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JOEL

Mumbai, India

#51747 May 5, 2013
Mind-emotion-matter are inter-connected with each influencing the other in varying degrees.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#51748 May 5, 2013
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
What if the HOA is formed AFTER you move in but formed by a majority of the homeowners with rules that apply to all?
Or what about the new owner of a house who is FORCED to agree to the provision in order to purchase his property? Shouldnt that new onwer be given a choice?

And before someone suggests that in that case, the new owner can always look elsewhere, doesnt that owner have the right to buy property anywhere if he/she can afford it?

And furthermore, HOA are not full governments. Residents still have to abide by local, state and federal laws, and depend on real government to provide them services. There are NO cases in the US where a HOA has legally superceded a real government (in fact there is actually case law here in CT that when a HOA restriction conflicts with local zoning law, in some cases the local zoning law actually supercedes the HOA ((i.e. the LESS restrictive zoning law.)
JOEL

Mumbai, India

#51750 May 5, 2013
THE CONCEPTUAL VERSUS THE TANGIBLE IN THE CONTEXT OF DEFINING THE STATE:

If the state does not have a tangible presence, then, is it simply a mental concept?

No.

If the state were to be a mere idea, then the physical reality of a state would not be possible.

We always see that an idea is usually accompanied by its material counterpart and with human beings we conceive an institution like say the judiciary and using our perceptive faculties and drawing on prevailing concrete example of successful judiciary in different parts of the world we intellectually frame laws and decide the hierarchy and so on and once this idea is in place we go about the task of putting it into practice using our physical energies, trained personnel and gross physical materials.

Similarly, an engineer first visualizes or conceives say an engine and works out the dynamics using mathematical physics and once this is satisfactorily in place he goes about building the engine using physical materials. He has to employ his intellectual faculties at all times to evaluate performance and to bring in remedies in the physical model if necessary.

Furthermore, if say we love someone then there are inter-linked psychological, emotional and physical mechanisms and symptoms at work.

So, we see that in life, everything is a mixture of mental and physical workings.

So, can a state be talked off in terms of both mental as well as physical aspects like say in terms of ideals, aspirations, feelings, morale, infrastructure, scientific achievements, cultural patterns, demographics, politico-judiciary system, genotype, phenotype, rivers, mountains, geo-political boundaries and the like?

Yes, a state is an idea as well as a concrete entity.

The idea keeps defining what a state is or what it should aspire to be like and the physical energy put forth via the physical instrumental parts is an act of materializing the mental ideas.
JOEL

Mumbai, India

#51751 May 5, 2013
Quality is inversely proportional to quantity.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#51752 May 5, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Or what about the new owner of a house who is FORCED to agree to the provision in order to purchase his property? Shouldnt that new onwer be given a choice?
And before someone suggests that in that case, the new owner can always look elsewhere, doesnt that owner have the right to buy property anywhere if he/she can afford it?
And the corresponding right to NOT buy it if the potential buyer doesn't like the rules, the neighborhood, the pig farm next door etc.

Caveat emptor. IMHO.

Balancing all parties' right is admittedly a tricky proposition. Which I guess goes without saying.
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
And furthermore, HOA are not full governments. Residents still have to abide by local, state and federal laws, and depend on real government to provide them services. There are NO cases in the US where a HOA has legally superceded a real government (in fact there is actually case law here in CT that when a HOA restriction conflicts with local zoning law, in some cases the local zoning law actually supercedes the HOA ((i.e. the LESS restrictive zoning law.)
That's interesting. I would have thought the other way around.

Grass height; hanging laundry out; house color etc...I thought that's why these groups exist: to create fussy rules for everyone.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#51753 May 5, 2013
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
And the corresponding right to NOT buy it if the potential buyer doesn't like the rules, the neighborhood, the pig farm next door etc.
Caveat emptor. IMHO.
Balancing all parties' right is admittedly a tricky proposition. Which I guess goes without saying.
I agree to a point, but remember ATF is an absolutist on the issue of property rights. So if he believes in absolute property rights, to be consistent he should believe he has the right to buy into a a HOA area and NOT follow its rules if he chooses.

Which is counter to his ideal notion - because what if he CHOOSES to buy in, and abide by the rules BUT the guy next door lawfully acquires property and chooses not to join the HOA? How does that make an effective HOA? I suppose he could argue that his HOA could be geographically scattershot in implementation for that reason, but these organizations traditionally cover common infrastructure....so to be effective they would have to have a 100% buy in, and they do for that reason.

<quoted text>
former res wrote:
<quoted text>That's interesting. I would have thought the other way around.
Grass height; hanging laundry out; house color etc...I thought that's why these groups exist: to create fussy rules for everyone.
I think it is in case of overlapping jurisdictions, i.e. the town has subdivision regulations that say you can split the lots for development, but the local organization says you can not. However, if there is something in the deed, it might pre-empt BOTH groups. I am not 100% sure.

for stuff like grass height, that isnt usually addressed by town regs - except perhaps if they have nuisance ordinances

Its all pretty fascinating when you think about it.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#51754 May 5, 2013
former res wrote:
<quoted text>

Grass height; hanging laundry out; house color etc...I thought that's why these groups exist: to create fussy rules for everyone.
Personally the notion of these restrictions abhor me. But then I moved to a small street and I can see how some could get pissed off at their neighbors parking willy nilly up and down the street in front of others houses.

I had a friend in New Canaan who got in trouble because she washed her car in her driveway. That was a no no - next door neighbor actually called the COPS on her. And they came. Can you imagine?
rabbee yehoshooah adam

Denver, CO

#51755 May 5, 2013
JOEL wrote:
WHAT AILS INDIA?
1) Religion
2) Population
3) Corruption
rabbee: and you. are representative of all three. a real evil trinity, stuck up in yourself.
rabbee yehoshooah adam

Denver, CO

#51756 May 5, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I am sorry, sir, but you seem to be the only one preoccupied with debating that issue. The rest of us have moved well past that, for the reasons we have posted time and time again.
You are living in your own private Idaho.
rabbee: idaho??? oooh be careful there, thats where the more subtle than any other beast of the fields lives again. or you could be, talking to either Khaeen or Able.
Voluntarist

United States

#51758 May 5, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
HOAs are not full governments.
You said give an example of a voluntary government, an hoa is an example.

What are you talking about full government?

The fastest growing form of housing in the United States today is
common-interest developments (CIDs), a category that includes
planned-unit developments of single-family homes ,
condominiums, and cooperative apartments .[1] Since 1964,
homeowner associations have become increasingly common in
the USA. The Community Associations Institute trade association
estimated that HOAs governed 24.8 million American homes and
62 million residents in 2010.[2]
Voluntarist

United States

#51759 May 5, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I am sorry, sir, but you seem to be the only one preoccupied with debating that issue. The rest of us have moved well past that, for the reasons we have posted time and time again.
You are living in your own private Idaho.
I am not debating anything i have been asking the same question over and over again.
Voluntarist

United States

#51760 May 5, 2013
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
What if the HOA is formed AFTER you move in but formed by a majority of the homeowners with rules that apply to all?
Then that wouldnt be voluntary, it is a deed restriction I believe that you have to consent.
Voluntarist

United States

#51761 May 5, 2013
JOEL wrote:
<quoted text>
ROFL.
So, you've proven that you're a double dunce.
You failed to understand my post.
You've not understood an iota of the logic I provided.
I elucidated the issue under consideration in my previous post and in general it explains every facet of human activity using the mind-matter model - mind conceives, physical instrumentation executes under guidance from the mind. Without the mind there will be no materialization of ideas.
Go back, if interested, and re-read my previous post.
You've got the IQ of a moron.
Ok momo if that is the case i will put you out of my mind and you will disapear, good bye.
Are you the type of dolt that walks around with a picture of your grand daddy floating holding a stick?
What kind of thoughts have you contributed here besides cutting and pasting delusions of grandeur and narcissism.
Voluntarist

United States

#51762 May 5, 2013
JOEL wrote:
Our emotional states, too, are not mere sensations or feelings. They have a cognizing mental aspect as well as physical symptoms.
You are exhibiting mental symptoms.
Voluntarist

United States

#51763 May 5, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Or what about the new owner of a house who is FORCED to agree to the provision in order to purchase his property? Shouldnt that new onwer be given a choice?
And before someone suggests that in that case, the new owner can always look elsewhere, doesnt that owner have the right to buy property anywhere if he/she can afford it?
And furthermore, HOA are not full governments. Residents still have to abide by local, state and federal laws, and depend on real government to provide them services. There are NO cases in the US where a HOA has legally superceded a real government (in fact there is actually case law here in CT that when a HOA restriction conflicts with local zoning law, in some cases the local zoning law actually supercedes the HOA ((i.e. the LESS restrictive zoning law.)
Doesnt matter, it is an example of a voluntary government and works through a real contract unlike the imaginary social contract that you talk about.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#51764 May 5, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree to a point, but remember ATF is an absolutist on the issue of property rights. So if he believes in absolute property rights, to be consistent he should believe he has the right to buy into a a HOA area and NOT follow its rules if he chooses.
Which is counter to his ideal notion - because what if he CHOOSES to buy in, and abide by the rules BUT the guy next door lawfully acquires property and chooses not to join the HOA? How does that make an effective HOA? I suppose he could argue that his HOA could be geographically scattershot in implementation for that reason, but these organizations traditionally cover common infrastructure....so to be effective they would have to have a 100% buy in, and they do for that reason.
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
I think it is in case of overlapping jurisdictions, i.e. the town has subdivision regulations that say you can split the lots for development, but the local organization says you can not. However, if there is something in the deed, it might pre-empt BOTH groups. I am not 100% sure.
for stuff like grass height, that isnt usually addressed by town regs - except perhaps if they have nuisance ordinances
Its all pretty fascinating when you think about it.
I don't know much about "absolutists" but I do know a handful of Libertarians, and the ones I know do believe in honoring contracts. If the HOA were preexisting, then as ATF mentions, it would probably be a deed restriction (or the legal equivalent) on buying the property.

I think local ordinances usually address something where they can force you to keep your yard up to some sort of minimal standards. And think any HOA would be if anything even more restrictive.(which I don't think would conflict with the local regs) But I'm not a RE attorney either.(Only a former Realtor and RE investor)
rabbee yehoshooah adam

Denver, CO

#51765 May 5, 2013
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
Doesnt matter, it is an example of a voluntary government and works through a real contract unlike the imaginary social contract that you talk about.
rabbee: voluntary according to whom, the realtors associating that formed to governs it? getting voluenteered into something, does not constitute true volunteerism. when you must consider housing market situations, plus cost and price. and most people in any hoa, do not really understand what they are getting into. and cannot even comprehend, how they are paying double the property tax.

and even if you, live within a hoa. the city or state, will not take care of your roads, or utilities. but you still have to pay the state and or city tax for them. and the hoa association, has even been known, to sell someones home without the owners permission. the hoa is a republic, not a democracy.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#51766 May 5, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Personally the notion of these restrictions abhor me. But then I moved to a small street and I can see how some could get pissed off at their neighbors parking willy nilly up and down the street in front of others houses.
I had a friend in New Canaan who got in trouble because she washed her car in her driveway. That was a no no - next door neighbor actually called the COPS on her. And they came. Can you imagine?
No doubt neighbors can be a real pain in the axs (and their visitors). Two houses a ago we had a partially shared driveway. What were we thinking?!

New Canann is even richer than Greenwich. But I never heard of a place where you couldn't wash your car in your own driveway. Are you sure it wasn't a time of water restriction?

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#51767 May 5, 2013
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
Doesnt matter, it is an example of a voluntary government and works through a real contract unlike the imaginary social contract that you talk about.
But partial governments are a dime a dozen. heck, my College fraternity was a shadow government.

We were giving you an opportunity to promote your ideas as a PRACTICAL ALTERNATIVE to the type of societal organization that has been necessary, and that has been somewhat involuntary, and that has emerged over the last, say, 20000 years (I am starting my timeline with the retreat of the glaciers, I could start earlier if you wish).

You have failed.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#51768 May 5, 2013
Voluntarist wrote:
<quoted text>
Then that wouldnt be voluntary, it is a deed restriction I believe that you have to consent.
not always - if there are common infrastructure to be maintained there may already be an legal organization in place - and how to enlarge the obligations and responsibilities of that organization in most likelihood follows there articles of incorp which may or may not not include deed restrictions.

Eric would know more about this/

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