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Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66643 Jan 31, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
To me its not about the thinking. I THOUGHT I made that clear, when I said we create God because we need a "a" to relate to.
Its about the experiencing.
If an atheists experiences life/god/nature/consciousness as focused and deeply as a religious person, then as far as I am concerned they win the Kewpie doll (nod to FR) too.
There are two types of people out there - simplistically. Those that are aware, and those that are not. How you want to label them is your business.
But you made some very specific statements that attributed the following qualities to the religious/spiritual (implying they are missing from the agnostic/atheist)...

MORE holistic....
DEEPER sense of experience...
MORE focused...

Now you're backtracking a bit and saying If an atheists experiences life/god/nature/consciousness as focused and deeply as a religious person, then as far as I am concerned they win the Kewpie doll

So do you now agree that a non-religious/non-spiritual person can experience life just as holistically, deeply and well focused as a religious/spiritual person?

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66644 Jan 31, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I never posited there were fairies, NOR a god in the way you are fighting against
And if there was, and someone believes that they saw it, who are we to doubt it?
Like my comment to FOR, I dont get why you keep fighting a straw battle.
The point of the quote was not in denying what other people think they see, but rather, it was to highlight that the garden can be enjoyed with or without the presence of fairies. The fairies, in essence, become unnecessary to the enjoyment of the garden.

And I'm sure this goes without saying, but I do believe people THINK they see fairies. It's the actual fairies I don't believe in, nor do I need to in order to have a finer appreciation (experience) of the garden.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66645 Jan 31, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
But you made some very specific statements that attributed the following qualities to the religious/spiritual (implying they are missing from the agnostic/atheist)...
MORE holistic....
DEEPER sense of experience...
MORE focused...
Now you're backtracking a bit and saying If an atheists experiences life/god/nature/consciousness as focused and deeply as a religious person, then as far as I am concerned they win the Kewpie doll
So do you now agree that a non-religious/non-spiritual person can experience life just as holistically, deeply and well focused as a religious/spiritual person?
I believe I addressed that by saying there were 2 types of people (simplistically), aware and not aware. What you want to label them is your business.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66646 Jan 31, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
The point of the quote was not in denying what other people think they see, but rather, it was to highlight that the garden can be enjoyed with or without the presence of fairies. The fairies, in essence, become unnecessary to the enjoyment of the garden.

And I'm sure this goes without saying, but I do believe people THINK they see fairies. It's the actual fairies I don't believe in, nor do I need to in order to have a finer appreciation (experience) of the garden.
But why waste time knocking their perceptions?

ANd whoa re you to tell people what is and what is not necessary to their enjoyment. I think to be more intellectually honest, what you SHOULD say is that to you, the fairies, in essence, become unnecessary to the enjoyment of the garden.

Furthermore, in theory, if I provided a technique to increase your enjoyment AND increasing your enjoyment was a strong value of yours, why wouldnt you try the technique?

The point being is some people want more, and some people are happy with what they have. You dont understand the drive to want more (i,e, increase your enjoyment), thats your deal. But other people are different.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66647 Jan 31, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Any when you say "Everything Is God" - then how can anyone really argue with that?
http://books.google.com/books/about/Everythin...

"....We usually think of God as an entity entirely separate from us. Hasidic Jews and Kabbalists (along with practitioners of some other spiritual traditions) have long asserted that God is not separate from us at all.

In this nondual view, everyone and everything manifests God. Once considered a radical, mystical idea, the concept and spiritual practice of nondual Judaism is increasingly influencing mainstream Judaism—in sermons, seminars, prayer books, and meditation practices..."
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66648 Jan 31, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Neil deGrasse Tyson's response to the question "What is the most astounding fact you can share with us about the Universe?"
http://youtu.be/9D05ej8u-gU
Can you listen to his words and tell me that Atheists/Agnostics think less deeply, less holistically, less focused than a religious/spiritual person?
Good stuff!

A hell of a lot more interesting (and awe-inspiring) than going somewhere every weekend to sit with others and contemplate one's navel.

But wait! I used the word "awe" so Frijoles will say I'm religious!

:))
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66649 Jan 31, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
You keep moving this back into an argument. I dont get it why you are having the need to do this.
All I was doing was reflecting back you the limits of language and logic to be fair.
Then providing other ways to look at it. You dont have BELIEVE in the other ways. But I am describing them, as per your request. None of the other ways preclude your way.
No goal posts. No game. No winning.
I'm engaged in a search for rational thought.

We are having a give and take, whatever you want to call it.

You post, I respond as best I can.

I accept that you have no response.

Since: Nov 13

Denver, CO

#66650 Jan 31, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
Humanist/Philosopher Paul Kurtz on the Meaning of Life...
http://youtu.be/dnYJLWdFHaY
rabbee: well that is the problem with his paganism, everyone making up their own definition of life. like stalin, hitler, jack the ripper, nero, obama, and ted bundy also did. in the idea of making yourself, more important than G-D. and having to many, point of origins for your alleged truth. shall only result in, diverse hostilities on earth. neither jews, christians, buddhist, atheist, pagans or other muslims, all worship the same g-d/s. and you should be really, concerned about those other subtle talking g-ds divisions in the world. as long as you do not have one true focal point, you shall all be untruly divided truly.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66651 Jan 31, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Its impossible to sense with anything other than the biology one has.
I also believe in evolution and science. So what?
You keep looking for contradictions.
Believing in evolution and science, I would not
consider much of a leap of faith.

Believing in an all-powerful creator might be something else.

Do you see a difference?

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66652 Jan 31, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I believe I addressed that by saying there were 2 types of people (simplistically), aware and not aware. What you want to label them is your business.
Aware and not aware of what?

That way your breakfast analogy can be interpretted is...

Atheists are multitaksing and not fully appreciating (experiencing) their breakfast

Religous people are more focused on their breakfast and, thus, getting more out of the experience.

Help me understand how that is not insulting to atheists. I contend that I enjoy the experience of "eating breakfast" just as much as you or anyone else.

Since: Nov 13

Denver, CO

#66653 Jan 31, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Its impossible to sense with anything other than the biology one has.
I also believe in evolution and science. So what?
You keep looking for contradictions.
rabbee: it would be nicer, to G-D. if you believed, in G-D. instead of all the fecal matter, from the subtle talking critters of the field. and deluding you with their, antiG-D intentions as other g-ds. but these self manufactured other g-ds, only add you your being confused. in their attempts to alter your focal point, and concentrating the false light of many in a very destructive way. and the ;last thing we need, is diverse religions trying to burn each other with their own magnifying glass religiously.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66654 Jan 31, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
But why waste time knocking their perceptions?
It's possible that I was knocking their perceptions, though I don't recall doing so. Could you point me to an example?
Frijoles wrote:
ANd whoa re you to tell people what is and what is not necessary to their enjoyment.
Again, I don't recall specifically telling anyone what is and what is not necessary to THEIR enjoyment. Questioning a practice is not the same as telling someone to do or not do something.
Frijoles wrote:
I think to be more intellectually honest, what you SHOULD say is that to you, the fairies, in essence, become unnecessary to the enjoyment of the garden.
I believe I said exactly that.
Frijoles wrote:
Furthermore, in theory, if I provided a technique to increase your enjoyment AND increasing your enjoyment was a strong value of yours, why wouldnt you try the technique?
Who said I wouldn't? That's not the issue. The issue is that you assume (through your analogy) that those who don't employ your technique are at a disadvantage when it comes to enjoyment of an experience.
Frijoles wrote:
The point being is some people want more, and some people are happy with what they have. You dont understand the drive to want more (i,e, increase your enjoyment), thats your deal. But other people are different.
So because I don't subscribe to your "technique", I don't have the drive to want more? I'm really not trying to put words into your mouth, but your wording is difficult to swallow.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66655 Jan 31, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Believing in evolution and science, I would not
consider much of a leap of faith.
Believing in an all-powerful creator might be something else.
Do you see a difference?
But I never posited I believed in an all powerful creator. I pray "to" an allusion to something else. I know you understand what an allusion is. You, of all people here, are of the literate variety.

But some housekeeping here (i.e. to further explain my POV)

If I want to to explain something - I go to science

If I want to feel awe and wonder ABOUT something - I go into worship (or if you are more comfortable with the term "meditation") mode

Two separate cognitive functions. Each has its uses. When I used the word "awareness" I was referring to the awe and wonder mode. Anyone can do this, of course. Its more a question of quality and how much.

Since: Nov 13

Denver, CO

#66656 Jan 31, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Aware and not aware of what?
That way your breakfast analogy can be interpretted is...
Atheists are multitaksing and not fully appreciating (experiencing) their breakfast
Religous people are more focused on their breakfast and, thus, getting more out of the experience.
Help me understand how that is not insulting to atheists. I contend that I enjoy the experience of "eating breakfast" just as much as you or anyone else.
rabbee: well snap, crackle, and pop, is just two much trinity noise for in the morning. but can you please explain to me, how atheists cannot be an insult to G-D? without using the cop out, that only your being another g-d exists.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66657 Jan 31, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Aware and not aware of what?
That way your breakfast analogy can be interpretted is...
Atheists are multitaksing and not fully appreciating (experiencing) their breakfast
Religous people are more focused on their breakfast and, thus, getting more out of the experience.
Help me understand how that is not insulting to atheists. I contend that I enjoy the experience of "eating breakfast" just as much as you or anyone else.
Oboviously you are NOT getting what I said.

When I said - labels are yours - what I meant was it was up to you to put people into categories of YOUR choice. You see things in terms of Atheists vs religious. I am seeing things in categories or aware vs not aware (with reference to above post regarding what I mean by aware.

Our respective typologies DONT overlap with each other. An atheist can be aware or unaware, and ditto from a religious person. I have met plenty of "religious" people who obviously only go thru the motions, and plenty of atheists that experience awe and wonder. And reverse ditto - plenty of atheists who are clueless regarding what is around them, and religious people who are totally aware. No real pattern.

I was trying to get beyond your war against the religious, and more to what I see as the heart of the matter.

Spirituality (my term) is an awareness of a process or thing. Awe and wonder is an emotional response to something or some process. We can argue for the rest of our lives what that thing or process IS or ISNT - and I am fine with that - but at the end of the day we are bathing in the same pool, so really the differences between our views have to be nothing more than differences in language.

Have to go - see ya later this weekend.

Since: Nov 13

Denver, CO

#66658 Jan 31, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
For fans of Douglas Adams (Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy)...
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it, too?-- Douglas Adams"
rabbee: well apparently neither you or adams, have ever been to san francisco.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66659 Jan 31, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
You stated earlier that noone worships a verb (i.e. a process) and I responded that people do.
Then I followed up with a quote from a leader of a popular Jewish movement that believes God is a process, not a person - to back it my assertion.
I never asked you buy into the theology. Personally, I am not fan of that particular brand myself. I prefer AJ Heschel who I quote yesterday - who is less a pantheist and more a panentheist.
<quoted text>
EXACTLY! Now stop wasting your time with mental gymnastics (that do nothing but give you fits) and go meditate! Or eat an apple. Or watch a sunrise.
Ok! but then why religion?

So I can convince myself that I am now thinking more deeply
than those without?

Since: Nov 13

Denver, CO

#66660 Jan 31, 2014
atheists waist too much time, being an insult to all the other g-ds on this planet. but personally i can do without, the stalin, hitler, and obama attitudes as other g-ds.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66661 Jan 31, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
But why waste time knocking their perceptions?.....
Isn't that kind of the whole point of this discussion?

Religion vs not-religion?

Whatever labels you want to use.

I think we're all being relatively civil.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66662 Jan 31, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
But I never posited I believed in an all powerful creator. I pray "to" an allusion to something else. I know you understand what an allusion is. You, of all people here, are of the literate variety.
But some housekeeping here (i.e. to further explain my POV)
If I want to to explain something - I go to science
If I want to feel awe and wonder ABOUT something - I go into worship (or if you are more comfortable with the term "meditation") mode
Two separate cognitive functions. Each has its uses. When I used the word "awareness" I was referring to the awe and wonder mode. Anyone can do this, of course. Its more a question of quality and how much.
If you are willing, I would be interested to know which if any of these you believe in:

1.G-d exists
2.G-d is one and unique
3.G-d is incorporeal
4.G-d is eternal
5.Prayer is to be directed to G-d alone and to no other
6.The words of the prophets are true
7.Moses' prophecies are true, and Moses was the greatest of the prophets
8.The Written Torah (first 5 books of the Bible) and Oral Torah (teachings now contained in the Talmud and other writings) were given to Moses
9.There will be no other Torah
10.G-d knows the thoughts and deeds of men
11.G-d will reward the good and punish the wicked
12.The Messiah will come
13.The dead will be resurrected

I would understand if you're not willing to get into all of this.

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