Bible study rules for public schools proposed

Feb 10, 2010 Full story: The Courier-Journal 130,962

FRANKFORT, Ky. - The state would create rules for teaching about the Bible in public high schools under a bill filed Monday by three Democratic senators.

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“Question, Explore, Discover”

Since: Dec 11

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#96332 Mar 17, 2013
Skeptical Spectacles wrote:
<quoted text>
I never said that science and faith can't go together. Where did you get that? I think it's a hard thing to do though. I know a few very intelligent people who have faith. These people never proselytize and when pushed on the topic admit that their faith gives them comfort even though it doesn't make sense. And I'm fine with that.
Faith is a personal thing between you and your god. If you're not pushing it on me, or using my tax dollars to fund your faith, I'm good with it.
Unfortunately, people like my "faithful" friends are not the rational people you hear the most. You hear the zealots who want to convert as many as they can (probably because their religion dictates that they must).
I think reason and faith (being the basis of science and religion respectively) are at odds fundamentally. A person of faith could suspend their sense of reason in order to adhere to unreasonable claims, such as those found in the Bible. But I don't think it is possible for reason and faith to be active at the same time in a through process. At some point you are going to have to allow yourself to follow reason or you're going to have to make a choice not to.

And it isn't that reason disproves God or anything like that. The problem is that reason requires you to follow the evidence, wherever it leads. But faith requires you to believe something *regardless* of the evidence.

Nobody comes to Jesus Christ, for example, because of the evidence. Nobody.

It is actually antithetical to Christian faith to use to reason to find Christ. Particularly in the Protestant faiths. Both Calvin and Luther were pretty adamant that reason has jack-all to do with it. And the Bible contains passages telling you to basically ignore reason because it is a trick of the devil.
happy

Lexington, KY

#96333 Mar 17, 2013
Skeptical Spectacles wrote:
<quoted text>You're right, I don't see the humor in your posts. I see the rantings of someone who doesn't understand what they oppose.

And no, "science" does not explain or admit that there is a creator. The fact that you would write that displays your ignorance about what "science" is.
I would rather b ignorant than have the beliefs you have :-) or don't have la de dah
happy

Lexington, KY

#96334 Mar 17, 2013
Yiago wrote:
<quoted text>Holy crap, that's like a Who's Who of Crazytown! Strobel and Craig are notoriously dishonest in their argumentation. When facts won't back up your story go with smoke and mirrors, I guess.
Rofl ok. As long as we r breathing there's a chance to see the light and find the truth :-). Maybe someday ... Before u die... And enter eternity...

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#96335 Mar 17, 2013
Yiago wrote:
<quoted text>
I think reason and faith (being the basis of science and religion respectively) are at odds fundamentally. A person of faith could suspend their sense of reason in order to adhere to unreasonable claims, such as those found in the Bible. But I don't think it is possible for reason and faith to be active at the same time in a through process. At some point you are going to have to allow yourself to follow reason or you're going to have to make a choice not to.
And it isn't that reason disproves God or anything like that. The problem is that reason requires you to follow the evidence, wherever it leads. But faith requires you to believe something *regardless* of the evidence.
Nobody comes to Jesus Christ, for example, because of the evidence. Nobody.
It is actually antithetical to Christian faith to use to reason to find Christ. Particularly in the Protestant faiths. Both Calvin and Luther were pretty adamant that reason has jack-all to do with it. And the Bible contains passages telling you to basically ignore reason because it is a trick of the devil.
True, all true. On a personal level I agree with you. I can't imagine a future where I would have faith.
I'm just saying it is possible for people, through well practiced cognitive dissonance, to walk that high-wire (not to use reason to find Christ, but to shut reason out). And if that's what they choose to do, and as long as they aren't trying to convert people to do the same (or using my money to do it), then I'm fine with it.

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#96336 Mar 17, 2013
Yiago wrote:
<quoted text>Smith did not attain the Book of Abraham, he invented it. He was asked to translate some old Egyptian scrolls or something like that. He reluctantly agreed and the resulting text was the Book of Abraham, which he claimed was a lost book of the Bible.

At that time no one in the world could read ancient Egyptian. But later, when scholars did figure it out, they took a look at Smith's version of the story and compared it to what the Egyptian scrolls actually said.

They were not remotely the same thing. The scrolls were just some bits from a traditional Egyptian funerary book, or something like that. What Smith wrote was a story about Biblical characters.

So, he made it up, basically hoping nobody would learn to read ancient Egyptian.

That, among many other things, is one of the reasons that Smith and the entire Mormon tradition is widely seen as a fraud.

Google it if you don't believe me. I'm going by memory on this one but that is the way the story goes. It's actually pretty fascinating. There's a lot more detail to it than what I'm remembering. I think the Book of Abraham was included in the Book of Mormon for many years but after the original was translated properly the LDS stopped printing it in the BoM.

Is it in the current copy of the BoM? If not, why?

Is this story told to young Mormons learning about the history of their religion?
Not this story, but the actual story is written in Joseph Smith History.
A group of people were traveling through making money by showing off mummies and some other items. Joseph was impressed to buy some of the items. Among the items purchased were several papyri scrolls. One if which was the story of Abraham while in Egypt. The funerary scripts were among the papyri as well, and is now in a museum. He kept the Book of Abraham separate. I don't know where it's location is now.
This Book is a part of our standard scriptures and is included in what we call the Pearl of Great Price.

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#96337 Mar 17, 2013
Yiago wrote:
<quoted text>If Kolob is mentioned as being close to God why is it irrelevant?

You seem like a smart, kind person. I have no beef with you. But I cannot respect beliefs if they are not founded on good reason. The BoM is a silly book and the LDS is a church based on misinformation and fraud. I can't respect that.

Mormons are good people, on the whole. Its just that they are chained to a really silly religious tradition. Notice how over time the face of the LDS gets more and more mainstream. They speak less and less about their more...eccentric views and ideas.

But the internet will not allow things like Kolob and "white and delightsome" skin color go unknown.
Actually, I think I'm speaking pretty openly about everything.
Have you read the Book of Mormon? I don't remember thinking it was silly, even when I wasn't a member.
The whole reason the church is appearing mainstream, is because the members are much more visible, and for the first time in 200 years, people are seeing that we aren't as weird as we were thought to be.
People actually thought we had horns, aren't allowed to dance, don't use electricity, etc.

If you believe Mormons are good people, why wouldn't you want to know what drives their values to be so high, instead of attacking what you THINK they believe?
God says you will know His people by their fruits.

The reason I personally think Kolob is irrelevant is because it doesn't affect my salvation.

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#96338 Mar 17, 2013
happy wrote:
<quoted text>
I would rather b ignorant than have the beliefs you have :-) or don't have la de dah
Well, at least you admit you're ignorant about the things you disagree with. I guess admitting you have a problem is a start.
happy

Lexington, KY

#96339 Mar 17, 2013
Skeptical Spectacles wrote:
<quoted text>Well, at least you admit you're ignorant about the things you disagree with. I guess admitting you have a problem is a start.
Again la de dah. And I'm HAPPY and going to Heaven. Ignorance and all :-)

“Question, Explore, Discover”

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#96340 Mar 17, 2013
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
Not this story, but the actual story is written in Joseph Smith History.
A group of people were traveling through making money by showing off mummies and some other items. Joseph was impressed to buy some of the items. Among the items purchased were several papyri scrolls. One if which was the story of Abraham while in Egypt. The funerary scripts were among the papyri as well, and is now in a museum. He kept the Book of Abraham separate. I don't know where it's location is now.
This Book is a part of our standard scriptures and is included in what we call the Pearl of Great Price.
No offense, but that is a bunch LDS propaganda. Step outside the LDS circles and you will find that nobody takes the Book of Abraham seriously. Smith did not have any idea how to read ancient Egyptian. In fact nobody at the time had figured it out.

The LDS itself wanted to have the papyri translated to validate their Prophet. But it turns out he was wrong. It had nothing at all to do with Abraham.

And this argument that *some* of the papyri were related to Abraham, and kept separate...that's just batty. Do you not see that this is a post hoc rationalization?

Smith was an obvious fraud. I don't know how an otherwise intelligent person could not see that.

And we're just talking about one little element of the fraud. We could go into a slew of other problems with the BoM. Everything from "white and delightsome" skin color to where in the heck are the archeological remnants of the battles that Smith describes taking place *right here* the USA?

It's a very, very silly religion. Luckily nobody takes it too seriously so most Mormons are just regular people. But it has to take a lot of energy to carry around that much cognitive dissonance every day.

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#96341 Mar 17, 2013
Yiago wrote:
<quoted text>Do you accept that Muslims also experience God via their Prophet? If so, how are the two compatible? They speak of explicitly different ideas. Do you hold that both can be true at the same time?
I believe that the Spirit of God can be everywhere. Its presence can be felt by all. I believe that God can speak to man anytime He feels necessary. I believe He can call a prophet to be His mouthpiece in different locations at the same time. I also believe that prophets are not perfect, because they are human and fallible. But I do not think that everyone that professes to be a prophet, is actually a prophet.
Truth can be spoken by anyone, but the difference is, a prophet is the person set apart to lead God's people and speak His words to them.

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#96342 Mar 17, 2013
Satanic Priest wrote:
<quoted text>Bullsh it
Care to expound?

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#96343 Mar 17, 2013
Satanic Priest wrote:
So explain to me how your god was afraid that when man built the tower of Babble they would reach heaven and nothing would be denied them but when we built tall buildings and sent men to space your god was silent.
If man could reach heaven from a tall tower how come telescopes and spacecraft do not find heaven?
I don't recall God being afraid they would reach Heaven. I remember God seeing that people had become so wicked and that they thought they could get to Heaven on their own, instead of how He designed. So He confounded their languages and sent them to different lands.

“Question, Explore, Discover”

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#96344 Mar 17, 2013
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually, I think I'm speaking pretty openly about everything.
Have you read the Book of Mormon? I don't remember thinking it was silly, even when I wasn't a member.
The whole reason the church is appearing mainstream, is because the members are much more visible, and for the first time in 200 years, people are seeing that we aren't as weird as we were thought to be.
People actually thought we had horns, aren't allowed to dance, don't use electricity, etc.
If you believe Mormons are good people, why wouldn't you want to know what drives their values to be so high, instead of attacking what you THINK they believe?
God says you will know His people by their fruits.
The reason I personally think Kolob is irrelevant is because it doesn't affect my salvation.
I didn't say I think Mormons had *better* morals. Most people in general are morally good, for the most part. It has nothing to do with their religion.

And Kolob does relate to your salvation. It is part of one of your accepted holy books, written by the man you believe is next in line to Jesus Christ as a Prophet of God. So I would think that anything he wrote would be relevant. I know Kolob is embarrassing to talk about, but it's part of the baggage you have to defend.

So where is it? Can you find it on a star map? Is it a star or a planet? Are there Kolobians, or is it a lifeless world?

Will you some day get your own planet?

And why did God wait for the Civil Rights movement to inspire your Prophets to stop being racists? Isn't that a little...convenient?

Help me out here. I don't think you have horns, but I think you believe some really silly things that don't make any sense, particularly in 2013.

“Question, Explore, Discover”

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#96345 Mar 17, 2013
Skeptical Spectacles wrote:
<quoted text>
True, all true. On a personal level I agree with you. I can't imagine a future where I would have faith.
I'm just saying it is possible for people, through well practiced cognitive dissonance, to walk that high-wire (not to use reason to find Christ, but to shut reason out). And if that's what they choose to do, and as long as they aren't trying to convert people to do the same (or using my money to do it), then I'm fine with it.
I just had a good conversation about this last night with an old friend.

I think that if you believe something then that's ok with me. I don't really care. Until your belief seeps into the public life that we all have to live. Then it becomes my concern.

I don't want my country or planet to be full of stupid people. If you think teaching Creationism as science, for example, is a good idea and you vote for people who tend to agree with you on that...then your beliefs are very important to me. It affects me, my kids, and my world. The dumber my neighbor the lower the overall quality of life will be.

I want every kid to grow up critical and sharp as a tack. I want my tax dollars to fund public education that teaches critical thinking at every step. I want my children to be able to tell the difference between what is genuine and what is fraudulent. I want them to be able to evaluate things and make rational, mindful decisions about those things based on evidence and good, solid moral instincts.

So I don't really care what the cabin-dwelling isolationist thinks about God. But I do care what the voting Fundamentalist thinks.

I don't like to be mean to people. And sometimes telling the truth about reality strikes people as mean. You have to know when to talk about it and when to let things go. I usually don't engage that much face to face, unless it is something egregious like an anti-vaccine nut or a Creationist. But online, on a forum...if you make your belief known then it is fair game! Gloves off, argumentation at the ready. Defend it or shut up.

Know what I mean?

lol
happy

Lexington, KY

#96346 Mar 17, 2013
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>I believe that the Spirit of God can be everywhere. Its presence can be felt by all. I believe that God can speak to man anytime He feels necessary. I believe He can call a prophet to be His mouthpiece in different locations at the same time. I also believe that prophets are not perfect, because they are human and fallible. But I do not think that everyone that professes to be a prophet, is actually a prophet.
Truth can be spoken by anyone, but the difference is, a prophet is the person set apart to lead God's people and speak His words to them.
We can water but the soil must accept lol. They r all In denial. It's usually because ppl don't want to b accountable for their sins. This post been going on for months. Denial is easier for them sadly
happy

Lexington, KY

#96347 Mar 17, 2013
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>I don't recall God being afraid they would reach Heaven. I remember God seeing that people had become so wicked and that they thought they could get to Heaven on their own, instead of how He designed. So He confounded their languages and sent them to different lands.
They also say God is mean and evil and kills...Like the tower they mentioned reaching Heaven. Like that could happen lol. They turn it into what they want... Heck even some "Christians" do that...but at least get story right :-)

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#96348 Mar 17, 2013
ChromiuMan wrote:
But what if what they believe IS insultingly unintelligent? Shall I be respectful and courteous to the point of encouraging the southerner who covers his truck with stars 'n' bars and politely reinforce his claims that it is "heritage not hate?" Should one demurely abstain from conversation when he offers erroneous and confounded supportive arguments for his display?
Let me help you with this. You politely say "I disagree, here's why:"
Eplurbishwatever

Somerset, KY

#96349 Mar 17, 2013
Skeptical Spectacles wrote:
<quoted text>
Thank you for giving a concrete example of ignorant zealots being the mouthpiece for those with faith.
No problem.

Please just don't confuse those types with those of us with good faith (and sense enough) to realize, good faith is rendered to that which is deserving of it, as is karma to those reaping what they sow (be it good or be it not).
And that for some of us, having good faith in interesting scientific studies of things such as--

"Precambrian Times
(4567 to 542 mya)

Hadean Eon (4567 to 3800 mya)

Hadean Eon
(4567 to 3800 mya)

The moon was formed from the collision of the Earth with a planetoid.
- 4650 mya: Formation of chondrules in the Solar Nebula
- 4567 mya: Formation of the Solar System"

actually is quite representative of the Physics of "heavenly" aspects, that we still have MUCH to learn about, as telescopes have yet to be able to sustain any sort of viable "All knowing" answers with yet either, and, all of which really already kicked the "falling apes from the sky" theory, quite squarely, in it's many black holes of ignorance, to say the least.

Just easiest, most logical AND most truthful,(for some of us w/out issues with either science or peoples choices of religion) simply to say, there's much "we just don't know" about, but that for some of us, there IS room and comprehension of and for both, in the cranial cavities of many.
Eplurbishwatever

Somerset, KY

#96350 Mar 17, 2013
happy wrote:
<quoted text>
They also say God is mean and evil and kills...Like the tower they mentioned reaching Heaven. Like that could happen lol. They turn it into what they want... Heck even some "Christians" do that...but at least get story right :-)
Only for those that might read such literally at a fifth grade level of miscomprehension, with out understanding enough to realize that such terms should perhaps be read figuratively, rather than just "see spot run" literally.
Or maybe perhaps some phrases ARE, just that simple, as "see spot run"....and only distorted via the ILLogical.

heav·en (hvn)
n.
1. The sky or universe as seen from the earth; the firmament.

"One persons opinion, is just that, and nothing else.".

“There is no god”

Since: Jul 12

War, WV

#96351 Mar 17, 2013
do whut wrote:
<quoted text>
Let me help you with this. You politely say "I disagree, here's why:"
Sir, while we do not agree, I would like to say that your conversation is not ...well like the other fundies posting here. You show intelligence and that you are decent. I respect YOU as a person. Please do not take the general statements that I make personally as they are not meant for people like you.

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