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idgaf

Tewksbury, MA

#47025 Jan 14, 2013
JOEL wrote:
Hi
Hi!!!!
MUQ

Dammam, Saudi Arabia

#47026 Jan 14, 2013
saviorself wrote:
<quoted text>
I do no understand, Muq. your own reverred "Prophet" MARRIED an 8-year old child. He "thighed" her before-hand. He be-headed, crusaded, mauraded, and slaughtered two entire communities of Jews who had lived in Arabia for centuries, killed every nlast one of them. What are you defending against the "enemies of Islam," exactly? The right to maurade, crusade, sexually abuse children, and be-head constantly? You do not like Christians, and this is obvious, you would be very hard-pressed indeed to find ANYTHING recorded about Christ behaving in what would even remotely be considered an "unChristian" fashion. That is really the problem, when you get right down to it, for people like you who are fundamentally, well, "atheistic." Christ never killed, Christ never stoned, Christ never molested, Christ never raped or offerred captured women for rape, Christ never really had a problem with anybody, and He certainly didn't set out to intentionally hurt or wage war against anyone. Christ surrendered. Islam does not.
How can you compare a "non Doer" with someone who "does things" (pardon me for using these words, because in Islam we do not pit one prophet against another and start rating them).

Jesus' mission was totally different from our Prophet's mission.

If you want to compare our prophet, then compare it against the life of Moses or David or some prophet, who got things done.

It is "very easy" to simply preach and go away....many "saints" do that....but to change the working system of world , you need people who look other people in the eyes and transform the things.

Our prophet did not only preach, he showed how these are to be implemented.

And that is WHY you people are so jealous of his achievements and try to quench the fire of jealousy and hatred by maligning his personality and character in any way you can.

But that will not change the FACTS. Our prophet has admirers amongst the very bests. In Encyclopaedia Britannica he is called as "Most Successful of all religious personalities"

Thomas Carlyle Chose our prophet as his "hero prophet" and not Jesus or Moses.

Michel H hart selected our prophet as # 1 in the list of "most influential persons that lived in history" and not Jesus or Moses.

I should take their words or words of some uncouth, bad smelling and black hearted person like you?
MUQ

Dammam, Saudi Arabia

#47032 Jan 15, 2013
MAAT wrote:
Just a general observation on the book of Margoliouth.

This professor combines all sources and translations available at that time. With new found texts of f.i. the gospel translated in khfic-syriac as a nabatean precursor of Arabic, we can even fill in some blanks, where the professor states he does not know.

Which latter statements shows his intellectual honesty when appraising Christianity and the notion of ordinary people being aware of books. His approach is to find rationales for the Islamic empire by the empire builder Mohammed.

So his interest is in the first place on the pre-Islamic days and mores followed by the earliest sources on Islam, history of the region, regal libraries and what is seen as authorities, still today.

So i notice that you manage to combine opposites. The mere fact that a much later authorities committee discarded texts does not mean that they not were original and depict truth as was.
I think you should take this approach while reading the book.

They as in the giants did the first thorough studies on the language and went to great ends to get it right.
Where for the believers and proponents of furthering islam these were matters that were not to be probed.
Historic research has always been about finding the exact events by stripping away legends, opportunism and wishfull embellishments.

I suggest you just read the book.
Ans.

I did read his book in the first place!!

And I did not just commented his "pygminess" based on any prejudice.

These people decide their "Mission" before even writing the book.

If they want to picture some one as "devil"….they first make a picture of "devil" in their mind.

Then they start "looking for evidence"…and they collect one piece from here and one piece from there (all from "Authentic Islamic Book" no doubt) and then piece together to complete their picture of Devil.!!

A person who does not have actual knowledge of his mission is impressed by his deep knowledge of Islamic books.

His books are full of contradictions….They "usually" start with what great man our prophet was, his sincerity his calmness, his determination, his steadfastness….all positive traits.

Then one by one he breaks all these qualities and present the prophet as a "forger" "A sooth sayer" "A crafty man" a "Cruel man, "A sex maniac"… what happened to the "positive traits shown earlier"? All vanished in thin air!!

With each episode , they offer different explanation of his character…. All contradictory with each other.

This is the attitude of all such Western Scholars who write about the life of our prophet from "Authoritative Islamic Sources".

And people who do not know Arabic language and not aware of Islamic way of analysis and criticism are "taken in" by their writers.

I can find excuses for people who have no knowledge and talk from what they read in the papers and media…. But no excuse for these "knowledgeable people" who try to Create Falsehood from the Truth.

These people are agents of Devil , if not the Devil in human forms!!

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#47033 Jan 15, 2013
idgaf wrote:
<quoted text>
I've been amused, entertained and at times educated with the broad scope of topics most of which don't have much to do with the main topic. A silly question, some of these are interesting topics, why not give them their own forum? I'm sure many do not participate here cause they see the Messianic Jews blah blah and don't care about the topic. The cast of characters doesn't leave you wanting hehehhe.
They do get their own forum, but there are only so many participants, and when you dilute people among multiple threads, the threads die off too easily.

This forum is like a swingers party. Instead of sex, we have "intellectual" exchanges. Single partners, multiple partners, even if you dont like your partner you are likely back for more after other experiences.

Hows that for unflattering imagery?

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#47034 Jan 15, 2013
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
These people are agents of Devil , if not the Devil in human forms!!
Boo!

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#47035 Jan 15, 2013
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
Ans.
I did read his book in the first place!!
And I did not just commented his "pygminess" based on any prejudice.
These people decide their "Mission" before even writing the book.
If they want to picture some one as "devil"….they first make a picture of "devil" in their mind.
Then they start "looking for evidence"…and they collect one piece from here and one piece from there (all from "Authentic Islamic Book" no doubt) and then piece together to complete their picture of Devil.!!
A person who does not have actual knowledge of his mission is impressed by his deep knowledge of Islamic books.
His books are full of contradictions….They "usually" start with what great man our prophet was, his sincerity his calmness, his determination, his steadfastness….all positive traits.
Then one by one he breaks all these qualities and present the prophet as a "forger" "A sooth sayer" "A crafty man" a "Cruel man, "A sex maniac"… what happened to the "positive traits shown earlier"? All vanished in thin air!!
With each episode , they offer different explanation of his character…. All contradictory with each other.
This is the attitude of all such Western Scholars who write about the life of our prophet from "Authoritative Islamic Sources".
And people who do not know Arabic language and not aware of Islamic way of analysis and criticism are "taken in" by their writers.
I can find excuses for people who have no knowledge and talk from what they read in the papers and media…. But no excuse for these "knowledgeable people" who try to Create Falsehood from the Truth.
These people are agents of Devil , if not the Devil in human forms!!
You really dont think you dont do the same towards us?

Do you know the meaning of the term "Self reflection"?

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#47037 Jan 15, 2013
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
Ans.
I did read his book in the first place!!
And I did not just commented his "pygminess" based on any prejudice.
These people decide their "Mission" before even writing the book.
If they want to picture some one as "devil"….they first make a picture of "devil" in their mind.
Then they start "looking for evidence"…and they collect one piece from here and one piece from there (all from "Authentic Islamic Book" no doubt) and then piece together to complete their picture of Devil.!!
A person who does not have actual knowledge of his mission is impressed by his deep knowledge of Islamic books.
His books are full of contradictions….They "usually" start with what great man our prophet was, his sincerity his calmness, his determination, his steadfastness….all positive traits.
Then one by one he breaks all these qualities and present the prophet as a "forger" "A sooth sayer" "A crafty man" a "Cruel man, "A sex maniac"… what happened to the "positive traits shown earlier"? All vanished in thin air!!
With each episode , they offer different explanation of his character…. All contradictory with each other.
This is the attitude of all such Western Scholars who write about the life of our prophet from "Authoritative Islamic Sources".
And people who do not know Arabic language and not aware of Islamic way of analysis and criticism are "taken in" by their writers.
I can find excuses for people who have no knowledge and talk from what they read in the papers and media…. But no excuse for these "knowledgeable people" who try to Create Falsehood from the Truth.
These people are agents of Devil , if not the Devil in human forms!!
OOOEEH an outright lie.
You did not read the book first.
I know you are familiar with f.i. Guilleaume since i quoted him extensively as well as some other more modern western writers. But if you are going to claim that the professor Margoliouth is all these people combined in one person we've stretched the byzantian to a kairoism.
So You are intimitely acquainted with all the people mentioned in the footnotes! That predate the western writers mentions by others in other threads.
Well that just can't be since a while back you never even heard of them.
(It's not that i can envisage you outguessing my next contribution and pre-read thus during my absesnse. Though you should be aware that i pick up on those little remarks like f.i. unfamiliarity or gross exagerations.)

It's only natural that the professor would point out that some behaviour would be consider contra western mores, though he frankly gave an example of a man living with the native americans and their alien ways, that serve however as an example of the way other cultures think and reason.

But i have not come upon any rant. Or outright polemics as you suggest.

So no MUQ you have not read the book.
Though i posted it so you could get familiar with a different approach. Alexander the Greats story is also not all roses and sunshine. Empire builders are usually not, but this book is about the conditions that enabled the man, a study as such.

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#47038 Jan 15, 2013
As to the duality also found in the traditins on Mohammed...well isn't it said that this is explained as being to serve as an example to all man. So they can recognize themselves in his life and choose a better path.

At least i came across that apology.

It is the new fad to present the prophet as all good. That political correctness i spoke about before, that makes people change texts.

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#47039 Jan 15, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
You really dont think you dont do the same towards us?
Do you know the meaning of the term "Self reflection"?
Interestingly some psychologists think that this is actually impossible.(Apart from a lot of processes that the mind has no control over. So even awareness, or 'I', or conscious would be a fiction.)
Only others can hold up the mirror to out wanton behaviours.
Even if we think about ourselves we can keep on doing that forever, but it would not change an iota, for it would still be the same conscious doing the thinking.
For innovation and creative change of behaviour you would frankly have to introduce a period of random behaviour.

And boy oh boy does that sound wrong here.
It's not as if we are lacking that.:))

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#47040 Jan 15, 2013
Just wiki for D.S. Margoliouth and let me enlighten you on f.i. Snouck Gurgronje, who was by the way offered a professorship at the National Egypt University in Cairo in 1925.

Christiaan Snouck Hurgronje (8 February 1857 – 26 June 1936) was a Dutch scholar of Oriental cultures and languages and Advisor on Native Affairs to the colonial government of the Netherlands East Indies (now Indonesia).

Born in Oosterhout in 1857, he became a theology student at Leiden University in 1874. He received his doctorate at Leiden in 1880 with his dissertation ‘Het Mekkaansche Feest’("The Festivities of Mecca"). He became a professor at the Leiden School for Colonial Civil Servants in 1881.

Snouck, who was fluent in Arabic, through mediation with the Ottoman governor in Jeddah, was examined by a delegation of scholars from Mecca in 1884 and upon successfully completing the examination was allowed to commence a pilgrimage to the Holy Muslim city of Mecca in 1885. He was one of the first Western scholars of Oriental cultures to do so.

A pioneering traveler, he was a rare Western presence in Mecca, but embraced the culture and religion of his hosts with passion, converting to Islam.

---
So MUQ, no more fibbing.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#47041 Jan 15, 2013
MAAT wrote:
<quoted text>
Interestingly some psychologists think that this is actually impossible.(Apart from a lot of processes that the mind has no control over. So even awareness, or 'I', or conscious would be a fiction.)
Only others can hold up the mirror to out wanton behaviours.
Even if we think about ourselves we can keep on doing that forever, but it would not change an iota, for it would still be the same conscious doing the thinking.
For innovation and creative change of behaviour you would frankly have to introduce a period of random behaviour.
And boy oh boy does that sound wrong here.
It's not as if we are lacking that.:))
I am not looking for self actualization.

Just a minor reflection on ones own actions before one criticizes another for being a zealot.

MUQ doesnt even Google to perform this - so he has no excuse.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

Since: Sep 11

Location hidden

#47042 Jan 15, 2013
MUQ doesnt even NEED Google to perform this - so he has no excuse.

(Frijoles does NEED a good editor.)

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#47043 Jan 15, 2013
Interesting comment....uhhh

What i was getting at, actually was that MUQ just has the same tune bouncing in his head forever.

So would self reflection not also mean self actualisation with a twist?

Maybe we should simply tell him not to project anymore.

MUQ did not even google.

(we could both do with an editor, or a secretary friend.)

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#47044 Jan 15, 2013
The jewish definition of faith is a stumbling block not only to R.
I got a comment that i must be stating pistis.

Apropos pistis sophia, i found J. Rendel Harris.
On the (origin jewish proselyte)psalms of solomon and the earliest christian Odes of Solomon.
Written in old Syriac, end of the first century in Antioch, where christianity was invented.

Especially Ode 19 is of interest. Also because it looks like a later text but still an odd one out given the trinitarian idea (though maybe for other reasons). It is definitely not gnostic.

quote

ODE 19.

Fantastic and not in harmony with the other Odes. The reference to a painless Virgin Birth is notable.

1 A cup of milk was offered to me: and I drank it in the sweetness of the delight of the Lord. 2 The Son is the cup and He who was milked is the Father: 3 And the Holy Spirit milked Him: because His breasts were full, and it was necessary for Him that His milk should be sufficiently released; 4 And the Holy Spirit opened His bosom and mingled the milk from the two breasts of the Father and gave the mixture to the world without their knowing: 5 And they who receive in its fulness are the ones on the right hand. 6 The Spirit opened the womb of the Virgin and she received conception and brought forth; and the Virgin became a Mother with many mercies; 7 And she travailed and brought forth a Son, without incurring pain; 8 And because she was not sufficiently prepared, and she had not sought a midwife (for He brought her to bear) she brought forth, as if she were a man, of her own will; 9 And she brought Him forth openly, and acquired Him with great dignity, 10 And loved Him in His swaddling clothes and guarded Him kindly, and showed Him in Majesty. Hallelujah.

http://www.goodnewsinc.net/othbooks/odesolmn....
But other
Gtown71

United States

#47045 Jan 15, 2013
Cult of Reason wrote:
<quoted text>
The $30 is accounted for. The hotel got $25, the clerk takes $2, and the men get a $3 refund.
25+2+3 =30
If your point of this story is to show your inability to reason through a logic problem, you've succeeded ;-).
The points in my prior post stand.
My point is to let you know, that thing happen in this world that has nothing to do with logic.
It amazes me how people can open their mind into believing some of the wildest things, but to other wild sounding things -they just close their minds.
Religious people do the same thing.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#47046 Jan 15, 2013
Gtown71 wrote:
My point is to let you know, that thing happen in this world that has nothing to do with logic.
If anything, your story reinforces my point, not yours. Your story was a riddle designed to confuse the reader. In attempting to analyze the riddle, people tend to go with their initial instincts (much like they do with religion or try to explain something they don't understand). It's lazy thinking that leads to incorrect assumptions. In the end, though, I have shown that it is logic and a proper understanding of mathematics that yields the truth, not some subjective, intuitive experience.
Gtown71 wrote:
It amazes me how people can open their mind into believing some of the wildest things...
Like rising from the dead, walking on water, turning water into wine? I agree. It amazes me how people can believe such wild things.

At least with evolution, we have compelling, physical evidence across multiple, scientific disciplines all converging on the same conclusion. No theory in the history of science has been so thoroughly tested and withstood so many attacks by the unenlightened. You really should make an attempt to understand the science better rather than making lazy assumptions.
former res

Newtown Square, PA

#47047 Jan 15, 2013
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
...This forum is like a swingers party. Instead of sex, we have "intellectual" exchanges. Single partners, multiple partners, even if you dont like your partner you are likely back for more after other experiences.
Hows that for unflattering imagery?
I like it!

Instead of swapping bodily fluids, we swap our invaluable opinions and pithy comments.

Good stuff!

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#47049 Jan 15, 2013
idgaf wrote:
I see truth and understanding of stories and philosophies that people have individually. I fail to see connections with God. I fail to see that although you are all very knowledgable about the early languages that one of you can make the connections with God. I do see a lot of knowledge or perceived knowledge.
I reiterate, why did God not reveal Himself to the American Indians (America being the new world)? There were also many others who didn't get the memo. Why? Why theJews? Why the Arabs? Why the Romans?
The most likely explanation is that god did not reveal himself to them because he does not exist. They are just made up stories. Every culture/society has their own stories. Some stories tend to stick around, most likely because they served some useful purpose for a period of time. Many others die out as they outlived their usefulness.

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#47050 Jan 15, 2013
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I like it!
Instead of swapping bodily fluids, we swap our invaluable opinions and pithy comments.
Good stuff!
I feel like I need a shower.

““You must not lose faith ”

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#47055 Jan 15, 2013
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I like it!
Instead of swapping bodily fluids, we swap our invaluable opinions and pithy comments.
Good stuff!
Like that episode of Fairly Legal were the guys ask why that judge keeps asking them back, and even at home, and get the reply that is is indeed sex on an intellectual level.
"She get's of on your minds."

The judge in question had been married to a real goodlooking stud.
So needed some different stimulation.

I can dig that, but the bit on needing a mental shower too. lol

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