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Voluntarist

United States

#60153 Oct 11, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
You really need to stop worshiping government, and stop worshiping Ayn Rand, and just see the enterprise as it really is, with an objective attitude.
What it is, a group of men and women exerting force over others providing services at the barrel of a gun.
Voluntarist

United States

#60154 Oct 11, 2013
JOEL THUMBS UP wrote:
The law of the jungle would prevail if government is abolished.
How do you know?
Voluntarist

United States

#60155 Oct 11, 2013
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
What does that have to do with the post I was responding to?
But since you asked, there are humanists of all ideological bents. Many are libertarians. I'm not because I believe government, based on secular ideals of fairness, justice and equality, can be used as a force for good with the right checks and balances in place. Government is what we make it. Don't like it? Then make it better.
So you think people can be moral and ethical without religion but not without government?
Just want to know your stance.
And why or why not?
Voluntarist

United States

#60156 Oct 11, 2013
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
What does that have to do with the post I was responding to?
But since you asked, there are humanists of all ideological bents. Many are libertarians. I'm not because I believe government, based on secular ideals of fairness, justice and equality, can be used as a force for good with the right checks and balances in place. Government is what we make it. Don't like it? Then make it better.
Wow I have allowed you to side step the question.
The question was, cant people be moral and ethical without government?

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#60157 Oct 11, 2013
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
What it is, a group of men and women exerting force over others providing services at the barrel of a gun.
Thats more an insight to your inner psychology than an objective accounting of reality

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#60158 Oct 11, 2013
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
1. I believe that there is merit in your "grow up" comment. Those who are children either physically or emotionally, as he is, ought to play with other children. His game is one of make believe and is appropriate for people of his mental and emotional age.
2. There is no longer any fun as I realize that honest discussions are NEVER a part of his agenda. What are ALWAYS on his agenda are LIES and DECEPTION. I am not joking.
3. To most decent persons he would be a riff-raff because of his lack of integrity.
You remind me of a spoiled child who cant deal with the word "no".

Hughbe, the only people who remotely have areas of common agreement with you also have obvious personality pathologies. What does that say about your views? Think about that.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#60159 Oct 11, 2013
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
Wow I have allowed you to side step the question.
The question was, cant people be moral and ethical without government?
straw position

No one here has stated that government is necessary to provide morality or ethics.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#60160 Oct 11, 2013
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
Wow I have allowed you to side step the question.
The question was, cant people be moral and ethical without government?
Some can, some can't.

Those who would be moral and respectful of others will, under normal conditions, most likely be moral and respectful with or without religion and, most likely, with or without Government.

Those who would NOT be moral and respectful of others under normal conditions, will most likely still NOT be moral and respecful with religion or Government, BUT, with government, they will be physically dissuaded from causing harm to others.

Government should be there to prevent those who can't be moral or ethical from hurting those who can.

e.g.
When people line up outside of Walmart for a Black Friday deal, tell me what happens when rules and security are lax.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#60161 Oct 11, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
straw position
No one here has stated that government is necessary to provide morality or ethics.
Correct. At a minimum, they are there to provide protection "from aggression, theft, breach of contract, and fraud" [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Minarchism]. That is indisputable to any sane person.

All of the rest of the services that Government offers is up for fair discussion. As a progressive, I happen to think there is more they can offer. Libertarians, naturally, feel differently.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#60162 Oct 11, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
straw position
No one here has stated that government is necessary to provide morality or ethics.
Unfortunately, social conservatives base their entire ideology on that...Perhaps that's who Mike should be arguing against.

"Social conservatives argue that the state should maintain a moral outlook and legislate against behavior commonly regarded as culturally destructive or immoral; that, indeed, the state cannot survive if its citizens do not have a certain kind of character, integrity and civic virtue, and so ignoring the state's role in forming people's ethical dispositions can be disastrous."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minarchism#Criti...

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#60163 Oct 11, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
straw position
No one here has stated that government is necessary to provide morality or ethics.
Tangentially, on this topic, have you been hearing the bat-shit crazy stuff coming from Michelle "End-of-times" Bachman and Justice Antonin "the-devil-is-a-real-pers on" Scalia?

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#60164 Oct 11, 2013
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>

I have learnt to deal with people of all levels of intelligence even those at Eric's level.
Eric is very low down the intelligence scale and lacks class and has very little decency.

He's also a born fanatic and a rabid Zionist - a foul subhuman type.

But, what Eric fails to understand is that in an open debate his arguments will easily be blown to bits and all his cult beliefs exposed as sheer nonsense and his talk about future Messiah shown as bullshit in view of the evolutionary movement of nature and being.

Yes, one should interact with all kinds of people - refined, unclassy, genetically normal, eugenically abnormal, possessed, un-possessed, straight, gay, bisexual, intelligent, pseudo-intellectual, theistic, atheistic, mystical, wealthy, poor, educated, illiterate, moral, immoral, fanatical, sensual, decent, tribal and crass.

Though unity in variety is the universal law, it does not mean that everyone and/or everything is on an equal footing.

It's a hierarchy with each element occupying a place on the ladder depending on its worth.

Talk to Eric more on secular matters but don't encourage talk on his observant Jewish bull shit.

Treat him like an out-caste fit to be derided and laughed at considering what he is - a filthy, brainless, fanatical rat of perverse genetic makeup.

To put it bluntly - Eric is not fit to polish my shoes.

Anyway, let the riff raff do as he pleases since nothing is gonna change him....he's in self-destructive mode. LOL.

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#60165 Oct 11, 2013
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>

How do you know?
It's a logical conclusion.

How do you know whether a society without government will work better?

What would happen in the absence of government?

How would society look after its affairs in such a case?

A society sans government would imply a bordlerless world with no nations and no geo-political boundaries.

How would you deal with this?

Tell me - is nature and sentience arranged horizontally or hierarchically or in any other pattern?

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#60166 Oct 11, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>

No one here has stated that government is necessary to provide morality or ethics.
Illogical argument.

I would say that it's an evil statement.

People look up to their leaders for sound guidance based on lofty values and to set good examples for them to follow or to emulate.

If the leaders are criminals, immoral, fanatical, tribal, aggressive and untrustworthy, the entire system gets corrupted and people are left floundering for public role models and what results is that an era of perversion sets in - since the herd is sooner or later influenced by their leaders.

Such a society goes to the dogs as we see happening everywhere in the world.

Think before you post.

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#60167 Oct 11, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>

Thats more an insight to your inner psychology than an objective accounting of reality
Stupid reply.

Expected.

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#60168 Oct 11, 2013
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>

The question was - cant people be moral and ethical without government?
Yes and no.

The individual worth depends on genetic makeup and employment of the limited free will but at the same time the individual is influenced by his surroundings - the people he meets, his rulers, the government policies, the national culture, the religious ethos, peer pressure, temptations, financial needs, security, the lifestyle trends and so on.

So, personality effulges due to genes and environmental impulses - it's an entanglement.

The natural tendency of lifeforms/people is to form hierarchies in accordance with the laws of nature and their inborn instincts and so a governing body will either consciously or unconsciously take form in the presence or in the absence of government though the problems will be exacerbated in the absence of a formal government. if not a government, a leader or an oligarchy will take its place. But, nature and sentience act according to the law of hierarchies/gradations.

A person is good when his genes are sound and are supported by lofty environmental impulses.

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#60169 Oct 11, 2013
PRUNED VAGINAS:

Miley Cyrus was photographed panty-less in public. Was it coincidence? I doubt it. Flashing vagina could become as acceptable as showing cleavage. With so many young women displaying their "pruned privates" at public events, it is inevitable that it'll soon turn into a global meme. LOL.

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#60170 Oct 11, 2013
Humo,

Where are you, Mon?

(smiles)
Voluntarist

United States

#60171 Oct 11, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Thats more an insight to your inner psychology than an objective accounting of reality
Really now, you are claiming that people accept government ruling over them by choice?

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#60172 Oct 11, 2013
A person is good when his genes are sound and are supported by lofty environmental impulses.

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