Messianic Jews say they are persecute...

Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

There are 72039 comments on the Newsday story from Jun 21, 2008, titled Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel. In it, Newsday reports that:

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Newsday.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

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#62894 Nov 18, 2013
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Every religion is based on faith, which, as far as I'm concerned, is shaky ground. You can argue that without a real Jesus, the Xstian religion falls apart. Similarly, without the existence of God, your religion ceases to be a religion and becomes nothing more than a philosophy with a set of moral codes, I fail to see the difference.
TO jump in....Earlier you were talking about the existence of Jesus, and from that the conversation switched to Moses. God is an altogether different matter. Obviously the system is predicated on some level on the belief in a God concept of some sort (which by the way is different than the anthropomorphic God in the sky, and different from the Christian god is man concept). However, godless Judaism is not without precedent. See http://www.shj.org/ , though it is arguable whether this is still Judaism or not.(personally I dont think of it as Judaism, but I would embrace it far sooner than I would embrace Christianity).

JOEL THUMBS UP

Since: May 13

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#62895 Nov 18, 2013
ha ha ha ha

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

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#62896 Nov 18, 2013
Rick Moss wrote:
<quoted text>
It all depends upon what your faith is based. Fundamentally, Jewish faith rests on the fact that there is one G-d and he encompasses the entire Universe. It is very difficult to disprove G-d. The Universe is infinite but physical space can't be, by definition. So, there is clearly something much larger at work that we can see, feel and measure. Does that something, call it G-d if you like, cause the fall of every sparrow and every drop of rain? Who knows, reasonable folks will differ. My own personal belief, which is fully compatible with Judaism, is that G-d works smart, not hard. He created Quantum Physics and Molecular Biology and stood back and waited until we became self aware. That doesn't make G-d lazy, just efficient. Does it say that in Torah, no, of course it doesn't. But, most Jews believe that Torah is a combination of oral history and allegory. Much of it isn't meant to be taken as literal fact. It doesn't have to be strict literal fact to retain it's usefulness as a guide to life and the cornerstone of Jewish culture.
On the other hand, if your faith is based on a man who is your one and only conduit to the afterlife. That faith is ultimately doomed to disappointment. If it turns out not to be literal then your entire concept of what that man commands you to do goes up in smoke. Jebus's good lessons not withstanding, his primary message is, "Believe in my divinity or burn in Hell forever". At least that is how his followers explain it.
My most simple theological position is thus: There has to be something out there keeping the system going - it could just be gravity for all I know - but if it was up to us humans all the time to keep the world going, we would be toast (as evidenced by my observation of human incompetence and rivalry that I observe day by day).

Am reading "The God Upgrade" by Jaimie Korngold right now. Light reading, but basic thesis,(of which I have read others on this topic a few times before), is that the God concept has evolved from early Biblical to late Biblical all the way up to modern, as our understandings of the world have evolved. Therefore it is really sad to still see kids being taught the Old Man in the Sky concept (who punishes and rewards you) when probably 80% of them are already too smart for that idea.

Fundamental to all of this is my view that prayer does not change "God" - it changes you.

Since: Aug 11

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#62897 Nov 18, 2013
Rick Moss wrote:
It all depends upon what your faith is based. Fundamentally, Jewish faith rests on the fact that there is one G-d and he encompasses the entire Universe.
[QUOTE who="Rick Moss "]
Jewish faith isn't the only monotheistic religion that believes that. Xtians also consider themselves monotheistic, even if you disagree. Sure there are some mental gymnastics to get there, but then, what religion doesn't employ mental gymnastics?

[QUOTE who="Rick Moss "]
It is very difficult to disprove G-d.
It's actually impossible to disprove a god(s), though it's not too difficult to disprove the God of the bible. But so what? It's also impossible to emphatically disprove Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, or Bertrand Russell's teapot. But just because you can't disprove something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Otherwise, we should be wiling to accept every infinite possibility of everything, evidence be damned.
Rick Moss wrote:
The Universe is infinite but physical space can't be, by definition.
Citation needed. Seems to me you are wading into theoretical physics where plenty of competing theories still exist, so I, personally, would be more restrained in making such absolute statements.
Rick Moss wrote:
So, there is clearly something much larger at work that we can see, feel and measure.
So it all boils down to a "argumentum ad ignorantiam" a.k.a "God of the Gaps argument" a.k.a "Argument for "Incredulity". A logical fallacy.
Rick Moss wrote:
Does that something, call it G-d if you like, cause the fall of every sparrow and every drop of rain? Who knows, reasonable folks will differ. My own personal belief, which is fully compatible with Judaism, is that G-d works smart, not hard. He created Quantum Physics and Molecular Biology and stood back and waited until we became self aware.
And all of this is based on a personal belief without evidence - or faith for short.
Rick Moss wrote:
That doesn't make G-d lazy, just efficient. Does it say that in Torah, no, of course it doesn't. But, most Jews believe that Torah is a combination of oral history and allegory. Much of it isn't meant to be taken as literal fact. It doesn't have to be strict literal fact to retain it's usefulness as a guide to life and the cornerstone of Jewish culture.
And that's perfectly fine. But I still don't see how that gives you the edge to diss someone else's faith, regardless of how they see things. Again, faith is faith, all based on the premise of an unprovable, supernatural force. Again, glass houses...
Rick Moss wrote:
On the other hand, if your faith is based on a man who is your one and only conduit to the afterlife. That faith is ultimately doomed to disappointment. If it turns out not to be literal then your entire concept of what that man commands you to do goes up in smoke.
The same way your faith goes up in smokes if it turns out god, however you abstractly envision him, doesn't exist.
Rick Moss wrote:
Jebus's good lessons not withstanding, his primary message is, "Believe in my divinity or burn in Hell forever". At least that is how his followers explain it.
Similar to how the Jews must obey Yahweh's commands or suffer the consequences? Allegory or not, the message is pretty clear.

JOEL THUMBS UP

Since: May 13

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#62898 Nov 18, 2013
Prayer changes nothing fundamental in nature or in being. It's mass superstition and a means of mind control that puts the mind in a narrow groove of dependency on some so-called god. Prayer does not even activate a higher range of consciousness in a person.

Since: Aug 11

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#62899 Nov 18, 2013
BTW - I'm not the one judging posts. I'm actually enjoying the discourse.

JOEL THUMBS UP

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#62900 Nov 18, 2013
Typing a critique on the Double Slit experiment and observer effect on collapse of wave function.

Since: Aug 11

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#62901 Nov 18, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
TO jump in....Earlier you were talking about the existence of Jesus, and from that the conversation switched to Moses. God is an altogether different matter. Obviously the system is predicated on some level on the belief in a God concept of some sort (which by the way is different than the anthropomorphic God in the sky, and different from the Christian god is man concept). However, godless Judaism is not without precedent. See http://www.shj.org/ , though it is arguable whether this is still Judaism or not.(personally I dont think of it as Judaism, but I would embrace it far sooner than I would embrace Christianity).
Yes, the inclusion of God in the conversation was inevitable since Xtians believe Jesus to be God in human form. But whether we're talking about prophets, man-gods, or "the" God, it all boils down to that one word - faith.

JOEL THUMBS UP

Since: May 13

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#62902 Nov 18, 2013
Faith is blind unless backed by logic and supporting evidence. Back to the typing of the critique on double slit experiment.

Since: Aug 11

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#62903 Nov 18, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
My most simple theological position is thus: There has to be something out there keeping the system going - it could just be gravity for all I know - but if it was up to us humans all the time to keep the world going, we would be toast (as evidenced by my observation of human incompetence and rivalry that I observe day by day).
Argument for Incredulity. You can't imagine how the world could possibly keep going on it's own (whatever that means), so you attribute it to some external force.

With regards to human incompetence and rivalry, we see the negative effects on that daily. But we also see cooperation and empathy which helps balance things out to some degree.
Frijoles wrote:
Am reading "The God Upgrade" by Jaimie Korngold right now. Light reading, but basic thesis,(of which I have read others on this topic a few times before), is that the God concept has evolved from early Biblical to late Biblical all the way up to modern, as our understandings of the world have evolved. Therefore it is really sad to still see kids being taught the Old Man in the Sky concept (who punishes and rewards you) when probably 80% of them are already too smart for that idea.
Fundamental to all of this is my view that prayer does not change "God" - it changes you.
That's the whole problem with the God of the Gaps argument. The more we evolve intellectually, the less necessity there is for a god concept to explain things. However, since there will always be things unknown to us (it's inevitable given the size of the Universe), there will always be those who are uncomfortable with simply saying "I don't know", and prefer to attribute explanations to a god. The only difference is that god keeps getting more and more abstract. If this trend continues, we may just abstract him out of existence.

Since: Aug 11

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#62904 Nov 18, 2013
The quoting got a little messed up at the beginning of my last reply to Rick...
Rick Moss wrote:
It all depends upon what your faith is based. Fundamentally, Jewish faith rests on the fact that there is one G-d and he encompasses the entire Universe.
Jewish faith isn't the only monotheistic religion that believes that. Xtians also consider themselves monotheistic, even if you disagree. Sure there are some mental gymnastics to get there, but then, what religion doesn't employ mental gymnastics?

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

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#62905 Nov 18, 2013
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
That's the whole problem with the God of the Gaps argument. The more we evolve intellectually, the less necessity there is for a god concept to explain things. However, since there will always be things unknown to us (it's inevitable given the size of the Universe), there will always be those who are uncomfortable with simply saying "I don't know", and prefer to attribute explanations to a god. The only difference is that god keeps getting more and more abstract. If this trend continues, we may just abstract him out of existence.
You are assuming that the God concept purpose is soley to explain the unknown. I beg to disagree. I have no issue with science (most Jews obviously dont), and I dont look to my God concept to explain anything (my gravity theology was partially tongue and cheek saying more about humans than God). However, for example, science can not discover morality, nor can it provide direction, nor can it provide identity - which is fundamental to direction and morality. These are the thing culture and society provides, and ones concept of either can just as easy depend upon a God concept as not.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#62906 Nov 18, 2013
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, the inclusion of God in the conversation was inevitable since Xtians believe Jesus to be God in human form. But whether we're talking about prophets, man-gods, or "the" God, it all boils down to that one word - faith.
The traditional Jewish position regarding Christianity is not that it is wrong (despite what we might think privately) but that it fundamentally violates (at least) one of our commandments. Since we do not assume that Christians have to follow all of our commandments, really, what the Christians may or may not believe is really not our concern (just leave us alone). Our concern is what WE believe. This keeps the judgments, as abhorrent as they may seem to people, focused on ourselves and not on others, and is the reason why we dont stand on street corners handing out bibles to nonJews.

“I'm Hillary's Deplorable”

Since: Dec 08

Home, sweet home.

#62907 Nov 18, 2013
Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel but they are murdered in Egypt and the rest of the Muslim world.

I've visited Israel, they treat gentiles very well. I've seen the way they treat Arabs in Israel, like neighbors.

Since: Aug 11

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#62908 Nov 18, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
However, for example, science can not discover morality, nor can it provide direction, nor can it provide identity - which is fundamental to direction and morality.
I don't know if I agree with this statement. While morality is a very nuanced topic, I think there is a lot that both the hard and soft sciences can offer us, including discovery, direction and identity.
Frijoles wrote:
These are the thing culture and society provides, and ones concept of either can just as easy depend upon a God concept as not.
Yes, concepts of morality can be predicated on a belief in god (for believers) and not (for non-believers and believers). All very personal and somewhat subjective and relativistic as I don't believe in an overarching objective morality. But we diverge. The original intent of my most was not to argue over the existence of god or the nuances of morality, but to point out that faith based participants are not in a position to denigrate the faiths of other faith based participants.

Since: Aug 11

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#62910 Nov 18, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
The traditional Jewish position regarding Christianity is not that it is wrong (despite what we might think privately) but that it fundamentally violates (at least) one of our commandments. Since we do not assume that Christians have to follow all of our commandments, really, what the Christians may or may not believe is really not our concern (just leave us alone). Our concern is what WE believe. This keeps the judgments, as abhorrent as they may seem to people, focused on ourselves and not on others, and is the reason why we dont stand on street corners handing out bibles to nonJews.
Sure. I do agree that Jews mostly stick to a focus on THEIR beliefs, not the beliefs of others. If you recall, though, my participation in this whole topic started over Rick calling the central figure of another religion mythical and my response was "glass houses"...

JOEL THUMBS UP

Since: May 13

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#62911 Nov 18, 2013
DEBUNKING THE DOUBLE SLIT EXPERIMENT IN THE CONTEXT OF OBSERVER EFFECT:

The double slit experiment indicates the wave-particle nature of energy.

Photons passing through a single slit behave like particles as seen in the simple pattern created on impact with the measurement device (screen) when the wave function collapses to a distinct value that's no longer a probability of the position of the traveling photon in a given location which demonstrates the particulate nature of energy, but with 2 slits the photons behave like waves that interfere with each other which show up as complicated patterns on the receiving screen behind. Until humans don't interfere with the process by placing a screen to make a measurement, the wave function of the photons would remain intact.

Photon is a bit of information in energy field, a massless particle with velocity approaching that of c and the force carrier of em force, the experimental set up is fabricated from energy concentrate called matter and constructed by humans and machines devised by engineers to record certain outcomes determined by the hypothesis and so in this way it could be said that the instrumental part is fashioned in keeping with the intent and capacity of the human beings involved in inventing/fabricating it.

So, the instrument gives us readings of the observed phenomenon in ways that we ascribe to it to suit the way of our thinking, functioning and the capacities of our organs of perception. Every aspect described above is interconnected and as such can influence other in specific ways.

Focusing one's awareness at a beam of fast moving, massless photons supposedly often alters the dynamic of the beam causing the wave function to collapse into a particle.

Probably, concentrated bursts of expelled body energy in the form of electromagnetic signals radiated especially from the eyes and region of the brain when one looks intently at the beam generated by the source in the experimental set up could cause the collapse of the wave function? It could be plausible that if one has a sufficiently focused stare, sufficient quanta of em radiation shoot towards the experimental setup and may cause a change in the interference pattern. Experienced mediators are habituated to gathering their consciousness-energy at one fixed spot and so it's only natural to expect that the outcome of the experiment would be altered to a greater extent in case of experienced meditators.

This experiment does not prove that sentience has an effect on wave function but it simply demonstrates the effect of the exchange of energy of a thermodynamic open system like the human body with the experimental setup.

Had consciousness been the influencer of the outcome of the event, then, consciousness would have directly perceived the underlying mechanism at work and would have simply been a witness to the play of the forces of subject and object. This is not the case. Consciousness observes plans, cogitates, reflects, memorizes or summarizes, while the energy field in which it naturally inheres is the worker or the doer. Consciousness by itself is impotent to act and there can be nothing like pure consciousness existing by itself. Consciousness cannot be converted into energy nor can energy be transmuted into awareness. All that can be said is that energy is conscious just as energy condenses into matter or that energy has both wave and particulate aspects.

Now, instead of human participants, had a sound instrument been used in the double slit experiment, the results would have shown similar results with some differences.

To conclude, everything in nature/being is interconnected with both constituting dual aspects of a unified field and that constant exchanges of energy in varying degrees keep taking place within the entity and with the surroundings thereby modifying the outcome of an event.

JOEL

JOEL THUMBS UP

Since: May 13

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#62912 Nov 18, 2013
SCIENCE HAS SHOWN US HOW TO BE MORAL - HERE'S HOW:

1) To be moral, one needs accurate knowledge at one's disposal and the technological/material means to alleviate suffering everywhere. This is real help and so it is true morality, whereas siting in a shrine and praying on shabbat to a savage being called G-d who teaches to kill, curse,
and ostracize is immorality - example, the barbaric Jewish G-d.

2) Morality is all about showing us how to act with care and concern and intelligence towards life forms and nature.

3) Science has shown us strong evidence concerning the fundamental oneness of cosmic existence and so this provides us with a concrete example of being moral by looking on everything as simply so many manifested aspects and as a result by adopting a sustainable lifestyle would be the best way one can live in peace and harmony without exploiting living creatures and inanimate nature.

4) Science has shown us that humans are 99.9 % similar in genes and so hatred and xenophobia should disappear, while religions encourage hatred and racism.

5) Science has given us the technological, agricultural, telecommunication, transportation and medical care means to provide for the poorer sections of society.

CONCLUSION: Only an idiot like Frijoles says that science has not shown us how to be moral. On the other hand, religions preach immorality and ignorance and violence and hatred.

LMFAO

JOEL THUMBS UP

Since: May 13

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#62913 Nov 18, 2013
SCORE SHEET:

COR = 5,

Frijoles = 0



Rick =- 3

(grins)

JOEL THUMBS UP

Since: May 13

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#62914 Nov 18, 2013
COR ends up with a score of 5, Frijoles scores 0, while Rick earns a score of minus 3. LOL.

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