Dumb medical questions

[Woobies]

Mr_Man wrote:

<quoted text>
After thinking about what you said, it makes sense that through subsequent cell divisions the origin itself would be sud-divided over and over, spreading out as the body grows. I guess I wondered because our vertical center is so easy to see, that being our left and right sides. I just wondered where the horizontal center, between top and bottom, crossed that vertical line.
Like the thread title says.. dumb question!

There ya go. That is exactly it. We cannot look at it as being so tangible. It is an constantly evolving and mutating event. No center or "master" cell exists.

[Woobies]

Mr_Man wrote:

<quoted text>
OK! I have figured out how to ask the question! If the cell has divided twice, which gives us 4 cells total at this point. Now, we do a surgical procedure and implant a small black marble in the center of those 4 cells. Now let the body grow to completion. Where is the black marble?
Thanks, Frequent Reader, for saying it's not dumb, and thanks Luvr, OW, and Woobies for jumping in and trying to help also. It was on my mind, and it gave me something to read other than the race baiting on the other threads.

Okay,.........the black marble is constant. It it like talking apples and oranges. You are putting an innate thing into a living organism and expecting it to "hold" position for identification purposes. It does not work like that either. The information of the cell is cleaved completely in half. It gives information to both cells it turns into. Then, those two cleave into four, then eight, sixteen, etc, etc. Kinda hard to wrap the head around I know. Just know that your entire DNA is passed from one cleavage to the next and in each cell there is identification from the stem cell to shut down genes and to turn others on. It is what makes it a cell that forms your nervous system or your liver organ or skin or anything that comprises you.

Still not getting it?

[Mr_Man]

Woobies wrote:

<quoted text>Okay,.........the black marble is constant. It it like talking apples and oranges. You are putting an innate thing into a living organism and expecting it to "hold" position for identification purposes. It does not work like that either. The information of the cell is cleaved completely in half. It gives information to both cells it turns into. Then, those two cleave into four, then eight, sixteen, etc, etc. Kinda hard to wrap the head around I know. Just know that your entire DNA is passed from one cleavage to the next and in each cell there is identification from the stem cell to shut down genes and to turn others on. It is what makes it a cell that forms your nervous system or your liver organ or skin or anything that comprises you.
Still not getting it?

I'm with you on all that you said about the cell division, the information, the genes. I understand all that. My head is wrapped around it.

I'm having trouble with the idea that there is no "point in space" (in the finished body) around which the initial cell division took place.

I can accept the fact that no one ever looked into it, or that we don't know.

[Buddy B]

I try not to do any thinking, it gives, me a headache.

[Mr_Man]

Buddy B wrote:

I try not to do any thinking, it gives, me a headache.

Good morning, Buddy. I can't stop. It's been this way for as far back as I can remember. The gears are always turning.

[Buddy B]

Mr_Man wrote:

<quoted text>
Good morning, Buddy. I can't stop. It's been this way for as far back as I can remember. The gears are always turning.

Good morning mr_ Man, maybe thats why I have migrains

[Mr_Man]

Buddy B wrote:

<quoted text>Good morning mr_ Man, maybe thats why I have migrains

I'm sorry to hear that you suffer migraines. So does my daughter. I've experienced migraine auras several times in the past 15 years, but no headache associated with it. Very startling the first time it happened.

[Woobies]

Mr_Man wrote:

<quoted text>
I'm sorry to hear that you suffer migraines. So does my daughter. I've experienced migraine auras several times in the past 15 years, but no headache associated with it. Very startling the first time it happened.

85% of those can be fixed.

[Mr_Man]

Woobies wrote:

<quoted text>85% of those can be fixed.

Which can be fixed? Migraines, or auras? I daughter would be thrilled if she could be helped. My auras don't bother me now that I've had a few. I just sit down and watch the light show until they are over with.

[Mr_Man]

Sorry. My daughter.

[Woobies]

Mr_Man wrote:

<quoted text>
Which can be fixed? Migraines, or auras? I daughter would be thrilled if she could be helped. My auras don't bother me now that I've had a few. I just sit down and watch the light show until they are over with.

I am speaking of migraines.

Sir, if you are able to see auras ...PLEASE, read up on them and learn to decipher them. That is a most amazing gift!!! I have only seen one in all of my years. I have never done drugs but, I thought that if I did, that is what is must be like! LOL. Seriously, please educate yourself on those and you will be amazed as to what you learn about people. You can help many people with that kind of gift!

[Grisham]

Woobies wrote:

<quoted text>I am speaking of migraines.
Sir, if you are able to see auras ...PLEASE, read up on them and learn to decipher them. That is a most amazing gift!!! I have only seen one in all of my years. I have never done drugs but, I thought that if I did, that is what is must be like! LOL. Seriously, please educate yourself on those and you will be amazed as to what you learn about people. You can help many people with that kind of gift!

Tell about it.

[Mr_Man]

Woobies wrote:

<quoted text>I am speaking of migraines.
Sir, if you are able to see auras ...PLEASE, read up on them and learn to decipher them. That is a most amazing gift!!!

IF you're speaking of psychic or clairvoyant aura readings, I don't see those kind. Although I can identify a BS'er when I'm around one and I'm pretty good at reading a room full of people and judging who to expect trouble from, so maybe I am a little clairvoyant.:)

My auras are scintillating scotoma, it begins with a bright small speck of color (in either my left or right field of vision - in both eyes), then an ever increasing blind spot with colorful zigzag perimeter that eventually engulfs 1/2 of my entire field of vision, then it's gone. It takes about 20 minutes to run it's course. I've learned when driving to pull over when I first see the bright speck, and park until it's over with. No pain involved, it's all visual.

[Mr_Man]

This site plays a flash video that describes it pretty well.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/migraine-aur...

[Woobies]

I sure would like to hear what OPEN MIND has to say on this subject.

[toilet]

Mr_Man wrote:

1) After the fertilized egg begins to divide.. Does anyone know where the "center", or the initial point of cell division, would be in the adult human body?
2) From this initial cell division, does the cell growth radiate outward from this center point in all directions, or vertically, or in quadrants? Or different directions in different stages?
These are examples of things that keep me awake at night. Don't worry, I have more..!

To answer the first question. It is not human yet it is an egg. the egg splits. it is not a body. Have you ever seen a chicken egg with two yokes. Some have three yokes. The yoke is what is fertilized as you put it and it growes from there.it growes no bigger than its shell. the water or white in a chicken egg is its food. it growes in. need to go back to school dont you.

[Open-Mind]

Mr_Man wrote:

1) After the fertilized egg begins to divide.. Does anyone know where the "center", or the initial point of cell division, would be in the adult human body?
2) From this initial cell division, does the cell growth radiate outward from this center point in all directions, or vertically, or in quadrants? Or different directions in different stages?
These are examples of things that keep me awake at night. Don't worry, I have more..!

this is a little late and may have been answered already as i have yet to read all the posts. First of all there is still quiet a bit to discover in embryology esp in human as studying it is controversial. There is no center after fertilization at last not after the first few divisions. at about the 100 cell stage the ICM is the central location for the cells that are going to begin differentiation. The patteren of morphogenesis is complex and involves cellular communication pathways (mostly G protein) and induction. Needless to say science discovers a new pathway almost weekly it is a very fast growing field. There is no complete fate map for human development yet maybe another 20-50 years....just my personal guess....the proteome is far more complex than the genome.

[Buddy B]

Open-Mind wrote:

<quoted text> this is a little late and may have been answered already as i have yet to read all the posts. First of all there is still quiet a bit to discover in embryology esp in human as studying it is controversial. There is no center after fertilization at last not after the first few divisions. at about the 100 cell stage the ICM is the central location for the cells that are going to begin differentiation. The patteren of morphogenesis is complex and involves cellular communication pathways (mostly G protein) and induction. Needless to say science discovers a new pathway almost weekly it is a very fast growing field. There is no complete fate map for human development yet maybe another 20-50 years....just my personal guess....the proteome is far more complex than the genome.

OMG, those big words made my headache come back

[Mr_Man]

Open-Mind wrote:

<quoted text>There is no complete fate map for human development yet maybe another 20-50 years....just my personal guess....the proteome is far more complex than the genome.

It is easier to see the pattern of development in other forms of nature, such as the nautilus shell, or the seeds in a sunflower. They follow a pattern of proportional growth, the fibonacci sequence or ratio. Human growth, the ratios of the lengths of one bone to another, patterns of features, like nose to mouth, to eye spacings, also follow these ratios. In my minds eye, I just wondered what was the starting point of it all. Thanks, Open Mind for jumping in and providing more info to think about. Maybe the fate map for humans that you spoke of will be worked out one of these days.

[Mr_Man]

toilet wrote:

<quoted text>need to go back to school dont you.

I'll ignore the cheap shot and agree that the learning process should never end.