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HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#45412 Dec 13, 2012
have to go
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#45413 Dec 13, 2012
My point, Jews had a Jewish IDENTITY before they got "Judaism". They had a Jewish IDENTITY when God made a covenant with them.
former res

Newtown Square, PA

#45414 Dec 13, 2012
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
HughBe--- In other words YOU are unable to reconcile atheists Jews with your FOOLISH idea that Jews are an ethnoreligious group.
I just did.

They are indeed ethnoreligious.

However they can leave the religion.

But they cannot change their DNA, so the enthno part sticks.

I will always have Irish DNA regardless of what god I worship, or fail to.

YOu dig?
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
Now, do you really understand your words? Do you understand that I am and have been saying that being Jewish is NOT a ethnoreligious matter?
I fully understant that you are confused.

But I don't know why or how.
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
You have just said the same thing without understanding it. List the elements of ethnicity and apply them to atheists Jews in the US.
I was born Irish-Catholic.

I am no longer Catholic but I will ALWAYS be have Irish DNA.

The only reason Jews are referred to as ethnoreligious is because the one name and concept refers to both their ethnicity AND their religion.

You dig?

Good.

Next.
former res

Newtown Square, PA

#45419 Dec 13, 2012
HughBe wrote:
Former--Why would you suggest it is sick or unnatural for two consenting adults to express their affectione for one another?
HughBe--- Ask the MEDICAL fraternity why they not only suggested that it was a SICKNESS but they CLASSIFIED it as such.
The medical commnunity also used to "bleed" their patients in order to remove illness and infection.

We've come a long way, no thanks to backward thinkers such as yourself.

you would have been one of the folks at Kittyhawk saying "If man were meant to fly, he'd have wings!" (Look it up.)

Try to more of progressive thinker and not such a knuckle-dragging reactionary.

Chicks will like you better.
HughBe wrote:
Former--Why do you care so much what happens in the bedrooms of others?
HughBe--- when did I say that I care? I don't but it still remains a SICKNESS and a PERVERSION.
You are clearly preocuppied with the sexual behavior of others.

Get over it.

Live ans let live.
HughBe wrote:
Besides tell your fellows to desist with their LIES. The fact that I think that their sexual activities are perverted does not mean that I have an IRRATIONAL fear of them or homophobic.
Tell them to stop seeking approval from others.
As with blacks or women, they seek no special treatment, only equal treatment.
HughBe wrote:
Former--The key words are: consenting adults.
HughBe-- Thank you for the NEW insert i.e. consenting adults. Tell me are children attracted to each other? Can they control it? What about the paedophiles can they control their attractions?
Sure, children can be attracted to one another, don't you think?

Gay people often know from a very young age that they are different.

Children while generally having less control, are also not generally as sexual as adults.

I'm not sure what pedophiles (or rapists for that matter) have to do with this.
HughBe wrote:
Recall, your ORIGINAL point was about CONTROL and attraction. THe history is here to prove it.
Do children have sex in the US? At what age did you have your first sexual experience?
I don't recall making a point about control.

Children do not tend to have actual sex.

I lost my virginity as a teenager.
HughBe wrote:
HughBe-- There is greater EVIDENCE of a Creator. THINK and LOOK.
There is evidence of an earth, a sky, oceans, trees etc. But no evidence of how or why it all got here.

We don't know.

Though some of us will make up stories because we just can't seem to live with not knowing.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#45420 Dec 13, 2012
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
I just did.
They are indeed ethnoreligious.
However they can leave the religion.
But they cannot change their DNA, so the enthno part sticks.
I will always have Irish DNA regardless of what god I worship, or fail to.
YOu dig?
<quoted text>
I fully understant that you are confused.
But I don't know why or how.
<quoted text>
I was born Irish-Catholic.
I am no longer Catholic but I will ALWAYS be have Irish DNA.
The only reason Jews are referred to as ethnoreligious is because the one name and concept refers to both their ethnicity AND their religion.
You dig?
Good.
Next.
HughBe--- In other words YOU are unable to reconcile atheists Jews with your FOOLISH idea that Jews are an ethnoreligious group.
I just did.

Former---They are indeed ethnoreligious.
However they can leave the religion.

HughBe--- Tell me about the RELIGION that children who are/were born to secular Jews meaning atheists etc would leave.

What RELIGION would your children who were born after you became an atheist LEAVE?

What RELIGION did the 10 Northern Tribes of Israel have? Reconcile that RELIGION with the RELIGION that you speak of. What exactly is the RELIGION that you have in mind?

I shall not waste anymore time with your nonsense and LIES.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#45421 Dec 13, 2012
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
The medical commnunity also used to "bleed" their patients in order to remove illness and infection.
We've come a long way, no thanks to backward thinkers such as yourself.
you would have been one of the folks at Kittyhawk saying "If man were meant to fly, he'd have wings!" (Look it up.)
Try to more of progressive thinker and not such a knuckle-dragging reactionary.
Chicks will like you better.
<quoted text>
You are clearly preocuppied with the sexual behavior of others.
Get over it.
Live ans let live.
<quoted text>
As with blacks or women, they seek no special treatment, only equal treatment.
<quoted text>
Sure, children can be attracted to one another, don't you think?
Gay people often know from a very young age that they are different.
Children while generally having less control, are also not generally as sexual as adults.
I'm not sure what pedophiles (or rapists for that matter) have to do with this.
<quoted text>
I don't recall making a point about control.
Children do not tend to have actual sex.
I lost my virginity as a teenager.
<quoted text>
There is evidence of an earth, a sky, oceans, trees etc. But no evidence of how or why it all got here.
We don't know.
Though some of us will make up stories because we just can't seem to live with not knowing.
Former---As with blacks or women, they seek no special treatment, only equal treatment.

HughBe--- spoken like a truly deceived soul. Do women attach the word PHOBIA to themselves because someone disagrees with a particular behaviour? NO.

Everything for your fellows are PHOBIC when there is no fear much more an IRRATIONAL one.

Former--Gay people often know from a very young age that they are different.

HughBe--- then counselling should have been sought from an early age. Why not tell their parents about their DIFFERENCES? Is it that they cannot TRUST their parents?

I believe that ALL children should share any problems and or perceived DIFFERENCES that they think that they have.

Former--I'm not sure what pedophiles (or rapists for that matter) have to do with this.

HughBe--- Based on memory, I made no mention of rapists. I spoke about pedophiles and linked it to your POINT about people cannot help who they are attracted to in the same way that they cannot control the colour of their eyes etc. Get it. pedophiles cannot control their attraction to young people.

Former--I don't recall making a point about control.

HughBe-- Really? It was your CENTRAL point. I shall refresh your memory "We do not control whom we are attracted to or whom we love.

You need to opne your eyes, your mind and your heart and understand this. " Post45262 and it is NOT the only one with these words.

Former--Children do not tend to have actual sex.

HughBe--- Really?

Former--I lost my virginity as a teenager.

HughBe--- What age?

Former--There is evidence of an earth, a sky, oceans, trees etc. But no evidence of how or why it all got here.

HughBe--- They made themselves. You know that such a view is consistent with your own experience and common sense.
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#45422 Dec 13, 2012
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
The medical commnunity also used to "bleed" their patients in order to remove illness and infection.
We've come a long way, no thanks to backward thinkers such as yourself.
you would have been one of the folks at Kittyhawk saying "If man were meant to fly, he'd have wings!" (Look it up.)
Try to more of progressive thinker and not such a knuckle-dragging reactionary.
Chicks will like you better.
<quoted text>
You are clearly preocuppied with the sexual behavior of others.
Get over it.
Live ans let live.
<quoted text>

As with blacks or women, they seek no special treatment, only equal treatment.
<quoted text>
Sure, children can be attracted to one another, don't you think?
Gay people often know from a very young age that they are different.
Children while generally having less control, are also not generally as sexual as adults.
I'm not sure what pedophiles (or rapists for that matter) have to do with this.
<quoted text>
I don't recall making a point about control.
Children do not tend to have actual sex.
I lost my virginity as a teenager.
<quoted text>
There is evidence of an earth, a sky, oceans, trees etc. But no evidence of how or why it all got here.
We don't know.
Though some of us will make up stories because we just can't seem to live with not knowing.
Former---I don't recall making a point about control.

HughBe-- I see, you don't recall YOUR central point. Here is another example taken from YOUR post 45219 " Are you suggesting they are somehow promoting something is actually under no one's control, much like eye or skin color?"
HughBe

Kingston, Jamaica

#45423 Dec 13, 2012
Take your time dear, THINK before you open your orifice.
Frijoles

Madison, CT

#45424 Dec 13, 2012
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
1.LIES are from Satan.
2.Yet yesterday or very recently YOU said "I am NOT aware of any OTHER religion EXCEPT Judaism that Jews practice. "
Why the LIE? Why the deception? YOU knew very well that you were LYING.
In essence your OTHER lie that Jews are an ethnoreligious group is the construct of Satan.
3. Deception is of Satan, recall Adam and Eve? You are deceiving your own self. I shall repeat my posts from here on. You shall not drag me off from my focus.
Knowledge, social science, wikipedia, etc etc... all the tool of the devil...

smooth....

call me when you want to be logical again
Frijoles

Madison, CT

#45425 Dec 13, 2012
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
Frijoles---obviously sarcasm
HughBe---Self-deceiving fool there is no sarcasm in your words below. Read the context again. I tell you this only your rabbis would agree with your words about sarcasm. Why? birds of a feather F together.
Frijoles---I just posted a bunch of links that said that race was a sucky concept. What you are getting it is really a degree of ethnicity.
I have to admit rarely do I encounter someone so dense.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group
An ethnic group is a group of people whose members are identified through a common trait. This can, but does not have to, include an idea of common heritage, a common culture, a shared language or dialect.[1] The group's ethos or ideology may also stress common ancestry and religion, as opposed to an ethnic minority group which refers to race.[2][3][4][5] The process that results in the emergence of an ethnicity is called ethnogenesis. Some ethnic groups are marked by little more than a common name.
Frijoles--Jews are am ETHNO-RELIGIOUS group - see above
HughBe--- In the given context, explain ethno-religious.
I did. I cant help it if you dont accept the worldwide definitions.

Simply put - Jews are the member of the Jewish people. Their religion is Judaism. They share a common ancestry, literature, language, homeland, and history. To be a Jew once either needs to practice the religion, or be of Jewish enthnicity (i.e. one the above traits, OR both.

Some housekeeping: Re: your remark about how Jews can be Bhuddists/Christians/etc....
I explained ALL of that yesterday - You are playing loose with the scale of this conversation.

On the individual scale a Jew can practice whatever religion or nonreligion they happen to practice but OBVIOUSLY ON THE WHOLE Judaism is the religion of the Jewish people (i.e. on the collective scale). Christianity isnt the religion of the Jewish people (as much as you wish it to be). Hence I made that sarcastic comment - WE are called JEWS for just that reason.

Frijoles

Madison, CT

#45426 Dec 13, 2012
HughBe wrote:
My point, Jews had a Jewish IDENTITY before they got "Judaism". They had a Jewish IDENTITY when God made a covenant with them.
Actually that is untrue

1. You have yet to specify WHICH covenant you meant (there were several)
2. The first few were to the founders of the Abrahamic Religions
3. Most Jewish people would agree that the collective Israelite identity started for real after the exodus, however it was explained in concept beforehand.

I think what you are tryiong to do is to set up a standrd evangelical "Replacement Theology" argument.

I.E. Israelites existed - then Jews (i.e your "Rabbis" corrupted the identity - therefore allowing you as a CHRISTIAN to step right in and save the world by reoccupying the spiritual inheritance that was given to the Israelites...

Obviously, as a Jewish person, I find that logic both arrogant and offensive, besides from plain wrong.
Frijoles

Madison, CT

#45427 Dec 13, 2012
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
Let me explain it to you but first let me thank you for learning something that is TRUE.
What it means is that their Jewish IDENTITY is not a function of RELIGION be it Judaism or otherwise. Their IDENTITY had to do with SEED or BIOLOGY or DNA. Get it ?
Here is more help for you and your rabbis. "And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land" Genesis 12:7.
Note no JUDAISM is involved. His name was still Abram. Do you really understand the points?
Study it.
Thank you for your OPINION regarding biblical interpretation

I will take it into consideration, with the same careful and thoughtful consideration I give to other evangelical Christians who try to spin the scripture to support their mission.

Dont quit your day job
former res

Newtown Square, PA

#45428 Dec 13, 2012
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
HughBe--- Tell me about the RELIGION that children who are/were born to secular Jews meaning atheists etc would leave.
If you are not born into a religion and you do not adopt one, you have no religion to leave.
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
What RELIGION would your children who were born after you became an atheist LEAVE?
None. They were born to sensible father, thank god!
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
What RELIGION did the 10 Northern Tribes of Israel have?
I don't know offhand.

Frijoles would know this much better than me.
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
I shall not waste anymore time with your nonsense and LIES.
I speak facts, reason and logic.

You speak fairy tales.

And you admit to being mentally childlike.
former res

Newtown Square, PA

#45429 Dec 13, 2012
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
Former---As with blacks or women, they seek no special treatment, only equal treatment.
HughBe--- spoken like a truly deceived soul. Do women attach the word PHOBIA to themselves because someone disagrees with a particular behaviour? NO.
Everything for your fellows are PHOBIC when there is no fear much more an IRRATIONAL one.
"Misogyny (/m&#618;&#712;s&# 594;d&#658;&#618;ni/) is the hatred or dislike of women or girls"

"Homophobia encompasses a range of negative attitudes and feelings toward homosexuality or people who are identified or perceived as being lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (LGBT). It can be expressed as antipathy, contempt, prejudice, aversion, or hatred, and may be based on irrational fear.[1][2][3][4"

The term "homophobia" has a broader meaning than you think.

You have shown yourself to be somewhat vocabulary-challenged.

As with the term "ethnoreligious."
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
Former--Gay people often know from a very young age that they are different.
HughBe--- then counselling should have been sought from an early age. Why not tell their parents about their DIFFERENCES? Is it that they cannot TRUST their parents?
I believe that ALL children should share any problems and or perceived DIFFERENCES that they think that they have.
Counseling for what?

How about counseling for having blue eyes or being left-handed?

It makes about as much sense.

Someone being gay is only a "problem" for homophobes like you.

You hold the same type of mentality as members of the KKK - haters.

I'm sorry for you.

If your god actually existed, he would be disappointed in you.
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
Former--I'm not sure what pedophiles (or rapists for that matter) have to do with this.
HughBe--- Based on memory, I made no mention of rapists. I spoke about pedophiles and linked it to your POINT about people cannot help who they are attracted to in the same way that they cannot control the colour of their eyes etc. Get it. pedophiles cannot control their attraction to young people.
Pedophiles are sexual deviants. So are rapists.

Neither should be included in this conversation.
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
Former--I don't recall making a point about control.
HughBe-- Really? It was your CENTRAL point. I shall refresh your memory "We do not control whom we are attracted to or whom we love.
You need to opne your eyes, your mind and your heart and understand this. " Post45262 and it is NOT the only one with these words.
Did you control the fact that you grew into a heterosexual?

Did you have a vote on this issue?

Hint: Same for gays.

You'll understand perhaps one day.
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
Former--Children do not tend to have actual sex.
HughBe--- Really?
Former--I lost my virginity as a teenager.
HughBe--- What age?
Why are you obsessed with the sex lives of others?
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
Former--There is evidence of an earth, a sky, oceans, trees etc. But no evidence of how or why it all got here.
HughBe--- They made themselves. You know that such a view is consistent with your own experience and common sense.
I didn't say they made themselves.

Why do you put words in my mouth?
Frijoles

Madison, CT

#45430 Dec 13, 2012
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
If you are not born into a religion and you do not adopt one, you have no religion to leave.
.
I made a similar point to that a FEW TIMES yesterday as well.

Hughbes Atheist Jews - ok its logical that there are "ethnic" Jews that do not follow the religion. But at some point, if they discard their culture, they cease to be Jews. And why would you want to refer to them as Jews at that point anyhow?

And THEN, lets say someone realizes that this person is RELATED to a Jew (i.e. their great grandma was Jewish)- Is that person now a Jew- despite their lack of conscious ethnicity or religion?

Yes. For the moment at least.

Why? Because someone else flipped the switch - they "realized" the ancestry (i.e. actually two criteria from our definition of ethnoreligious 1) jewish ancestor 2) recognized as a minority group)

But if noone from the outside recognizes their Jewishness, nor do they acknowledge it from the inside, then obviously there is no Jewishness to be had.

Kind of like you need someone to hear that tree to fall in the forest for the tree to be real.
former res

Newtown Square, PA

#45431 Dec 13, 2012
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
Former---I don't recall making a point about control.
HughBe-- I see, you don't recall YOUR central point. Here is another example taken from YOUR post 45219 " Are you suggesting they are somehow promoting something is actually under no one's control, much like eye or skin color?"
Covered in my previous post above.
former res

Newtown Square, PA

#45432 Dec 13, 2012
HughBe wrote:
<quoted text>
Former---As with blacks or women, they seek no special treatment, only equal treatment.
HughBe--- spoken like a truly deceived soul. Do women attach the word PHOBIA to themselves because someone disagrees with a particular behaviour? NO.
This is yet another area where you would benefit from some education.

Being gay is not simply a behavior.

It is who and what these folks are.

I'm guessing on occasion your loins have lusted and ached for you to mount a female.

This urge is part of what defines you as a human being. Much like the areas of our tongues that help us to enjoy sweet or salty foods.

Sit down and have a chat with a guy person. It won't "rub off" on you - I promise.

They will tell you:

It's NOT just what we do - it's WHO we are.
former res

Newtown Square, PA

#45433 Dec 13, 2012
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
But if noone from the outside recognizes their Jewishness, nor do they acknowledge it from the inside, then obviously there is no Jewishness to be had.
Kind of like you need someone to hear that tree to fall in the forest for the tree to be real.
Not Jewish in the cultural (or religious) sense, but still in the ethnic sense?

As with my being Irish?(Even if I know nothing of the culture or my family history..)
Frijoles

Madison, CT

#45434 Dec 13, 2012
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
Not Jewish in the cultural (or religious) sense, but still in the ethnic sense?
As with my being Irish?(Even if I know nothing of the culture or my family history..)
Yes - but culture is a part of ethnicity. And as long as you consider yourself Irish (even if you dont look/act Irish (whatever that means) AND you have the famly history, you ARE Irish. But if you forget you are Irish, and noone "reminds" you, you are no longer Irish, ethnically/culturally or otherwise.

These things dont always fall into perfect boxes. But they are not that complicated either.

When I was young I remember going to Jewish youthgroup conferences where they sat around at a table trying to decide whether we were Jewish Americans or American Jews. People get PhDs on these types of topics, but are they really usefull at that level of detail? I never thought so.
Frijoles

Madison, CT

#45436 Dec 13, 2012
former res wrote:
<quoted text>
This is yet another area where you would benefit from some education.
Being gay is not simply a behavior.
.
What hangs him up is that in the bible, there is no such thing as Gay identity, only gay behavior

By the same token, the bible doesnt say there ISNT gay identity, it just doesnt get into that level of detail.

And Huggie, as a fundie, doesnt expound on what ISNT said - his world is bounded by the literalness of what IS said.

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