected
I would understand if you're not willing to get into all of this.

HughBe--- Why are you flocing with Frijoles?
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

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#66666
Jan 31, 2014
 

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"ladies", please remember that you no longer have your lame excuse for not responding to me. YOUR question was answered.

“Act Interdimensional ly”

Since: Jan 08

Singapore -- Home of Hot

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#66667
Feb 1, 2014
 

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Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>

I disagree with your definitions and separation of ethics and morality. I see them as one and the same, and I also reject the concept of an objective morality. Throughout human history, morality is and always has been relative.
Well, they aren't MY definitions. They are the definitions laid down by and agreed upon by philosophers a long time before either of us were born.

Morality is that which is intrinsically wrong, good and evil if you will. The origins of which lie to the in the major religions of the world -- don't murder, don't steal, etc. It is accepted that morality transcends cultural norms. Society might say it's OK to kill, morality supersedes that.

Ethics are rules of conduct laid down by societies or classes (what is ethical for one class in society might not be ethical for another). Ethics are ephemeral, and go in and out of fashion much more capriciously than morals.

I'm not surprised you're unaware of the actual distinctive definitions as the words are often (and incorrectly) used synonymously.

I was away for Chinese New Year and Shabbat -- but I see from a quick check that you guys have been going around on this same issue for the past 50 hours. I'm surprised you haven't solved it yet.

“Act Interdimensional ly”

Since: Jan 08

Singapore -- Home of Hot

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#66668
Feb 1, 2014
 

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former res wrote:
<quoted text>
If you are willing, I would be interested to know which if any of these you believe in:
1.G-d exists
2.G-d is one and unique
3.G-d is incorporeal
4.G-d is eternal
5.Prayer is to be directed to G-d alone and to no other
6.The words of the prophets are true
7.Moses' prophecies are true, and Moses was the greatest of the prophets
8.The Written Torah (first 5 books of the Bible) and Oral Torah (teachings now contained in the Talmud and other writings) were given to Moses
9.There will be no other Torah
10.G-d knows the thoughts and deeds of men
11.G-d will reward the good and punish the wicked
12.The Messiah will come
13.The dead will be resurrected
I would understand if you're not willing to get into all of this.
I'm curious as to why you're so interested in what others believe? I'm sure no one here gives a fetid dingo's kidney what you believe.

Is it that you're so insecure in your beliefs that you feel the need to validate them with groupthink?
former res

Cheshire, CT

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#66669
Feb 1, 2014
 

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Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm curious as to why you're so interested in what others believe? I'm sure no one here gives a fetid dingo's kidney what you believe.
So it's all about you?

You must be a lot of fun on dates.

"Me, me, me!"
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
Is it that you're so insecure in your beliefs that you feel the need to validate them with groupthink?
Exactly. I take a vote and then decide what to believe.

You see everything. Amazing.

“Act Interdimensional ly”

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#66670
Feb 1, 2014
 

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former res wrote:
<quoted text>
So it's all about you?
You say that like it's a bad thing. I do live in solipsistic universe after all.
former res

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#66671
Feb 1, 2014
 

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Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
You say that like it's a bad thing. I do live in solipsistic universe after all.
Perhaps egocentric would be more on the mark for you.

I've always considered myself more pragmatic than idealistic.

But still very curious.

“Act Interdimensional ly”

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#66672
Feb 1, 2014
 

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former res wrote:
<quoted text
...I've always considered myself more pragmatic than idealistic.
I don't remember asking how you considered yourself. Anyone else ask him? Show of hands?
former res

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#66673
Feb 1, 2014
 

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Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't remember asking how you considered yourself. Anyone else ask him? Show of hands?
And we're back to that egocentric thing again.

Me, me, me!

Do chicks (or fellas) dig that where you are?

Here not so much.

But I bet your mommy loves you.

Do you yell upstairs to her when you want a sammitch?

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#66674
Feb 1, 2014
 

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Rick Moss wrote:
Well, they aren't MY definitions. They are the definitions laid down by and agreed upon by philosophers a long time before either of us were born.
Morality is that which is intrinsically wrong, good and evil if you will. The origins of which lie to the in the major religions of the world -- don't murder, don't steal, etc. It is accepted that morality transcends cultural norms. Society might say it's OK to kill, morality supersedes that.
Ethics are rules of conduct laid down by societies or classes (what is ethical for one class in society might not be ethical for another). Ethics are ephemeral, and go in and out of fashion much more capriciously than morals.
I'm not surprised you're unaware of the actual distinctive definitions as the words are often (and incorrectly) used synonymously.
I was away for Chinese New Year and Shabbat -- but I see from a quick check that you guys have been going around on this same issue for the past 50 hours. I'm surprised you haven't solved it yet.
You can argue philosophy all you want. Philosophers do it all the time and never seem to come to much consensus.

I was approaching it from a pragmatic perspective. But if you want to get specific, ethics is a social system (external) whereas morality is an individual system (internal). Morality is based on an individual's ideas of what is good or bad. This notion that morality didn't exist prior to religion or that it transcends cultural norms is hogwash. I'd be interested in knowing what philosopher outside of religious thinkers convinced you of that. Religion merely codified and enforced certain social norms. It you want to talk about where morality comes from "intrinsically" look no further than evolution and the notion that what is good for the group, also benefits me.

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