Messianic Jews say they are persecute...

Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

There are 72045 comments on the Newsday story from Jun 21, 2008, titled Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel. In it, Newsday reports that:

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Newsday.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66526 Jan 29, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
All of these gripes could equally be foisted on secular society as well. Its not anymore mans nature to unify than to fragment. Religion, sports, arts, etc all excuses for tribalism. And, to extend Rahbees insight, they ALL provide cover for people to make immoral as well as moral decisions.
But sports, arts, etc... don't claim to be the purveyors of objective morality, as many religions do, so I think your trying to compare apples with oranges.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66527 Jan 29, 2014
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
Would a Jew ridicule his own beliefs? Have you ever MET a Jew? We're not hard to find. Talk to your boss, your landlord, your parole officer ... try to get some first hand information on us.
Do I believe Judaism is better than other faiths? Yes, but only for me. I believe that whatever you believe is best for you (and if it's not, why would you believe it?).
Good - glad to hear you have a sense of humor!

And that you agree that arguing about Moses is the same as arguing
about unicorns.

That's the spirit!

But, why did it take so long?
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66528 Jan 29, 2014
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey! I happen to be a hillbilly (the Jewish variety) and we have a long history and rich culture. I find your condescending tone offensive to my people and my creed. I personally have never had to shoot anyone near my still because I keep it locked up. Prevention is better than cure.
And the biblical injunction isn't "Thou shalt not kill", it is "You shall not murder.", People kill all the time, we kill to eat, to keep our homes from of vermin and to survive. Murder, on the other hand is a completely different thing involving the deliberate killing of a person not in the defence of ourselves or others and (most of the time) I agree it's impolite to murder someone.
I don't think I said anything bad about hillbillies/cousin fxxkers - did I?

Never heard the version of the command that you refer to. But you can probably correct me all day long anything to do with religion/ the Yiddish language/ the bible etc. Have at it. And I won't even be offended!

Murder is a legal term.

But I would think that religion (as does the law) takes into account "degree and intent."

So, sure killing in self defense or to feed ones family is different than murder. The law allows for this.

Do you believe in revenge killing? It seem Frijoles might.

;)
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66529 Jan 29, 2014
STEFANO COLONNA wrote:
<quoted text>
Typical stupid comment from the almost-brainless idiot that might as well be the brainless idiot for excellence.
Don't give too much importance to yourself, deluded. I can care less about your pathetic reasoning and hypocrisy.
Way harsh.

Love thy neighbor.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66530 Jan 29, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
the quote was that it made otherwise moral people do disgusting things, and the author was none other than Christopher Hitchens, a drunk.
Very smart and eloquent fellow.

I miss him.

I was a bit of Bush fan and I didn't like that
but he spoke very intelligently on many matters.

Some of our greatest geniuses have been drinkers.

Even Rick has a still.

:))
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66531 Jan 29, 2014
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
It's safe to say that an equal to or greater number of people have been stopped or dissuaded from doing immoral things by the tenets of their faiths.
Given that none of us are able to see into the hearts of others, we don't know.
But you're speaking about individuals vs larger groups of people/nations/armies etc.

I don't that's safe to say at all.

My parents taught me the difference between right and wrong.

The only exception is when I'm buying a car....as in "What would Jesus drive?"
former res

Cheshire, CT

#66532 Jan 29, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
..... Just because someone identifies as religions does not make them an automaton.
But it helps.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66533 Jan 29, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't think I said anything bad about hillbillies/cousin fxxkers - did I?
Never heard the version of the command that you refer to. But you can probably correct me all day long anything to do with religion/ the Yiddish language/ the bible etc. Have at it. And I won't even be offended!
Murder is a legal term.
But I would think that religion (as does the law) takes into account "degree and intent."
So, sure killing in self defense or to feed ones family is different than murder. The law allows for this.
Do you believe in revenge killing? It seem Frijoles might.
;)
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0220.htm
12 Thou shalt not murder.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...

Its the actual translation - not the pop translation you are familiar with.

----------
I dont believe in revenge killing. Again, you misunderstand. Eye for an eye is interpreted as allowing FAIR compensatory damages - i.e. it introduces the concept of torts and monitization - a civilized approach.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66534 Jan 29, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
But it helps.
Spurious correlation. Many religious folk are not cut in the same cloth as the fundies you are familiar with. COR suffers the same error - lumps everyone in to the same group.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66535 Jan 29, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Very smart and eloquent fellow.
I miss him.
I was a bit of Bush fan and I didn't like that
but he spoke very intelligently on many matters.
Some of our greatest geniuses have been drinkers.
Even Rick has a still.
:))
could be argued that they would be even more of a genius had they not be sods

“Act Interdimensional ly”

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#66536 Jan 29, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
...Do you believe in revenge killing? It seem Frijoles might.
;)
"Hell, I'll kill a man in a fair fight... or if I think he's gonna start a fair fight, or if he bothers me, or if there's a woman, or if I'm gettin' paid - mostly only when I'm gettin' paid."

-- Jayne Cobb

Since: May 12

Location hidden

#66537 Jan 29, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Way harsh.
Way subjective.
former res wrote:
<quoted text>Love thy neighbor.
He's not one of my neighbors...

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#66538 Jan 29, 2014
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Spurious correlation. Many religious folk are not cut in the same cloth as the fundies you are familiar with. COR suffers the same error - lumps everyone in to the same group.
Not in the least. At no point did I say ALL religious people act similarly. But you cannot deny that religion does have a major influence on many peoples' behavior and decision making. Look no further than our own Bible Belt as well as the GOP, who've made a career out of denying women, gays and other minorities equal rights under the guise of it being sinful.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#66539 Jan 29, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
But you're speaking about individuals vs larger groups of people/nations/armies etc.
I don't that's safe to say at all.
My parents taught me the difference between right and wrong.
The only exception is when I'm buying a car....as in "What would Jesus drive?"
Former--- "What would Jesus drive?"

HughBe--- His chariot of clouds.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#66540 Jan 29, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Very smart and eloquent fellow.
I miss him.
I was a bit of Bush fan and I didn't like that
but he spoke very intelligently on many matters.
Some of our greatest geniuses have been drinkers.
Even Rick has a still.
:))
Former---Some of our greatest geniuses have been drinkers. Even Rick has a still.

HughBe--- The link that you have made explains your lack.

“Act Interdimensional ly”

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#66541 Jan 29, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
...then we aren't talking about religion, but rather, a form of secular humanism that everyone should sign up to.
But, if I'm not mistaken, I thought Jewish belief involved the idea that the Jews have a special covenant with God, and with that covenant comes certain behavioral requirements. So there ARE biblical imperatives that guide/dictate certain deeds. Certainly, in the bible, when these deeds weren't met, there were negative repercussions via divine intervention.
I see your concept of religion is tainted by Xtianity. Not surprising as you're stepped in a Xtian culture, where all unrepentant sin, even the sin of being born, is punishable by eternal damnation, especially the sin of backing the wrong messiah (just as Virgil).

The Jewish concept of sin is more elegant and subtle. There are sins against G-d and sins against man. There are degrees of sin based on motivation (deliberate, emotion-driven, or accidental) which is from where the concept of degrees of crime are derived in our own legal system. But none of those sins in punishable by eternal damnation in a lake of molten fire. In fact, scripture is completely vague on what is the consequences of a sin in the afterlife, or even what form, if any, the afterlife might take.

There are lots of biblical injunctions in Judaism (613 to be exact). Many of those cannot be followed in modern world (because our Temple was destroyed and yet to be rebuilt)but the concept of Tikkun Olam is not one of them (it is a moral obligation to make the world given to us by G-d a better place if we can). The convenent between G-d and the Jews holds us to follow as many of those as possible and we have dedicated the last 2,000 years to codifying them.

There are lots of stories in scripture about G-d using both positive and negative feedback to steer the Jews into complying with his injunctions but always in this world and not the next. If you take those stories literally then you have to belief that all bad fortune is the consequence of infraction while, inversely, all good fortune is an indication you're doing good. There is precious little evidence to support this theory and, in the scripture, the punishment of the Jews tends to be collective. The good suffer along with the bad.

However, if you look upon scripture as metaphorical, then you can see a different concept. That if we attempt to lead a moral existence and follow the biblical injunctions as well as the moral imperatives, we will be rewarded with a good life. And, for the most part, that's not untrue. Mostly, the quality of life we have is dependent on the decisions we make -- generally speaking. Accidents and bad fortune happen to everyone, good or bad, but very few will argue that those who deliberately seek to do harm to others tend to suffer more than those who don't. Of course there are cases where this isn't true, but, as I said, if we're taking the scripture as a allegory then generally speaking, it holds true.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66542 Jan 29, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Not in the least. At no point did I say ALL religious people act similarly. But you cannot deny that religion does have a major influence on many peoples' behavior and decision making. Look no further than our own Bible Belt as well as the GOP, who've made a career out of denying women, gays and other minorities equal rights under the guise of it being sinful.
Then maybe you should refine your thesis that Christianity has a major influence, or fundamentalist versions of religion....since that is the evidence you are presenting

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66543 Jan 29, 2014
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't think I said anything bad about hillbillies/cousin fxxkers - did I?
Never heard the version of the command that you refer to. But you can probably correct me all day long anything to do with religion/ the Yiddish language/ the bible etc. Have at it. And I won't even be offended!
Murder is a legal term.
But I would think that religion (as does the law) takes into account "degree and intent."
So, sure killing in self defense or to feed ones family is different than murder. The law allows for this.
Do you believe in revenge killing? It seem Frijoles might.
;)
By the way- speaking of the kill/murder mistranslation issue - there are two other related interesting misconceptions

1) The ten commandments were not commandments - they were "sayings". Thus they were the Ten Sayings (which is how the orthodox Jews and other Hebrew speakers refer to them). Note the verse Exodus 20:1 below - it says spoke, not command....

(Exodus 20:1) And God spoke all these words, saying:......

2) If you actually count all the sayings, there are more than ten. Actually they are 12 or 13 depending if you are a lumper or a splitter.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66544 Jan 29, 2014
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
That if we attempt to lead a moral existence and follow the biblical injunctions as well as the moral imperatives, we will be rewarded with a good life..
To COR:

From the Shema - THE center piece of the liturgy - recited twice a day

"......And you shall inscribe them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates - so that your days and the days of your children may be prolonged on the land which the L-rd swore to your fathers to give to them for as long as the heavens are above the earth...."

Furthermore - Note it is in the plural - so it is not even promising extended individual life, but collective (i.e. tribal life) i.e. survival of the people as a cultural unit

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#66545 Jan 29, 2014
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
But sports, arts, etc... don't claim to be the purveyors of objective morality, as many religions do, so I think your trying to compare apples with oranges.
I beg your pardon? How often are youth sports promoted as character building?

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