Messianic Jews say they are persecute...

Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

There are 72043 comments on the Newsday story from Jun 21, 2008, titled Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel. In it, Newsday reports that:

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Newsday.

former res

Cheshire, CT

#66583 Jan 30, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
(Organized) Religion is how man answers what he perceives is a call from God.
Religion is man in search of God. Philosophy is man in search of truth. On some level these are the same, but only if everyone agrees what truth is. Which never happens.
I've heard it said that science is about the how and religion about the why.

But why search for god?

To give meaning and value to life. To explain our existence. To make sense out
of all of this. Religion sounds to me like a branch of philosophy. But doesn't matter much what you call it.

On a physiological level our deepest thoughts/emotions/feelings, even our so-called "spirituality" - are electrically charged chemical reactions. True.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66584 Jan 30, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I never said this was superior - I only said that dont discount the amount of choices that open up once one adopts a conscious lifestyle. Its not all conformance.
Fair enough.
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I challenge you to go on a silent retreat - Bhuddist variety - no religion - for 3 days - and then tell me that you havent experienced a hightened sense of awareness.
Same reason I never did my homework in front of the TV - too distracting.
Or why a suddenly blind person has heightened other senses.

Makes sense to me.
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
But that wasnt really the awareness I was referring to. What I was referring to is the practice of identifying choices you make in daily life. I.e. getting off autopilot. Everyone suffers from this. Not just fundie automatons.
If you adopt a healthy eating regimen, same thing, you actually have to think about everything that you put into your mouth.

Why do say "fundie automatons?" why do you assume they haven't made the same
decision you have to follow their religion in their own way?
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
For example, when you keep kosher you are confronted with this during every meal.(If you are vegetarian you are as well)
Agreed. Same as I said above. Healthy eating etc.

There is no convincing health argument of keeping Kosher.

It's just a rule based in history/tradition - correct?
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
religion is not the only way to develop conscious living - nor is it "the" superior way. But it is the topic here and hence the discussion.
Ok

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66585 Jan 30, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I've heard it said that science is about the how and religion about the why.
But why search for god?
To give meaning and value to life. To explain our existence. To make sense out
of all of this. Religion sounds to me like a branch of philosophy. But doesn't matter much what you call it.
On a physiological level our deepest thoughts/emotions/feelings, even our so-called "spirituality" - are electrically charged chemical reactions. True.
Philosophy is a discipline that relies on logic. Religion transcends logic - i.e. isnt dependent upon logic.

You are defining "search" as a mental activity. A religious perspective usually includes other modes, such as emotional modes, as well. If everyone preferred the mode of the head, and not also of the heart. we would all be Unitarians.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66586 Jan 30, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
..... Fundamentalism is not a religious phenomenom, its a social-psychological phenomenon that cuts across all sectors (we have fundies within political parties, fundie environmentalists, fundies within most religions, etc etc). Hence his dislikes are misplaced, IMO. Its fundies that should be the focus of his crusade, not religion.....
When someone questions religion you say "Well you really mean the Fundies, not us."
[paraphrasing, quotes not meant literally]

Then you add that "And BTW, they aren't even real Christians. They're extremist nuts."

When people like me question religion, we actually mean ALL religion. Yes.

And like it or not, Christian Fundamentalism is real, and yes, it's a religious movement.

Definition of FUNDAMENTALISM

1

a often capitalized : a movement in 20th century Protestantism emphasizing the literally interpreted Bible as fundamental to Christian life and teaching

b : the beliefs of this movement

c : adherence to such beliefs

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fun...

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#66587 Jan 30, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
You're stuck on this notion that moral precepts and emotional fulfillment that religion provides need to be bundled up neatly in one package (which is what religions attempt to do today), and that because secular humanism doesn't provide the latter, it is somehow an inferior worldview.
I'm suggesting that the two can be unbundled and dealt with seperately. I'm not advocating for the abolition of religion, but rather for the unbundling. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
In judaism it would be form and content, not distinguishable.

If the law is god, you practice god so to say.
Not just some ritual.
Usually religion-religere-rebinding is the aspects of rituals (the paying part)

note Frijoles using the word spiritual'.

In a month i'm going to start mindfulness. It seems to offer some way to deal with chronic pain.
Right... i am very sceptical, sofar cursing served the same purpose.
It evolves some body-work.
Well i can resort to cursing when the body forms one huge charley-horse again as a result..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66588 Jan 30, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Fair enough.
<quoted text>
Same reason I never did my homework in front of the TV - too distracting.
Or why a suddenly blind person has heightened other senses.
Makes sense to me.
<quoted text>
If you adopt a healthy eating regimen, same thing, you actually have to think about everything that you put into your mouth.
Why do say "fundie automatons?" why do you assume they haven't made the same
decision you have to follow their religion in their own way?
<quoted text>
Agreed. Same as I said above. Healthy eating etc.
There is no convincing health argument of keeping Kosher.
It's just a rule based in history/tradition - correct?
<quoted text>
Ok
Fundie automatons - I was trying to use the language you were more familiar with.

Kosher: But I was never arguing that you should keep kosher.
I have my reasons to follow the mitzvot (doesnt really matter which mitzvot in particular - its the same reason), I dont expect you to adopt my reasons. But to put it simplistically, my theology is that mitzvot are opportunities to realize a spiritual connection. And they have practical benefits, as any spiritual practice might have.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66589 Jan 30, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
I never said secular humanism or the highway. But I am trying to make the point that secular humanism, as a guide to moral behavior, transends religion.
Depends what you mean by transcend. Can you distill secular ethics out of a religious system? Obviously so. In the past I have even provided a link to Humanistic Judaism as an example of this.

But as I said before, its not for everyone. Some people want the whole deal, the heart and the head, and for them, participation in the religion is desirable. Others live in their head and dont see the point. Obviously you are on the latter side.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66590 Jan 30, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
I get it that you prefer to have your "products" bundled and that you see an up-side to that. I, on the other hand, assert that bundling them has certain negative side effects that wouldn't exist otherwise.
I think we've beaten this horse to death...
Rick put it best - for every case of negative side effect you cite, someone can cite a negative side effect from secularism. It boils down to people, not ideologies.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66591 Jan 30, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
When someone questions religion you say "Well you really mean the Fundies, not us."
[paraphrasing, quotes not meant literally]
Then you add that "And BTW, they aren't even real Christians. They're extremist nuts."
When people like me question religion, we actually mean ALL religion. Yes.
And like it or not, Christian Fundamentalism is real, and yes, it's a religious movement.
Definition of FUNDAMENTALISM
1
a often capitalized : a movement in 20th century Protestantism emphasizing the literally interpreted Bible as fundamental to Christian life and teaching
b : the beliefs of this movement
c : adherence to such beliefs
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fun...
this is bit of a red herring because it is tangential to the discussion, IMO. I use the Fundie label because it shows I am addressing the extreme and not the religion itself.

I dont think many Christians label themselves as "fundamentalists" (in my experience). Baptists, Born Again, Biblical Christians, etc etc are the labels I am more familiar with

But I think EVERY religion has their extremes. What I mean by that are those groups who follow their text or leaders literally, and as such tend to have control issues and prejudices.

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#66592 Jan 30, 2014
The fundies questioned sofar about their motives and awareness and acceptance are not forthcoming with insight.

On the whole they appear clueless as to why they believe what they believe.(also in reading skills. literal interpretation serves large.)
Or rather how they even got to the point they are now.

I found that quite amazing, but stopped exploring since they showed frustration or provided long quotes of often contradictory statements.
(Which they did not notice)

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66593 Jan 30, 2014
MAAT wrote:
<quoted text>
In judaism it would be form and content, not distinguishable.


Thats the part most seculars and those with an individualist Christian background dont get. Its the exact OPPOSITE to how they understand religion.
MAAT wrote:
<quoted text>In a month i'm going to start mindfulness. It seems to offer some way to deal with chronic pain.
Right... i am very sceptical, sofar cursing served the same purpose.
It evolves some body-work.
Well i can resort to cursing when the body forms one huge charley-horse again as a result..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness
Read books by Jack Kornfield and John Kabat Zinn- they are tailored to pain
More importantly, find a teacher. Sometimes when you start this work, its gets worse and a guide is useful.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66594 Jan 30, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Philosophy is a discipline that relies on logic. Religion transcends logic - i.e. isnt dependent upon logic.
You are defining "search" as a mental activity. A religious perspective usually includes other modes, such as emotional modes, as well. If everyone preferred the mode of the head, and not also of the heart. we would all be Unitarians.
Wrong. Logic is only one branch of philosophy.

phi·los·o·phy noun \f&#601;-&#712;lä-s( &#601;-)f&#275;\

: the study of ideas about knowledge, truth, the nature and meaning of life, etc.

: a particular set of ideas about knowledge, truth, the nature and meaning of life, etc.

: a set of ideas about how to do something or how to live

Sounds a lot like religion - no? "nature and meaning of life" etc

Search is a mental activity. So are affairs of the heart to which you refer. What other organ
did you have in mind?(And keep this rated G)

All your emotionality (and mine) take place in our brains.

Do you disagree?

What do you have against Unitarians?

It's to call your religion a philosophy. You've already stated you don't even have to believe in god per se.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66595 Jan 30, 2014
it's OK to call your religion a philosophy .....
[it should be]
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66596 Jan 30, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
this is bit of a red herring because it is tangential to the discussion, IMO. I use the Fundie label because it shows I am addressing the extreme and not the religion itself.
.

Exactly a red herring. Just my point.

So why use the label? So as not to offend the mainstream?

Or to further distance yourself from them?

I don't automatically think of suicide bombers when I think
of Muslims, though many Americans due ( probably fundies do!).
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I dont think many Christians label themselves as "fundamentalists" (in my experience). Baptists, Born Again, Biblical Christians, etc etc are the labels I am more familiar with
But I think EVERY religion has their extremes. What I mean by that are those groups who follow their text or leaders literally, and as such tend to have control issues and prejudices.
don't forget the evangelicals - Billy Graham etc
I think many of them could be called fundies
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66597 Jan 30, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Rick put it best - for every case of negative side effect you cite, someone can cite a negative side effect from secularism. It boils down to people, not ideologies.
Do you think that each and every Nazi (Godwin's Law) was deep down an evil person.

Know anything about organization dynamics?

Group think etc? Mob psychology?

Everything isn't really "evens-stevens." The dems aren't really as obstructionist
as the Tea Party. We want to think it's all equal - but it ain't.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66598 Jan 30, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Wrong. Logic is only one branch of philosophy.
phi·los·o·phy noun \f&#601;-&#712;lä-s( &#601;-)f&#275;\
: the study of ideas about knowledge, truth, the nature and meaning of life, etc.
: a particular set of ideas about knowledge, truth, the nature and meaning of life, etc.
: a set of ideas about how to do something or how to live
Sounds a lot like religion - no? "nature and meaning of life" etc
Search is a mental activity. So are affairs of the heart to which you refer. What other organ
did you have in mind?(And keep this rated G)
All your emotionality (and mine) take place in our brains.
Do you disagree?
What do you have against Unitarians?
It's to call your religion a philosophy. You've already stated you don't even have to believe in god per se.
Actually it reinforces my point. Note ..."study of ideas, set of ideas". Thats essentially a mental activity.

Religion - how man answers his perception of Gods calling. Or Mans search for God. etc etc
Note- that is behavior.

Have nothing against Unitarians. Just a comment. They prioritize discussions, analysis.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66599 Jan 30, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you think that each and every Nazi (Godwin's Law) was deep down an evil person.
Know anything about organization dynamics?
Group think etc? Mob psychology?
Everything isn't really "evens-stevens." The dems aren't really as obstructionist
as the Tea Party. We want to think it's all equal - but it ain't.
There were different degrees of Nazism. Some were believers, some were just followers. But dont discount the believers.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66600 Jan 30, 2014
former res wrote:
it's OK to call your religion a philosophy .....
[it should be]
To quote A.J. Heschel..."For religion is more than a creed or ideology and can not be understood detached from living."

also.."The Bible does not intend to teach us principles of creation or redemption. It came to teach us that God is alive, that he is creator and redeemer..the concern of philosophy is to analyze or to explain, the concern of religion is to purify and to sanctify...Speculation (philosophy) starts with concepts, Biblical religion starts with events. The life of religion is given not in the mental preservation of ideas but in events and insights..."

I think what is confusing you is not religion, but theology. Theology is a type of philosophy. Interestingly, one has to DERIVE theology from the bible (OT), because the emphasis and style of the text is via narrative.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66601 Jan 30, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>.
Exactly a red herring. Just my point.
So why use the label? So as not to offend the mainstream?
Or to further distance yourself from them?
I don't automatically think of suicide bombers when I think
of Muslims, though many Americans due ( probably fundies do!).
<quoted text>
don't forget the evangelicals - Billy Graham etc
I think many of them could be called fundies
Actually it was COR, a long time ago, who coined the label "fundie", and I adopted it.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66602 Jan 30, 2014
MAAT wrote:
The fundies questioned sofar about their motives and awareness and acceptance are not forthcoming with insight.
On the whole they appear clueless as to why they believe what they believe.(also in reading skills. literal interpretation serves large.)
Or rather how they even got to the point they are now.
I found that quite amazing, but stopped exploring since they showed frustration or provided long quotes of often contradictory statements.
(Which they did not notice)
Much of it can be explained by the literal approach, combined with a trust of oral education.

And combined with the fact that their text has been translated for them. For example, the Ten Commandments vs ten devarim. HUGE HUGE HUGE difference in meanings.

ITs funny how many people dont realize that the text was originally formulated for chanting, and that the cadence and rhythm dictated the syntax. You miss ALL of that when you read it in English in "Bible Study", where it becomes a dry document.

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