Bible study rules for public schools ...

Bible study rules for public schools proposed

There are 180215 comments on the The Courier-Journal story from Feb 10, 2010, titled Bible study rules for public schools proposed. In it, The Courier-Journal reports that:

FRANKFORT, Ky. - The state would create rules for teaching about the Bible in public high schools under a bill filed Monday by three Democratic senators.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at The Courier-Journal.

havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#85309 Aug 8, 2012
bravo to you for a thoughtful and kind-hearted comment. you are the sort of christian I defend when some of the extreme and hasty atheists over-generalize in criticizing Christians. we do not get enough of your type on topix, but one like you is a wonderful example of why even the most rational and devoted freethinker should not repudiate people who are Christians, simply because they call themselves Christian. It is the beliefs and the consequences of those beliefs which matter. you seem to intend to do good. please continue to visit us here.
Hocke wrote:
<quoted text>
First on your last sentence; There are a lot of them without ever having to teach the bible in a public school. Are the churches no longer capable of teaching the bible? There are reports of church membership declining, and perhaps supporters of this see it as a way of reaching out for new members.
I have pointed out previously that the 1st amendment prevents such a program in public schools but not to private ones, so I will not rehash that argument. I do not feel that public schools have the budget to allow for this, without having to bump other courses. Math, science, language arts, physical education, music, art, and trade skills are essential to students' development of their potential. These all cost tax payers who support the public schools, churches teach the bible for free. They have Sunday School, Vacation Bible School, and worship on the days they can have them. They also have groups and fellowship meetings. This costs the tax payers nothing. So why should we deprive our schools of important life skill teaching courses, for what is already provided for by an appropiate and qualified organization.
Back to decline in membership, I would want to know what kind of message churches are presenting. The hellfire and brimstone approach no longer works; with everything going on the world today and how much information is instantly available, people just tune it out. I feel the message should be about eternal love because people react better and tend be more open. There isn't enough mention out there about unconditional love. One should worship in celebration and love, not serve in fear.
As a Christian, I accept and respect other's beliefs. If I am asked or the subject arises, I speak of a God that loves diversity. That there is no one way that works for everyone, just the person. It should make you a better person, for even aethesists should practice civic virtue(how a society should treat one another). If someone doesn't want to believe, it's ok God still loves them and they have that right. When asked how could God allow horrible things to happen, I respond that when Christ died on the cross we were given the freewill to make this world good or bad. God would no longer directly control us, or reign fire down. God is also not some magical wish granting genie, though He can grant us strength when we really need it. Another question is; if God knows all that is going to happen what is the point of life and is He punishing me? I feel that God know all the infinite possibilities of any choice that could possibly be made, yet He wants us to have those choices and loves to watch things unfold through our life.
When it comes to questions of science vs religion, the short version is the heavens don't lie and God would not create a deceptive universe. If the heavens say they are billions of years old then they are, for God's Word is in nature.
Sorry to make such a long post, but as I stated the 1st amendment arguement didn't seem to be enough. Peace, and kindness to each other.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

#85310 Aug 8, 2012
wow wrote:
<quoted text> I cannot believe with all the hrrible things going on in our society that your main concern is that they not teach the bible in school. Those young minds could benifit tremendously from knowing Jesus Christ. That's exaclty what's wrong with our society. People wine more over the good and go along with all the pathetic immoral behavior. There are a lot of good christian people left in this world, learn something from them.
one thing that can be learned from bad christian people, is that they believe that they can do bad things, and then cry lord lord I believe and get forgiven for the harm they have done to others. I defend good people who are Christians. but there are many kinds of folks who call themselves Christians. The Christian religion itself, in various of its textts, gives support to the ones I think want to get off easy, by just believing in nonsense and not having to do good, or make up for the harm they do.

I still like and defend the good persons who are Christians, but the less they believe in the superstition, the wiser they are.

Since: Feb 12

El Dorado Hills, CA

#85311 Aug 8, 2012
havent forgotten wrote:
<quoted text> his good deeds in this life are intended to do that? is it a matter of good on balance, or just a few good ones? and if God is a dog, would she call him good? I am not sure we have anything to worry about, if sufficient good deeds are required, especially if bad ones count against him - and what about intended bad deeds? oh, maybe that is what would make him the anti-Christ....taking from the rich and giving to the poor ... or no, isn't the new fundie version of God supposed to be pro-success and to blame the poor for their own supposed "failures"? it is so difficult to mix up religion and politics and economics.
couldn't we just continue to have a basketball fanatic as President?
No, according to most christian theology good deeds are not good enough. Only having the true religion and practicing true religion is the only way.

Yes, it would be nice just to let politics and religion seperate but most christians are theocratic even in a secular society just like muslims are here also and by their faith they must not sway from religious teachings or face eternity in hell-fire.

Foxnews will make sure eveyone gets the message.

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#85312 Aug 8, 2012
It is the lunatics and bad examples of any group that gets the most attention, now and all through history. It has never been a true representation of the group. I do hope that one day more good Christians will speak up, telling the good Word as we like to say. Ignorance has never served anyone any good. Superstition is a form of ignorance, but not to be confused with beliefs. As a child I was told that thunder was the angels bowling and lighting was a strike, harmless superstition much like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. Harmful superstition is just that, such as believing witches are harming the town(cows drying up, crop failures, ect...) and that burning the witch would stop the percieved destruction. Many more examples exist, all of which were carried out in the name of Righteousness and sadistic inhumanity.

Which brings me to my own definition of Sin, harm that is done. There is a great misunderstanding of harm upon others or society at large. I have read this saying quite often "hate the sin not the sinner" but no where does it exist in the Bible. The further problem I see is the word "hate" used as a mantra, and this is often what is wrong with diatribes against sin and sinners. The speaker/writer may not realize it, but there is hate hidden within their expression. There is judgement upon others and if they don't know it is there, they use Righteousness as a blanket for justification. They know not the harm they do, for if they did then they are willing sinners.

I went to church from childhood, but that isn't why I am a Christian. It isn't enough to follow "because that's what the Bible says". My own spiritual experience, education, and observations have led me to a deeper understanding and dedication to my faith. I have learned about other faiths, not necessarily to change mine but to gain a greater insight of humanity. What I have found is that religions I have researched share a basic common message; be good to others, and do no harm.[On a side note, most satanists have stated that it is the only religion that accepts everyone and that is why they follow it.]
It is where I began to discover my own personal insight, God loves diversity. An aetheist once asked, "If Christianity is the one true religion, then why didn't Jesus appear to all civilizations all over the world and why didn't God perform miracles to all of humanity?" My response went like this, "If God is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient then he knows His children well. Perhaps knowing the differences we tend to have in each culture, He sent emissaries to all and thus you have different religions. Meaning there is no one right way for all, just for the person. It is our own arrogance that creates all the conflict over religion. Perhaps, the true message is to love one another and embrace all the God-given wonderful individuality of humanity. Granted this isn't a philosophy shared by other Christians, but it is one of respect of others. I read the Bible often, I console those I know that need it, and I try to give a message of hope when it's called for. I also know to not be so foolish to think there aren't evil people in the world beyond redemption. Some people you can't help, because it is also how you are treated that is important.

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#85313 Aug 8, 2012
Spaceship earth wrote:
<quoted text>
No, according to most christian theology good deeds are not good enough. Only having the true religion and practicing true religion is the only way.
Yes, it would be nice just to let politics and religion seperate but most christians are theocratic even in a secular society just like muslims are here also and by their faith they must not sway from religious teachings or face eternity in hell-fire.
Foxnews will make sure eveyone gets the message.
And look how much harm that is done. I have studied some about Islam(much like other groups bad apples get the attention) and there is a message of tolerance. Similar to bible verses used to justify inhumane actions, the Quran contains them as well. However, the greater message of tolerance and love is the one that should be followed for hate is harm therefore sin. Prior to the modern era, areas under Muslim control tolerated and allowed others to practice their own beliefs this even included Christian churches. The following verses reflect the basis of this tolerance.
There is no compulsion in religion…”(Qur’an, 2:256)
“Had your Lord wanted, all the people on earth would have believed. So will you force people to believe?”(Qur’an, 10:99)
“So warn them: your only task is to warn, you’re not supposed to force them.”(Qur’an, 88:21-22)
“He does not forbid you to deal kindly and justly with anyone who has not fought you for your faith and driven you out of your homes, God loves the just.”(Qur’an, 60:8)

Perhaps Christianity has matured some, but The Inquisition and The Crusade are prime examples of inhumanity justified by Righteousness. Those things do not represent the true message of Christ, love one another. The fanatics who commit atrocities in the name of Islam are justifying themselves in the same way, but it is not the true message either.

Islam encourages reason and logic over ignorance and superstition. Many great scientific discoveries prior to our modern era, were made by Muslims. Alcohol, algebra(including the concept of the number zero), and navigation equipment are just a few of the advances they shared with the world. Even a concept and techniques of personal hygene(showering, bathing, brushing ones teeth) as a method to improve health, were developed by Muslims.

It is unfair to base an opinion, when you do not know what the truth of something is. The same applys to Muslims as it does to Christian, the good ones are following the true message of their faith.

Satanic Priest

“There is no god”

Since: Jul 12

War, WV

#85314 Aug 8, 2012
Yes and Amen wrote:
<quoted text>But then God shows up in your life, and you'll never believe the evilutional lies again!
I truly hope that happens to each n everyone in the world, but
reading the Book tells me this won't be!
No god showed up in your life, and jaysus did not save you your brain is fried from the meth

Since: Feb 12

El Dorado Hills, CA

#85315 Aug 8, 2012
Hocke wrote:
<quoted text>
And look how much harm that is done. I have studied some about Islam(much like other groups bad apples get the attention) and there is a message of tolerance. Similar to bible verses used to justify inhumane actions, the Quran contains them as well. However, the greater message of tolerance and love is the one that should be followed for hate is harm therefore sin. Prior to the modern era, areas under Muslim control tolerated and allowed others to practice their own beliefs this even included Christian churches. The following verses reflect the basis of this tolerance.
There is no compulsion in religion…”(Qur’an, 2:256)
“Had your Lord wanted, all the people on earth would have believed. So will you force people to believe?”(Qur’an, 10:99)
“So warn them: your only task is to warn, you’re not supposed to force them.”(Qur’an, 88:21-22)
“He does not forbid you to deal kindly and justly with anyone who has not fought you for your faith and driven you out of your homes, God loves the just.”(Qur’an, 60:8)
Perhaps Christianity has matured some, but The Inquisition and The Crusade are prime examples of inhumanity justified by Righteousness. Those things do not represent the true message of Christ, love one another. The fanatics who commit atrocities in the name of Islam are justifying themselves in the same way, but it is not the true message either.
Islam encourages reason and logic over ignorance and superstition. Many great scientific discoveries prior to our modern era, were made by Muslims. Alcohol, algebra(including the concept of the number zero), and navigation equipment are just a few of the advances they shared with the world. Even a concept and techniques of personal hygene(showering, bathing, brushing ones teeth) as a method to improve health, were developed by Muslims.
It is unfair to base an opinion, when you do not know what the truth of something is. The same applys to Muslims as it does to Christian, the good ones are following the true message of their faith.
If good ones are following their faith, how does that reconcile with this bible verse. Seems like no one person is good.

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone. Mark 10:18

You're right if is unfair, but what is truth? Do you have the truth? Why would anyone believe your truth? Is any religion truth?
How would you discover you have the truth?

Satanic Priest

“There is no god”

Since: Jul 12

War, WV

#85316 Aug 8, 2012
Yes and Amen wrote:
<quoted text>Whatever you want to believe...
He saved me before the Meth too...
But hold that thought!
Your brain is so fried from the meth that you think god talks to you, there is medicine that will save you

“Breaking the spell ”

Since: Dec 10

of the puppet master

#85317 Aug 8, 2012
defender wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey thanks I had forgotten about old Tiktaalik ... Yet another missing link proven sham!!... Yes bones are found in Tiktaalik's fins ... But what our honest buddies don't tell you is that these bones were NOT attached to the skeleton thus not allowing these so called new legs to support the Tiktaalik on land... And the hits just keep coming!! Nice try though..
Science is not claiming its legs supported it on land. The legs were for walking around on the bottom of the lake or river. But it shows legs can be grown by fish and were at that time. They could evolve to land bearing leg strength.

The theory holds fish like this just came to the edge of the shore to escape predators. That is a major reason animals change(to escape predators). As time rolled on, the fish naturally selected those best at escaping and thus survived to procreate. Those who had the ability to escape were the best at getting onto land. Thus the ones who had good leg strength wins the race of evolution.

Alligators are not so far different than this. Their bodies locomotion is in the same side to side as fish.

“Breaking the spell ”

Since: Dec 10

of the puppet master

#85318 Aug 8, 2012
defender wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey thanks I had forgotten about old Tiktaalik ... Yet another missing link proven sham!!... Yes bones are found in Tiktaalik's fins ... But what our honest buddies don't tell you is that these bones were NOT attached to the skeleton thus not allowing these so called new legs to support the Tiktaalik on land... And the hits just keep coming!! Nice try though..
Wait, are you claiming it is not true they had legs?
Is this how it is going to go down about all of evolution's evidence? You are just going to make baseless claims they are a hoax?

What "they" won't tell you? Who is telling you it is a hoax? Christians? Non scientists with an agenda?

“Breaking the spell ”

Since: Dec 10

of the puppet master

#85319 Aug 8, 2012
Yes and Amen wrote:
<quoted text>"You forget, I do not believe the bibles commands are of good"
No! I did not forget that you believe Nature says it's ok for people to go against nature!
That Lying, stealing, Cheating, and shaking your fist at God is second nature to you, and the Liberal left!
"Does Jesus say for you to be the morality police? I do not remember seeing such in the bible. Please show us the passage that commands you to do this?"
Romans has plenty to say on this subject... but as you've said... you do not believe the Bible
to have Good commands in it, so even if I had a Quote of Jesus telling us to keep our nation clean, you would care anyways!
I will tell you this way... We are on a large boat, floating throgh space!
We've got systems to move our waist out of the cities! Why do we do this?
When you find that answer... you'll have the answer to the question!
"I believe in freedom. If something is immoral but it is of consent between the parties, I do not feel it is my place to force compliance. It hurts no one. It does not affect you one single bit."
Wrong! IF they kept it in their own homes, and never leaked out to the world, then MAYBE!
But it hasn't! Here is just one link of many on the effects upon children in homosexual homes...
Do with it as you will!
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles/Dailey...
" So what would you have suggested to keep "it' from getting a foothold in America?"
First off... We'd have only God fearing people in office... The first time you lied, cheated, messed around in office... would be your last, and the last time you'd hold office!
Like in prop8... the people spoke! and a gay judge overturned it!
That was Wrong! That's like a drugie judge legalizing drugs...
"Would you have done what Hitler tried to do to keep "it' from getting a foothold in Germany?"
You forget! Hitler was a fan of Eugenics, that stems form your friend Derwoods book, and
You can look up the word, and get all the nasty nazi info you want on it!
No! we/I wouldn't kill anyone for.... Anything (Maybe self-defence)...
See! I know Jesus' return is right around the corner, and I don't have to do anything about it...
He will!
That's what we Warn you About...
Believe as you like!
You claim I lie, cheat and steal but have zero evidence of such a claim. Just more bullshit lies from you is all that is. You try to make us atheists look bad by lying yourself? What a joke you are crackhead.

And homosexuality is "leaking" out to you? Is that what made you do homosexual acts?

We hear your false warnings. No need to yell. We hear, we laugh. Now go away.
defender

Mount Vernon, KY

#85320 Aug 8, 2012
Mike Duquette wrote:
<quoted text>Science is not claiming its legs supported it on land. The legs were for walking around on the bottom of the lake or river. But it shows legs can be grown by fish and were at that time. They could evolve to land bearing leg strength.

The theory holds fish like this just came to the edge of the shore to escape predators. That is a major reason animals change(to escape predators). As time rolled on, the fish naturally selected those best at escaping and thus survived to procreate. Those who had the ability to escape were the best at getting onto land. Thus the ones who had good leg strength wins the race of evolution.

Alligators are not so far different than this. Their bodies locomotion is in the same side to side as fish.
So they developed lungs.. Balance complete with equilibrium from a process of mutation (selection) that cannot and never has been proven to add information to the gene pool?... Why legs? Why not wings or better yet a rocket jet pack? After all we have flying fish right?.... Tiktaalik fin bones were not attached to it's skeleton and no lobed fish have been found to either... Missing link?... Not even close...
defender

Mount Vernon, KY

#85321 Aug 8, 2012
Mike Duquette wrote:
<quoted text>Wait, are you claiming it is not true they had legs?
Is this how it is going to go down about all of evolution's evidence? You are just going to make baseless claims they are a hoax?

What "they" won't tell you? Who is telling you it is a hoax? Christians? Non scientists with an agenda?
Yes that exactly what I said... It's a fact... Look it up for yourself...

“Breaking the spell ”

Since: Dec 10

of the puppet master

#85322 Aug 8, 2012
defender wrote:
<quoted text>
Tikkaatlik is to this day pointed to by evolutionist as a transitional fossil... Yet we know this is false... That would be a lie... Coelacanth was pointed to for years as the great missing link from fish to land... Oops... Wrong again... Water it down all you wish...
What you clearly do not understand about evolution is, what is a possible transition species, does not mean it cannot have branches. Look at the tree of life.
There are many kinds of apes living today. Some ape species have died out, others did not. Some evolved, some did not.
You are looking at evolution in some straight line. The tree of life is not a straight line.
Learn the theory and get back to us.

“Breaking the spell ”

Since: Dec 10

of the puppet master

#85323 Aug 8, 2012
Spaceship earth wrote:
<quoted text>
To humiliate someone. Yet God wants to see everyone naked just as Adam and Eve in the beginning of the book. A world wide nudist camp.
Why does God want to see everyone naked?
God is checking my junk out right now. Can a guy have a little privacy?

“Breaking the spell ”

Since: Dec 10

of the puppet master

#85324 Aug 8, 2012
defender wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes that exactly what I said... It's a fact... Look it up for yourself...
You are making the claim, thus you have the onus of proof. Don't you know how this works?

“Breaking the spell ”

Since: Dec 10

of the puppet master

#85325 Aug 8, 2012
defender wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes that exactly what I said... It's a fact... Look it up for yourself...
I have seen documentaries on the discovery. Nothing you claim showed any indication the legs were of another animal. And just what animal might it have been, as there were no land dwelling animals at the time? Just what are you claiming they are? Your vague claims are not cutting it.
Known fact

Cape Canaveral, FL

#85326 Aug 8, 2012
Probability and Spontaneous Proteins
What chance is there that the correct amino acids would come together to form a protein molecule? It could be likened to having a big, thoroughly mixed pile containing equal numbers of red beans and white beans. There are also over 100 different varieties of beans. Now, if you plunged a scoop into this pile, what do you think you would get? To get the beans that represent the basic components of a protein, you would have to scoop up only red ones—no white ones at all! Also, your scoop must contain only 20 varieties of the red beans, and each one must be in a specific, preassigned place in the scoop. In the world of protein, a single mistake in any one of these requirements would cause the protein that is produced to fail to function properly. Would any amount of stirring and scooping in our hypothetical bean pile have given the right combination? No. Then how would it have been possible in the hypothetical organic soup?
The proteins needed for life have very complex molecules. What is the chance of even a simple protein molecule forming at random in an organic soup? Evolutionists acknowledge it to be only one in 10/113 (1 followed by 113 zeros). But any event that has one chance in just 10/50 is dismissed by mathematicians as never happening. An idea of the odds, or probability, involved is seen in the fact that the number 10/113 is larger than the estimated total number of all the atoms in the universe!
Some proteins serve as structural materials and others as enzymes. The latter speed up needed chemical reactions in the cell. Without such help, the cell would die. Not just a few, but 2,000 proteins serving as enzymes are needed for the cell’s activity. What are the chances of obtaining all of these at random? One chance in 10/40,000!“An outrageously small probability,” Hoyle asserts,“that could not be faced even if the whole universe consisted of organic soup.” He adds:“If one is not prejudiced either by social beliefs or by a scientific training into the conviction that life originated [spontaneously] on the Earth, this simple calculation wipes the idea entirely out of court.”
However, the chances actually are far fewer than this “outrageously small” figure indicates. There must be a membrane enclosing the cell. But this membrane is extremely complex, made up of protein, sugar and fat molecules. As evolutionist Leslie Orgel writes:“Modern cell membranes include channels and pumps which specifically control the influx and efflux of nutrients, waste products, metal ions and so on. These specialised channels involve highly specific proteins, molecules that could not have been present at the very beginning of the evolution of life.”

“Breaking the spell ”

Since: Dec 10

of the puppet master

#85327 Aug 8, 2012
defender wrote:
<quoted text>
So they developed lungs.. Balance complete with equilibrium from a process of mutation (selection) that cannot and never has been proven to add information to the gene pool?... Why legs? Why not wings or better yet a rocket jet pack? After all we have flying fish right?.... Tiktaalik fin bones were not attached to it's skeleton and no lobed fish have been found to either... Missing link?... Not even close...
Gills are just a variation of lung. It is not as giant of a leap as you make claim.

Your jokes are just showing you cannot have a civil debate.

http://www.nature.ca/notebooks/english/lobefi...

http://ajrcmb.atsjournals.org/content/31/1/8....

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#85328 Aug 9, 2012
Spaceship earth wrote:
<quoted text>
If good ones are following their faith, how does that reconcile with this bible verse. Seems like no one person is good.
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone. Mark 10:18
You're right if is unfair, but what is truth? Do you have the truth? Why would anyone believe your truth? Is any religion truth?
How would you discover you have the truth?
Man's eternal search for truth; a topic of philosophy since we began to think of such things. We will seek truth all of our lives, and yet never attain truth. It is not truth that is my point, it is understanding. My arguement is to fellow Christians, to strive for a better understanding of their faith. I ask no one to believe, only to contemplate about love and hate.

About your verse quote, therein lies the puzzle of word usage. If you did a search on verses containing the word good or being good, how many are there? Just a simple rhetorical question, no need to answer. Consider Matthew 5:16 which utilizes good.
-Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
There is also a great deal of works that talk about being a good Christian, which could have been derived from the terms godly and godliness. This refers to what Christians strive for, not become.

On the topics of love and hate consider the following from Matthew 22:36-40
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Verse 40 is still being debated about it's meaning, but I feel that the importance of love is made clear. In my opinion, if one is using bible verses to justify hate(Leviticus and Romans are frequently used), then how is one doing good works?

In closing, I only speak of Christianity. I am not here to argue which religion(or none at all) is right, only to discuss misconceptions.

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