Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

Full story: Newsday 69,418
Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family. Full Story

Since: Nov 13

Denver, CO

#66658 Jan 31, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
For fans of Douglas Adams (Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy)...
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it, too?-- Douglas Adams"
rabbee: well apparently neither you or adams, have ever been to san francisco.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66659 Jan 31, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
You stated earlier that noone worships a verb (i.e. a process) and I responded that people do.
Then I followed up with a quote from a leader of a popular Jewish movement that believes God is a process, not a person - to back it my assertion.
I never asked you buy into the theology. Personally, I am not fan of that particular brand myself. I prefer AJ Heschel who I quote yesterday - who is less a pantheist and more a panentheist.
<quoted text>
EXACTLY! Now stop wasting your time with mental gymnastics (that do nothing but give you fits) and go meditate! Or eat an apple. Or watch a sunrise.
Ok! but then why religion?

So I can convince myself that I am now thinking more deeply
than those without?

Since: Nov 13

Denver, CO

#66660 Jan 31, 2014
atheists waist too much time, being an insult to all the other g-ds on this planet. but personally i can do without, the stalin, hitler, and obama attitudes as other g-ds.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66661 Jan 31, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
But why waste time knocking their perceptions?.....
Isn't that kind of the whole point of this discussion?

Religion vs not-religion?

Whatever labels you want to use.

I think we're all being relatively civil.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66662 Jan 31, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
But I never posited I believed in an all powerful creator. I pray "to" an allusion to something else. I know you understand what an allusion is. You, of all people here, are of the literate variety.
But some housekeeping here (i.e. to further explain my POV)
If I want to to explain something - I go to science
If I want to feel awe and wonder ABOUT something - I go into worship (or if you are more comfortable with the term "meditation") mode
Two separate cognitive functions. Each has its uses. When I used the word "awareness" I was referring to the awe and wonder mode. Anyone can do this, of course. Its more a question of quality and how much.
If you are willing, I would be interested to know which if any of these you believe in:

1.G-d exists
2.G-d is one and unique
3.G-d is incorporeal
4.G-d is eternal
5.Prayer is to be directed to G-d alone and to no other
6.The words of the prophets are true
7.Moses' prophecies are true, and Moses was the greatest of the prophets
8.The Written Torah (first 5 books of the Bible) and Oral Torah (teachings now contained in the Talmud and other writings) were given to Moses
9.There will be no other Torah
10.G-d knows the thoughts and deeds of men
11.G-d will reward the good and punish the wicked
12.The Messiah will come
13.The dead will be resurrected

I would understand if you're not willing to get into all of this.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66663 Jan 31, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Isn't that kind of the whole point of this discussion?
Religion vs not-religion?
Whatever labels you want to use.
I think we're all being relatively civil.
Agree.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#66664 Jan 31, 2014
Frijoles---Almost 98% of most Jews today, those with Jewish educations that surpass 7th grade, believe or follow any of a plethora of God models that are far from the literal man in the sky that you have inherited from your Christian background.

HughBe----What a totally DISHONEST statement. It is NOT possible for 98% to do as you say when almost 50% are atheists or agnostics. In addition there are many Jews who are into Eastern religions and Christianity, a religion that for 4 centuries was regarded as a Jewish sect.

Frijoles--- And almost NONE follow mitzvot as an response to reward/punishment.

HughBe--- Are you really a Jew and more importantly a member of Judaism? Explain the lack of reward/punishment that is associated with the Rosh Hashanah and the Day of Atonement. Tell us what are the teachings associated with these festivals.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#66665 Jan 31, 2014
Frijoles---But I never posited I believed in an all powerful creator. I pray "to" an allusion to something else. I know you understand what an allusion is. You, of all people here, are of the literate variety.

Former res---If you are willing, I would be interested to know which if any of these you believe in:
1.G-d exists
2.G-d is one and unique
3.G-d is incorporeal
4.G-d is eternal
5.Prayer is to be directed to G-d alone and to no other
6.The words of the prophets are true
7.Moses' prophecies are true, and Moses was the greatest of the prophets
8.The Written Torah (first 5 books of the Bible) and Oral Torah (teachings now contained in the Talmud and other writings) were given to Moses
9.There will be no other Torah
10.G-d knows the thoughts and deeds of men
11.G-d will reward the good and punish the wicked
12.The Messiah will come
13.The dead will be resurrected
I would understand if you're not willing to get into all of this.

HughBe--- Why are you flocing with Frijoles?
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#66666 Jan 31, 2014
"ladies", please remember that you no longer have your lame excuse for not responding to me. YOUR question was answered.

“Act Interdimensional ly”

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#66667 Feb 1, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>

I disagree with your definitions and separation of ethics and morality. I see them as one and the same, and I also reject the concept of an objective morality. Throughout human history, morality is and always has been relative.
Well, they aren't MY definitions. They are the definitions laid down by and agreed upon by philosophers a long time before either of us were born.

Morality is that which is intrinsically wrong, good and evil if you will. The origins of which lie to the in the major religions of the world -- don't murder, don't steal, etc. It is accepted that morality transcends cultural norms. Society might say it's OK to kill, morality supersedes that.

Ethics are rules of conduct laid down by societies or classes (what is ethical for one class in society might not be ethical for another). Ethics are ephemeral, and go in and out of fashion much more capriciously than morals.

I'm not surprised you're unaware of the actual distinctive definitions as the words are often (and incorrectly) used synonymously.

I was away for Chinese New Year and Shabbat -- but I see from a quick check that you guys have been going around on this same issue for the past 50 hours. I'm surprised you haven't solved it yet.

“Act Interdimensional ly”

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#66668 Feb 1, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
If you are willing, I would be interested to know which if any of these you believe in:
1.G-d exists
2.G-d is one and unique
3.G-d is incorporeal
4.G-d is eternal
5.Prayer is to be directed to G-d alone and to no other
6.The words of the prophets are true
7.Moses' prophecies are true, and Moses was the greatest of the prophets
8.The Written Torah (first 5 books of the Bible) and Oral Torah (teachings now contained in the Talmud and other writings) were given to Moses
9.There will be no other Torah
10.G-d knows the thoughts and deeds of men
11.G-d will reward the good and punish the wicked
12.The Messiah will come
13.The dead will be resurrected
I would understand if you're not willing to get into all of this.
I'm curious as to why you're so interested in what others believe? I'm sure no one here gives a fetid dingo's kidney what you believe.

Is it that you're so insecure in your beliefs that you feel the need to validate them with groupthink?
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66669 Feb 1, 2014
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm curious as to why you're so interested in what others believe? I'm sure no one here gives a fetid dingo's kidney what you believe.
So it's all about you?

You must be a lot of fun on dates.

"Me, me, me!"
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
Is it that you're so insecure in your beliefs that you feel the need to validate them with groupthink?
Exactly. I take a vote and then decide what to believe.

You see everything. Amazing.

“Act Interdimensional ly”

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#66670 Feb 1, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
So it's all about you?
You say that like it's a bad thing. I do live in solipsistic universe after all.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66671 Feb 1, 2014
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
You say that like it's a bad thing. I do live in solipsistic universe after all.
Perhaps egocentric would be more on the mark for you.

I've always considered myself more pragmatic than idealistic.

But still very curious.

“Act Interdimensional ly”

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#66672 Feb 1, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text
...I've always considered myself more pragmatic than idealistic.
I don't remember asking how you considered yourself. Anyone else ask him? Show of hands?
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66673 Feb 1, 2014
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't remember asking how you considered yourself. Anyone else ask him? Show of hands?
And we're back to that egocentric thing again.

Me, me, me!

Do chicks (or fellas) dig that where you are?

Here not so much.

But I bet your mommy loves you.

Do you yell upstairs to her when you want a sammitch?

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66674 Feb 1, 2014
Rick Moss wrote:
Well, they aren't MY definitions. They are the definitions laid down by and agreed upon by philosophers a long time before either of us were born.
Morality is that which is intrinsically wrong, good and evil if you will. The origins of which lie to the in the major religions of the world -- don't murder, don't steal, etc. It is accepted that morality transcends cultural norms. Society might say it's OK to kill, morality supersedes that.
Ethics are rules of conduct laid down by societies or classes (what is ethical for one class in society might not be ethical for another). Ethics are ephemeral, and go in and out of fashion much more capriciously than morals.
I'm not surprised you're unaware of the actual distinctive definitions as the words are often (and incorrectly) used synonymously.
I was away for Chinese New Year and Shabbat -- but I see from a quick check that you guys have been going around on this same issue for the past 50 hours. I'm surprised you haven't solved it yet.
You can argue philosophy all you want. Philosophers do it all the time and never seem to come to much consensus.

I was approaching it from a pragmatic perspective. But if you want to get specific, ethics is a social system (external) whereas morality is an individual system (internal). Morality is based on an individual's ideas of what is good or bad. This notion that morality didn't exist prior to religion or that it transcends cultural norms is hogwash. I'd be interested in knowing what philosopher outside of religious thinkers convinced you of that. Religion merely codified and enforced certain social norms. It you want to talk about where morality comes from "intrinsically" look no further than evolution and the notion that what is good for the group, also benefits me.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66675 Feb 2, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
This notion that morality didn't exist prior to religion or that it transcends cultural norms is hogwash.

I'd be interested in knowing what philosopher outside of religious thinkers convinced you of that. Religion merely codified and enforced certain social norms. It you want to talk about where morality comes from "intrinsically" look no further than evolution and the notion that what is good for the group, also benefits me.
It would be illuminating for you to present your evidence of this claim other than evolution. A citation, or historical reference would suffice.

My understanding of evolution is that evolution does not care whether or not you have been good, Its a process.

However, as an aside, you want to impute agency on it, then you might as well consider worshipping it.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66676 Feb 2, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Isn't that kind of the whole point of this discussion?
Religion vs not-religion?
Whatever labels you want to use.
I think we're all being relatively civil.
Back from a hiatus.

My roles here was to provide another POV. It was never to say that the POV was THE answer. You properly called me on the carpet when you thought I was coming off as arrogant. My response was to refine my answer to make it more understandable, thats all. I dont wish to convince you of anything.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66677 Feb 2, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
You stated earlier that noone worships a verb (i.e. a process) and I responded that people do.
Then I followed up with a quote from a leader of a popular Jewish movement that believes God is a process, not a person - to back it my assertion.
I never asked you buy into the theology. Personally, I am not fan of that particular brand myself. I prefer AJ Heschel who I quote yesterday - who is less a pantheist and more a panentheist.
<quoted text>
EXACTLY! Now stop wasting your time with mental gymnastics (that do nothing but give you fits) and go meditate! Or eat an apple. Or watch a sunrise.
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Ok! but then why religion?
So I can convince myself that I am now thinking more deeply
than those without?
"why religion"?

Its up to you to flesh out an answer to this - not me - I am not here to convince you to join a religion. That would be inauthentic for you. You have to figure it out for yourself on your terms.

I'd imagine some people have a yearning to connect to something greater than themselves. To those people, the next step is to seek out a vocabulary to help them express this yearning. Organized religion provides that vocabulary and a path.

If you dont have the motivation (yearning, calling, whatever), then the path is not attractive to you, and the vocabulary is meaningless.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Pinos Altos Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
WNMU students graduate from Police Academy (Jun '10) Sat Really 8
To ban or not to ban - the future of plastic ba... Sat Really 12
Black Range Artist plan plein air show Sep 18 I love the southwest 1
Grant Co.---rotten corner of NM (Sep '11) Sep 17 Insect Trust 30
Dr. Twana Sparks (Dec '09) Sep 11 FEDUPw-dumb-mean-... 45
Their view: No clear gain in dispute over Falkl... (Mar '10) Sep 7 Tony 608
Mimbres Valley woman still missing Sep 5 Raquel Placencio 7
•••

Flash Flood Watch for Grant County was issued at September 22 at 4:24AM MDT

•••
•••
•••

Pinos Altos Jobs

•••
•••
•••

Pinos Altos People Search

Addresses and phone numbers for FREE

•••

Pinos Altos News, Events & Info

Click for news, events and info in Pinos Altos
•••

Personal Finance

Mortgages [ See current mortgage rates ]
•••