Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

There are 20 comments on the Newsday story from Jun 21, 2008, titled Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel. In it, Newsday reports that:

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Newsday.

JOEL

Mumbai, India

#51244 Apr 28, 2013
"How shall thy mighty spirit brook repose

While Death is still unconquered on the earth

And Time a field of suffering and pain?"

Savitri (III,4, 380), Sri Aurobindo
JOEL

Mumbai, India

#51245 Apr 28, 2013
"Descend, Let thy journey cease, come down to us."

Savitri, Sri Aurobindo
JOEL

Mumbai, India

#51246 Apr 28, 2013
"... a soul made ready through a thousand years

Is the living mould of a supreme Descent"

Savitri, Sri Aurobindo
JOEL

Mumbai, India

#51247 Apr 28, 2013
"Here in this chamber 0f flame and light they met,

They looked upon each other, knew themselves,

The secret deity and its human part,

The calm immortal and the struggling psychic.

Then with a magic transformation's speed

They rushed into each other and grew one."

Savitri, Sri Aurobindo
JOEL

Mumbai, India

#51248 Apr 28, 2013
"My Matter shall evade the Inconscient's trance,

My body like my spirit shall be free :

It shall escape from Death and Ignorance."

Savitri, Sri Aurobindo
JOEL

Mumbai, India

#51249 Apr 28, 2013
"Whether to bear with Ignorance and Death

Or hew the ways 0f Immortality,...

Was her soul's issue..."

Savitri, Sri Aurobindo
JOEL

Mumbai, India

#51250 Apr 28, 2013
"On the bare peak where Self is alone with Nought...

She must plead her case Upon extinction's verge,

In the world's death-cave Uphold life's helpless claim..."

Savitri, Sri Aurobindo
JOEL

Mumbai, India

#51251 Apr 28, 2013
"A flaming warrior from the eternal peaks

Empowered to force the door denied and closed

Smote from Death's visage its dumb absolute

And burst the bounds of Consciousness and Time."

Savitri, Sri Aurobindo
JOEL

Mumbai, India

#51252 Apr 28, 2013
"All language is symbolic"

Lasceiles Abercrombie
JOEL

Mumbai, India

#51253 Apr 28, 2013
"A symbol expresses not the play of abstract things or ideas put into imaged form but a living Truth or inward vision or experience of things, so inward, so subtle, so little belonging to the domain of intellectual abstraction, and precision that it cannot be brought out except through symbolic images — the more these images have a living truth of their own which corresponds intimately to the living truth they symbolize, suggests the very vibration of the experience itself, the greater becomes the art of the symbolic expres­sion. When the symbol is a representative sign or figure and nothing more, then the symbolic approaches nearer to an intellectual method, though even then it is not the same thing as an allegory."

- Sri Aurobindo
JOEL

Mumbai, India

#51254 Apr 28, 2013
"Consciousness is usually identified with mind, but mental consciousness is only the human range which no more exhausts all the possible ranges of consciousness than human sight exhausts all the gradations of color or human hearing all the gradations of sound — for there is much above or below that is to man invisible and inaudible. So there are ranges of consciousness above and below the human range, with which the normal human [consciousness] has no contact and they seem to it unconscious...."

- Sri Aurobindo, The Life Divine, p.233.

JOEL

Mumbai, India

#51255 Apr 28, 2013
“If you have within you a psychic being sufficiently awake to watch over you, to prepare your path, it can draw towards you things which help you, draw people, books, circumstances, all sorts of little coincidences which come to you as though brought by some benevolent will and give you an indication, a help, a support to take decisions and turn you in the right direction.”

- The Mother (Sri Aurobindo's Jewish spiritual collaborator).
JOEL

Mumbai, India

#51256 Apr 28, 2013
” One may try to find out what is the truest thing to do, but it is not by a mental discussion or a mental problem that these things can be resolved. Is is in fact by an inner attitude which creates an atmosphere of harmony – progressive harmony – in which all one does will necessarily be the best thing that could be done in those particular circumstances. And the ideal would be an attitude complete enough for the action to be spontaneous, dictated by something other than an outer reason.”

- The Mother (Sri Aurobindo's Jewish spiritual collaborator).
JOEL

Mumbai, India

#51257 Apr 28, 2013
"An aimless life is always a miserable life. Every one of you should have an aim. But do not forget that on the quality of your aim will depend the quality of your life. Your aim should be high and wide, generous and disinterested; this will make your life precious to yourself and to others. But whatever your ideal, it cannot be perfectly realized unless you have realized perfection in yourself."

- The Mother (Sri Aurobindo's Jewish spiritual collaborator).

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#51258 Apr 28, 2013
JOEL wrote:
Had my parents been alive and had they seen my present damaged condition they'd have wept and taken forthwith action and knowing them they'd quickly pack me off to grad school in the US hoping that it would serve as a balm to my damaged mind, emotions and nerves. My late sister, Tina, who'd studied at Cathedral and then at Cornell in the US would have also made the same suggestion. Now, there's no one to goad me on in such a persistent manner.
At some point we all have to grow up and take responsibility and direction in our lives, and not rely on others to do so for us.

Now is your moment.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#51259 Apr 28, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
Again, you are using the modern standard.
You need to consider that standards are relative.
I think we're saying the same thing.

Standards are relative for sure. One man's evidence is another man's ancient literature.

But I don't agree it's a modern vs. ancient thing. If one TODAY believes in a body of evidence based on ancient scrolls and scripture, he is holding that evidence to his standards of TODAY.

One cannot in my mind say that he is held to standards of a by-gone era if it's a belief system he subscribes to in the here and now.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#51260 Apr 28, 2013
http://www.salon.com/2013/04/28/dont_stop_bel...

Don’t stop believin’: Do atheists need a church?
There's song and fellowship in London's first atheist church.

But are these non-believers just having it both ways?

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#51261 Apr 28, 2013
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I think we're saying the same thing.
Standards are relative for sure. One man's evidence is another man's ancient literature.
But I don't agree it's a modern vs. ancient thing. If one TODAY believes in a body of evidence based on ancient scrolls and scripture, he is holding that evidence to his standards of TODAY.
One cannot in my mind say that he is held to standards of a by-gone era if it's a belief system he subscribes to in the here and now.
I disagree. Religion is a subculture and as so has its own rules and standards, and internal logic which is based upon that.

Even in the modern era there are more than one systems of standards. Scientific definition of evidence is very different from the legal definition.

Just like legal evidentiary standards and definitions of what is evidence are different from scientific standards and definitions of evidence, some organized religions can define on their own what is considered evidence and what is not, and what the standards for evaluating are.

The problem is when they apply their standards to your world, and vice versa. That is what you are getting at. You dont buy their definition, and they shouldnt assume that you should. But among themselves, they have an internal logic.
former res

Cheshire, CT

#51262 Apr 28, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
I disagree. Religion is a subculture and as so has its own rules and standards, and internal logic which is based upon that.
Even in the modern era there are more than one systems of standards. Scientific definition of evidence is very different from the legal definition.
Just like legal evidentiary standards and definitions of what is evidence are different from scientific standards and definitions of evidence, some organized religions can define on their own what is considered evidence and what is not, and what the standards for evaluating are.
The problem is when they apply their standards to your world, and vice versa. That is what you are getting at. You dont buy their definition, and they shouldnt assume that you should. But among themselves, they have an internal logic.
The ATF crowd might say the same thing.

You don't buy their theories, but to them it makes sense.

You say they ignore evidence. But they simply find their evidence more compelling.

And atheists say believers have zero evidence on which to base their beliefs.

You then say that "evidence" in religion means something else. It has do with feelings and experience. That it depends on whose "world" we are talking about at the time.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#51263 Apr 28, 2013
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
The ATF crowd might say the same thing.
You don't buy their theories, but to them it makes sense.
You say they ignore evidence. But they simply find their evidence more compelling.
absoultely .
They have different standards for evaluating evidence. ANti-Scientific (ignore the contrary evidence). However, they make the mistake of assuming we are using the same system (applying their standards to our modern standards).
former res wrote:
<quoted text>And atheists say believers have zero evidence on which to base their beliefs.
You then say that "evidence" in religion means something else. It has do with feelings and experience. That it depends on whose "world" we are talking about at the time.
The atheists make the SAME mistake by evaluating the religious evidence with modern standards, and assuming that is relevent to the religious. It isnt.

And SOME of the religious compound that by encouraging the atheists as so.

Others just ignore the atheists as being irrelevant.

You got it!

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