Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

Full story: Newsday

Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.

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rabbee yehoshooah adam

Denver, CO

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#46905
Jan 11, 2013
 
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
Look for earliest episodes of this series posted on this thread, they were about his enemies who were conquered by the prophet.
Now we are at the end of series, before we take up the "sword of steel" cases.
rabbee: being an enemy to someone, does not mean they are an enemy of G-D. any more than calling anyone a prophet, means they really are one.

“Legumes of the World Unite ”

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#46906
Jan 12, 2013
 
SamBee wrote:
The 1999 scholarly works,When were their source documents created? do they per-date Rabbi Raphael works?
I still have no idea what the point you are raising.

On the surface, you could answer your own question if you read the two books. Why argue with someone who hasnt read the books? And in the same token, how can you label another posters view as "good" when he hasnt read the books either?

““You must not lose faith ”

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#46907
Jan 12, 2013
 
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
Look for earliest episodes of this series posted on this thread, they were about his enemies who were conquered by the prophet.
Now we are at the end of series, before we take up the "sword of steel" cases.
A very byzantian reply. Or as rabbee pointed out the simple naming of people as enemy does not make it so. maybe he and the ansar were just out to get their hands on their synagoge, land, goods, tax, trade, wifes, daughters etc.

What Stefano asks for ( apart ofcourse from the valid question whether an actual person existed ):
Muhammad, during his Mecca years, was ridiculed for his confused sayings by his own tribe of Quraish. He was called “shaeron majnoon”—crazed poet.

More of this kid of ridicule would make the person more real ( a drawback if one historically doubts the existence. Though we do not know if it was actually about him. It might be some over the top ruler who's acts and reaction to invasions and killings were attributed to.)

““You must not lose faith ”

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#46908
Jan 12, 2013
 
The rise of islam by Margoulith.
Apropos fire or light, we see, Mo ahmed depicted as a horse with fiery wings, and fire all around in general.
The night journey was witnessed as a literal horse ride to medinah, as one of his consorts reported.
http://www.muhammadanism.org/Margoliouth/moha...

““You must not lose faith ”

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#46909
Jan 12, 2013
 
Chronology trouble is usually fixed by taking some important day to other groups like f.i. the jews.
This book also points to the night-journey to the kuba in Madinat/madinah, which was formerly a synagoge as we learned. But tries to weed out the most obvious made up embellishments but still hopes not to have been too gullible.
But frankly the idea is that Moahmed was an empire shaper/builder by means of a strictly binding set of rules under a higher authority where people have no sayso or free will. His life story got embellished.
Joseph Smith who created mormonism is used as a comparison when margoliouth looks at certain aspects like M.'s revelations.

http://www.muhammadanism.org/Margoliouth/moha...
Eric

Arlington Heights, IL

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#46911
Jan 12, 2013
 
MUQ wrote:
“which prophet used to enslave"
the operative words
MUQ

Saudi Arabia

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#46912
Jan 12, 2013
 
MAAT wrote:
Chronology trouble is usually fixed by taking some important day to other groups like f.i. the jews.
This book also points to the night-journey to the kuba in Madinat/madinah, which was formerly a synagoge as we learned. But tries to weed out the most obvious made up embellishments but still hopes not to have been too gullible.
But frankly the idea is that Moahmed was an empire shaper/builder by means of a strictly binding set of rules under a higher authority where people have no sayso or free will. His life story got embellished.
Joseph Smith who created mormonism is used as a comparison when margoliouth looks at certain aspects like M.'s revelations.
http://www.muhammadanism.org/Margoliouth/moha...
Margoliuth was the 'Most Biased" writer I have encountered. If some one talks from Ignorance, one can discount and forgive him.

But when one "deliberately" tries to distort the authentic information available with him and draws a "totally erroneous conclusions" Accepting part of the report as "authentic" and another part "Pure exaggeration and faith based"....one wonders what type of scholar he is.

And most western people read such writers and consider them Authority Supreme on Islam and Islamic literature.

I find no excuse for such people, because they behaved in the dishonest manner, after knowing and understanding the message.

the "poor" people on this thread can be excused, because none of them know Arabic language and therefore have no first hand knowledge.

But people like George Sale and prof. Margoliuth and their likes are deliberate mischief makers. They distort the truth and they hide the truth and they try to mislead the truth.

To compare our prophet and Joseph Smith is the height of ignorance!!

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#46913
Jan 12, 2013
 
page 50 Abrahat brought the elephant named Mahmut/d against the ka'bah, in the Abessynian invasion of mecca (valley of becca but a.k.a. Hiram and other names depending on the ruling tribe.)
The speculation rises that if Mohammed a.k.a Ahmad or Mahmud, was a historical figure, than he was born and named after the year of that elephant.
So no more ideas of even ahmed being relevant (Guilleaume)but all simple down to earth stuff.
Any god or goddess (a.k.a. angel or djinn) could bring good and evil, so their was no actual distinction between one or the other.
We also find a tradition where Mutalib digged Zemzem (as it ia called in this collation. ie Zamzam)

I love those old studies that were made before they were all told to shut up and only tell the politically correct version.

Age of Ignorance was more likely called Barbarianism. Ignorance being a wrong translation.
Allah did not become different in properties, just in name as 'the god'.

The bisshop on his red camel had many stories written about him. His name Kuss was however most probably a wrong pronounciation of kasha-priest.
Either Ghassanid or of Hiram.
I could allready not find him in the list of bisshops of those days.

page 35 The first language the gospel was translated in, was arab (khufic-syriac should thus be understood), round about the 5th century, in a Ghassanid convent.

““You must not lose faith ”

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#46915
Jan 12, 2013
 
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
Margoliuth was the 'Most Biased" writer I have encountered. If some one talks from Ignorance, one can discount and forgive him.
But when one "deliberately" tries to distort the authentic information available with him and draws a "totally erroneous conclusions" Accepting part of the report as "authentic" and another part "Pure exaggeration and faith based"....one wonders what type of scholar he is.
And most western people read such writers and consider them Authority Supreme on Islam and Islamic literature.
I find no excuse for such people, because they behaved in the dishonest manner, after knowing and understanding the message.
the "poor" people on this thread can be excused, because none of them know Arabic language and therefore have no first hand knowledge.
But people like George Sale and prof. Margoliuth and their likes are deliberate mischief makers. They distort the truth and they hide the truth and they try to mislead the truth.
To compare our prophet and Joseph Smith is the height of ignorance!!
I thought you would indeed jump without testing the waters.
It's still seen as an apology for Islam, using material of the 19 and beginning of the 20th century.
Snouck Gurgronje to name one of the giants.
It does indeed not fit your politically correct and adjusted version. We see that new ( relatively as in Tabari edited material does not feature.) and in the 18th and 19th century Mecca was still a hummock, so much unspoiled, as well as the people.
But the sources are Islamic!

So read and think twice before commenting. You are most probably the one with the edited version.

““You must not lose faith ”

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#46916
Jan 12, 2013
 

Judged:

1

Eve buried at Jeddah. Abrahm dragging a highly pregnant wife through the desert, deserting her, with zamzam occurring.
Muq. Those are those faith based made up stories.
But if you are no longer capable of distinguishing fact and fiction we are bound for a crazy discussion.

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#46917
Jan 12, 2013
 
Joseph Smith (that inspired Bottom...yup it's a funny read at times.)also had epileptic symptoms coincding with his revelations, but also a shrewdness to make people follow.

But reading about the actual goings on in the mecca of the age of Ignorance c.q. Barbarianism gives a much better explanation as to why a 'prophet from a dunghill' could arise, instead of coming from a nobel house.

I also found that later sources attribute to moahmed what was formerly attributed to others.

What is interesting is that the quraan contains and attributes some writing to Lukman who seems to have been a black man that had written a booklet with several guidelines, that were followed in the days before and during and after Mo's time.
Mutalib strangely enough features in the accounting books deriving from post 812 CE!
No modern edited source would ever tell us these things.
We f.i. have to content with Mo comparing black people to raisins, and thus alluded understanding that none of his companions wanted to listen to black men. Or that arabs always had tribes and geneologies, which was not the case.

The people and religion would have more credibility if they stuck closer to verifiable facts.

Nowadays we have fiction and Mali's sharia war and in the Netherlands a mother that beats her 7 year old son to death because after a long day of studying the little mite still can't recite the quraan verses!

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#46918
Jan 12, 2013
 
http://www.muhammadanism.org/Margoliouth/moha...
Just so one can continue reading. ;)

““You must not lose faith ”

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#46919
Jan 12, 2013
 
MUQ i love it every time you get another fit.
It keeps the tread about 'all things Islamic that are hard to swallow' active.
JOEL

Mumbai, India

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#46920
Jan 13, 2013
 
IS RUACH THE SOUL?

1) The dictionaries provide 2 different roots, related to each other, as the etymology of ruach: either the verb "rawach", which means to "be spacious", "to be light", or the verb "riach" which means "to breathe in", "to smell".

2) The latter root, "to breathe in", "to smell", is more commonly held among the commentators.

3) From these descriptions we infer that ruach refers to the life-force that's an aspect of the vital consciousness-energy. The Hebrews mistook this for the soul.

4) The soul is far more complex than this simple description.

5) The true soul is the psychic being that stands veiled behind the mental, vital, subtle physical, gross physical and subconscient layers in the human being and organises these sheaths from its station in the force field corresponding to the cardiac centre in the middle of the chest region.

6) In most humans, the psychic is suppressed in its action on account of the perversions of the mental, vital and physical consciousnesses in the individual. It awakens and comes to the forefront only when the frontal personality is sufficiently purified and when the intense aspiration for the truth relentlessly governs the being. The full awakening of the psychic and the subsequent psychichization of the frontal personality takes place only under the impact of the yoga....

7) Besides, the soul or the psychic in humans is a delegation of a superior line of cosmic consciousness-energy and this in turn has a supracosmic aspect and finally this can be traced to a direct projection from the unified field of consciousness-energy that in the manifestation bypasses the intervening planes and directly infuses matter as represented in the human species.

8) The awakened psychic helps the individual consciousness-energy to scale the entire hierarchy of the planes of the Manifestation and merges into the unified field as the ultimate consequence.

And more....

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#46921
Jan 13, 2013
 
JOEL wrote:
IS RUACH THE SOUL?
.
obviously so

http://www2.turnto10.com/mgmedia/image/630/39...
MUQ

Jubail, Saudi Arabia

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#46922
Jan 13, 2013
 
MAAT wrote:
A very byzantian reply. Or as rabbee pointed out the simple naming of people as enemy does not make it so. maybe he and the ansar were just out to get their hands on their synagoge, land, goods, tax, trade, wifes, daughters etc.

What Stefano asks for ( apart of course from the valid question whether an actual person existed ):
Muhammad, during his Mecca years, was ridiculed for his confused sayings by his own tribe of Quraish. He was called “shaeron majnoon”—crazed poet.

More of this kid of ridicule would make the person more real ( a drawback if one historically doubts the existence. Though we do not know if it was actually about him. It might be some over the top ruler who's acts and reaction to invasions and killings were attributed to.)
Ans.

There is no limit on people's imaginations and I am not the one to answer and justify every one's imaginations.

Pagans of Makkah calling our prophet "Crazed Poet" does not mean any thing, because before our prophet Jesus Christ was also called "a mad man, a man possessed by evil spirit"!!

Every prophet and every preacher of truth get this type of "fan Mail"!!
MUQ

Jubail, Saudi Arabia

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#46923
Jan 13, 2013
 
MAAT wrote:
MUQ i love it every time you get another fit.
It keeps the tread about 'all things Islamic that are hard to swallow' active.
You do not know the criticism system of Islam, otherwise you would not say like that.

Muslims are very great critic of their own writers. If we use Islamic standards, NONE of the best known Western writers could even come to the below average Muslim writers.
kebasi

Singapore, Singapore

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#46924
Jan 13, 2013
 
pls visit youtube.com/dajjal video islam bangladesh
MUQ

Jubail, Saudi Arabia

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#46925
Jan 13, 2013
 
MAAT wrote:
<quoted text>
I thought you would indeed jump without testing the waters.
It's still seen as an apology for Islam, using material of the 19 and beginning of the 20th century.
Snouck Gurgronje to name one of the giants.
It does indeed not fit your politically correct and adjusted version. We see that new ( relatively as in Tabari edited material does not feature.) and in the 18th and 19th century Mecca was still a hummock, so much unspoiled, as well as the people.
But the sources are Islamic!
So read and think twice before commenting. You are most probably the one with the edited version.
All these so called Western Giants are like little pygmies when compared with average Muslim writers.

These people have no sense about the "value and standing" of the text they are using.

The books Like Tabari and Ibn Ishaq and likes of have very little authority in Islamic literature.

And these books are the "Best and Most Oft Quoted books in writings of these Western Giants"!!

They even do not understand how any text is to be evaluated before you can use it as evidence.

For these Western Giants the "least authentic reports" are the "most reliable one"....and Prof. Margoliuth accepts it.

The "Only" criterion for these giants to accept any report as "authentic" is that it should be scandalous and it should present Prophet and his companions in some "grey area"!!

They say "if it was not true, why Muslim writers would even mention it"!!

And them little pygmies like you consider the work of these Giant pygmies as of highest standard and quote and re-quote, till you are blue in the face!!

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#46926
Jan 13, 2013
 
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
You do not know the criticism system of Islam, otherwise you would not say like that.
Muslims are very great critic of their own writers. If we use Islamic standards, NONE of the best known Western writers could even come to the below average Muslim writers.
You presume too much.
At least they give critique after thoroughly scrutinizing a text.
But you proof to be a stubborn non reader and avoid any modernism hence the typification 'fits'.

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