King's legacy still cause of debate

Jan 19, 2014 Full story: USA Today 1,088

It is a large legacy that looms over the past five decades, from the prophetic "I Have a Dream" speech delivered during the March on Washington to his last campaign taking a stand for underpaid black sanitation workers in Memphis, the city where he was slain.

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Since: Aug 09

Minneapolis, MN

#1109 Jul 18, 2014
Continued from above...
Savant wrote:
<quoted text>I also think
You think? Do you think? When did that start? Today? You had better go take your medications
Savant wrote:
<quoted text>that West is right that at least in societies in which one of the Abrahamic traditions is the majority faith, the prophetic tradition within that Abrahamic religion. Yes, even some Muslims may fit that description--like Abdul Ghaffer Khan of India, probably many of those clerics who supported who supported Mossadegh, etc.
I suspect that in countries whose religion is not predominantly Abrahamic, there are equivalents of the prophets. I know that India has an ancient philosophical tradition preceding the Greeks (though convention has it that Greece INVENTED philosophy), I suspect she also has he own prophets. Gandhi seems to be such a person. But I know far less about Hindu or Budhists traditions. So, I can't be sure
This is probably the first time I heard you admit that you do not know EVERYTHING, self-deification. Thanks.

As I said above, Gandhi was a living saint. But he never claimed to be such. And he was embarrassed by it. Mother Theresa was a Mother Divine but not a saint. Now the Catholic Church is in the process of determining if she was saint. Maybe they are completed the process. I have not been paying much attention to it. But one thing that is essential to designating a person a saint in the Catholic Church that the person must be proven to have committed miracles or closely associated with miracles in some intimate way. Divine intervention id required in order to commit a miracle; thus rendering a person a saint. Gossips and rumors and mere dreams are insufficient. That must be hard concrete evidence or so much eye witness evidence as to be equivalent to concrete physical evidence. This is a serious matter that cannot be taken lightly.

Nat Turner had visions and dreams and perhaps hallucinations as did Apostle Paul. Now call Nat Turner a prophet. Call him an Apostle. Call him a saint. He kilt a bunch of racist slave holding crakKkas. That made him a prophet. EVERY ONE of the great African leaders and resisters to slavery were deeply devout and religious men and women. Africa has NEVER produced an atheistic leader, a secularist leader, etc. Some gave lip service to secularism. That was usually dictated by a religiously diverse community/nation. But NONE were fools enough to mess with the peoples Beliefs and religions. When that idiot attempted to do so in Egypt recently, he was promptly kicked out of office to good effect. Long Live Egypt!!! Long Live the Egyptian Revolution!!!

King was a nice enough guy. But he was not a prophet. We have no evidence that he was. He certainly never made such a claim. None of his friends, family, close associates claimed MLKJ was a prophet. MLK was I think a fourth generation preacher and very religious. But he was not a prophet nor even a saint like Gandhi. See, idiot, once you start to put words into King's mouth you end up way off track way out there in left field claiming MLKJ was a leftist. Maybe. But YOU are an idiot and a liar and there is no doubt about it

Since: Aug 09

Minneapolis, MN

#1110 Jul 18, 2014
Any president, be he black or be he white or be he poker dot, who would bomb the Great Man Made River deserves to be impeached. And any voter, be he black or be he white or be he poker dot, who re-elects such a president deserves to be disfranchised.

“Yes WE Can! Yes we Will!”

Since: Jul 07

Baltimore, Md.

#1112 Jul 24, 2014
Abdurratln wrote:
<quoted text>
Idiot, I am an expert of over 40 years intimate experience in all aspects of the African Freedom Movement aka Civil Rights Movement. I do not need to do "research" I have lived and led it.
Typical anti-intellectual response.
But he ha not done research on the thought of Dr. King--the subject of this thread--even though he keeps pontificating on the subject. I have done such research.

Since: Aug 09

Minneapolis, MN

#1113 Jul 24, 2014
Savant wrote:
<quoted text> Typical anti-intellectual response.
But he ha not done research on the thought of Dr. King--the subject of this thread--even though he keeps pontificating on the subject. I have done such research.
Prove your so-called research by offering proper citations.

“Yes WE Can! Yes we Will!”

Since: Jul 07

Baltimore, Md.

#1115 Jul 29, 2014
Abdurratln wrote:
<quoted text>
Prove your so-called research by offering proper citations.
given proper sources many times in this and other threads, and not just on the thought of Dr. King. At any rate, I've published work on King through a respectable academic publisher, which a number of AA Forum folk have actually seen, and which has been reviewed favorably by established King scholars (which I do not claim to be) like Lewis Baldwin and Rufus Burrows, Jr.(his most important work being, GOD AND HUMAN DIGNITY: PERSONALISM, THEOLOGY AND ETHICS OF MARTIH LUTHER KING, JR)

Since: Aug 09

Minneapolis, MN

#1116 Jul 29, 2014
Savant wrote:
<quoted text> given proper sources many times in this and other threads, and not just on the thought of Dr. King. At any rate, I've published work on King through a respectable academic publisher, which a number of AA Forum folk have actually seen, and which has been reviewed favorably by established King scholars (which I do not claim to be) like Lewis Baldwin and Rufus Burrows, Jr.(his most important work being, GOD AND HUMAN DIGNITY: PERSONALISM, THEOLOGY AND ETHICS OF MARTIH LUTHER KING, JR)
Dude, here is one correct way to cite your sources: https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/7... . There are other ways. I just want to show one way, the way I use most often. I have never seen you do any of that. The reason this is such and important issue is because Chancellor Williams wrote a big ole book full of lies. A lot of ignorant people took his words as gospel because he was a teacher at Howard. But none of it is credible in scholarly circles because none of it is substantiated with proper citation. All you are doing is perpetrating the same fraud that Williams did. Others are impressed when you claim to be a tenured professor. I am not impressed and will not ever be impressed with you until you show minimum scholarly standards. And you have never done that.

Since: Aug 13

Location hidden

#1117 Jul 29, 2014
Abdul the Moslem talking about slavery. Oh the irony! Moslems enslaved more people than even the Christian Euros did. More than the Romans. More than anyone.

Moslems committed history's greatest genocide.

The activities of Moslems in the world today are anti-freedom. Women in purdah, men with no culture, everything sublimated to the cult of sticking your ass in the air 5 times a day. F'ing ludicrous, it is.

As for Jesus... unlike Mohamhead, Jesus was NOT a pedophile, rapist, mass murderer, genocidal criminal, organized crime boss, thief, war monger and goat humper.

“Yes WE Can! Yes we Will!”

Since: Jul 07

Baltimore, Md.

#1119 Jul 30, 2014
Abdurratln wrote:
<quoted text>
Dude, here is one correct way to cite your sources: https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/7... . There are other ways. I just want to show one way, the way I use most often. I have never seen you do any of that. The reason this is such and important issue is because Chancellor Williams wrote a big ole book full of lies. A lot of ignorant people took his words as gospel because he was a teacher at Howard. But none of it is credible in scholarly circles because none of it is substantiated with proper citation. All you are doing is perpetrating the same fraud that Williams did. Others are impressed when you claim to be a tenured professor. I am not impressed and will not ever be impressed with you until you show minimum scholarly standards. And you have never done that.
LOL! I've published articles in about a dozen scholarly journals, and several scholarly anthologies. I've have books out in academically reputable publishing companies, and this simpleton thinks he can teach me about proper methods of scholarly citation. Next he will try to lecture me on Plato and Augustine. LOL:! Yeah, right. When you learn how to read Nkrumah.

“Yes WE Can! Yes we Will!”

Since: Jul 07

Baltimore, Md.

#1120 Jul 30, 2014
Abdurratln wrote:
<quoted text>
Dude, here is one correct way to cite your sources: https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/7... . There are other ways. I just want to show one way, the way I use most often. I have never seen you do any of that. The reason this is such and important issue is because Chancellor Williams wrote a big ole book full of lies. A lot of ignorant people took his words as gospel because he was a teacher at Howard. But none of it is credible in scholarly circles because none of it is substantiated with proper citation. All you are doing is perpetrating the same fraud that Williams did. Others are impressed when you claim to be a tenured professor. I am not impressed and will not ever be impressed with you until you show minimum scholarly standards. And you have never done that.
Unfortunately, Assdurratin doesn't know what scholarly standards are, hasn't even a clue. As for the so-called "fraud" he alleges I perpetrate on the thought of King (especially with regard to King's democratic socialism), it's remarkable that no such fraud has been discovered by KING SCHOLARS--many of whom were working on this stuff since I was in high school (if not earlier). Rufus Burrows and Lewis Baldwin--two of the leading contemporary King scholars who saw my manuscript before it appeared--not only didn't discover any fraud, but regard my work is highly original, pioneering contribution to King scholarship. Thus far NO King scholar whose reviews I've read have CHALLENGED me on the issue of King being a democratic socialist.(In fact, some elder King scholars even pointed me in directions where I could discover more about the Christian and democratic socialist dimensions of King's vision of the Beloved Community. One very well known King scholar even personally emailed me with suggestions of developing further the Personalist philosophical foundations Kingian socialism in his vision of community. The thought this important that I explore this further if for no other reason than that Personalism was King's basic philosophical position, and the perspective from which he critique's Marx's materialism, as well as both Communism and capitalism.
Thus far, NO King scholar has accused me of fraud. None has suggested that I didn't know what I was talking about--not even some who DISAGREED with me.
And I'm supposed to be swayed by the ignorant ranting of an Assdurratin who hasn't even done one tenth of the research I've done on King, and who claims to be an Nkrumahist but shows less philosophical understanding of Nkrumah than I had at age 19? Really?

Since: Aug 09

Minneapolis, MN

#1121 Jul 30, 2014
Savant wrote:
<quoted text> LOL! I've published articles in about a dozen scholarly journals, and several scholarly anthologies. I've have books out in academically reputable publishing companies, and this simpleton thinks he can teach me about proper methods of scholarly citation. Next he will try to lecture me on Plato and Augustine. LOL:! Yeah, right. When you learn how to read Nkrumah.
B!tch, you still do not know how to cite your sources?

Since: Aug 09

Minneapolis, MN

#1122 Jul 30, 2014
Savant wrote:
<quoted text> Unfortunately, Assdurratin doesn't know what scholarly standards are, hasn't even a clue. As for the so-called "fraud" he alleges I perpetrate on the thought of King (especially with regard to King's democratic socialism), it's remarkable that no such fraud has been discovered by KING SCHOLARS--many of whom were working on this stuff since I was in high school (if not earlier). Rufus Burrows and Lewis Baldwin--two of the leading contemporary King scholars who saw my manuscript before it appeared--not only didn't discover any fraud, but regard my work is highly original, pioneering contribution to King scholarship. Thus far NO King scholar whose reviews I've read have CHALLENGED me on the issue of King being a democratic socialist.(In fact, some elder King scholars even pointed me in directions where I could discover more about the Christian and democratic socialist dimensions of King's vision of the Beloved Community. One very well known King scholar even personally emailed me with suggestions of developing further the Personalist philosophical foundations Kingian socialism in his vision of community. The thought this important that I explore this further if for no other reason than that Personalism was King's basic philosophical position, and the perspective from which he critique's Marx's materialism, as well as both Communism and capitalism.
Thus far, NO King scholar has accused me of fraud. None has suggested that I didn't know what I was talking about--not even some who DISAGREED with me.
And I'm supposed to be swayed by the ignorant ranting of an Assdurratin who hasn't even done one tenth of the research I've done on King, and who claims to be an Nkrumahist but shows less philosophical understanding of Nkrumah than I had at age 19? Really?
I do not consider myself a "King scholar" I have better things to occupy my mind with. But I know when you are a liar. And I know you do not cite your sources because the sources do not support the lies you are telling.

“Yes WE Can! Yes we Will!”

Since: Jul 07

Baltimore, Md.

#1124 Jul 31, 2014
Abdurratln wrote:
<quoted text>
B!tch, you still do not know how to cite your sources?
If that were true no scholarly journals would publish what I've written. Yet I've been published in SOICAL SCIENCE INFORMATION, PHILLSOSPHY EAST AND WEST, PHILOSOPHY AND SOCIAL CRITICISM, PHILOSOPHICAL FORUM, QUEST: JOURNAL OF AFRICAN PHILOSOPHY, CONTINENTAL PHILOSOPHY REVIEW and even PRESENCE AFRICAINES.

And there are a good number of others I could mention. Unlike your blogs these are REFEREED publications. Also, you can't get a doctoral dissertation by your thesis committed Vanderbilt University without proper citation of sources--not to mention a rigorous oral defense of your thesis.
Indeed, even in the qualifying exams that must be passed BEFORE you're eligible to write your thesis (or even before offering a PROPOSAL), any serious issue with citations or the quality of your arguments would get you stopped immediately. In short, I really do have a university education...enough to know that you would be discredited as well by referring to your adversary as a "b!tch" rather than addressing his arguments

“Yes WE Can! Yes we Will!”

Since: Jul 07

Baltimore, Md.

#1125 Jul 31, 2014
Abdurratln wrote:
<quoted text>
I do not consider myself a "King scholar" I have better things to occupy my mind with. But I know when you are a liar. And I know you do not cite your sources because the sources do not support the lies you are telling.
Your problem is your inferiority complex. Or maybe it's not a complex. Maybe you are inferior. But I've cited sources numerous times, often even including page numbers. I'm not going to go out my way to supply you with a bibliography, especially with your low level of literacy. But I'm through with you since you've NOTHING to contribute to a discussion of King's legacy--the topic of this thread.

Since: Aug 09

Minneapolis, MN

#1126 Jul 31, 2014
Savant wrote:
<quoted text> If that were true no scholarly journals would publish what I've written. Yet I've been published in SOICAL SCIENCE INFORMATION, PHILLSOSPHY EAST AND WEST, PHILOSOPHY AND SOCIAL CRITICISM, PHILOSOPHICAL FORUM, QUEST: JOURNAL OF AFRICAN PHILOSOPHY, CONTINENTAL PHILOSOPHY REVIEW and even PRESENCE AFRICAINES.
So what? You still do not meet minimum standards. I know nothing about any of those rags you mention. Obviously they are not about much. When you begin to meet minmum standards you writings will appear in prestigious publications.

Look at Chancellor Williams. He was from Howard U. He wrote at least one great big ole book. It was impossible to cite that book because it was full of lies. No serious or prestigious publishers would ever touch any of that crap. Rashidi is somewhat better. He writes some interesting stuff. But although he does not always cite his sources, his sources can be traced. Williams sources cannot be traced because they are lies just like yours are lies. If you do not want to be called a liar you need to cite your sources. Do not try to bluff me and tell me to go look them up. I will not waste my time like that. I do not really like wasting my time debating you on this. It is obvious that you have mis-quoted King. Admit it and own your own errors and mistakes. There is nothing to debate.

I have written a revolutionary history thesis. My sources are cited. But I go one step further. I go past the usually secondary sources to the primary sources. And I do not stop with English translations of the sources. I read them in the original language so that I can detect flaws in translations. This has taken many years to outline. It will probably be about a year before I publish preliminary findings. But it is extremely important to me to make sure that I meet the highest standards. I have a worldwide audience. And this will include the leading universities in the world. The book that I have written in my head, and will some have a completed outline on paper is extremely valuable and earth breaking. A hundred years from now, scholars will cite my name as the leading scholar on this subject. It is not necessary for me to brag. The quality of my work speaks for itself. And so far, I have had nothing but positive feedback. No one will ever have occasion to call me a liar and question my integrity, GOD-Willing. That is what is most important to me. If I am not sure about an issue, I simply refrain from publishing until I find the answers.
Savant wrote:
<quoted text> And there are a good number of others I could mention. Unlike your blogs these are REFEREED publications. Also, you can't get a doctoral dissertation by your thesis committed Vanderbilt University without proper citation of sources--not to mention a rigorous oral defense of your thesis.
For all I know you do not have a doctorate. I do know that Chancellor Williams did not properly cite his sources because he had none just like you have none to support your lies about MLK. And Williams was a high-powered professor at Howard. But he did not do his minimum duty in terms of telling the truth and citing his sources. It is a dam shame and disgrace that I have to come here and tell people not to trust what Williams wrote. I do not like doing this. But I have to do it.
Savant wrote:
<quoted text>Indeed, even in the qualifying exams that must be passed BEFORE you're eligible to write your thesis (or even before offering a PROPOSAL), any serious issue with citations or the quality of your arguments would get you stopped immediately. In short, I really do have a university education...you would be discredited as well by referring to your adversary as a "b!tch" rather than addressing his arguments
I do not even know your name, crybaby b!tch. If you do not like being called a b!tch, publish your name. This is not a scholarly forum. This is popular discussion and exchange of ideas

Since: Aug 09

Minneapolis, MN

#1127 Jul 31, 2014
Savant wrote:
<quoted text>
Your problem is your inferiority complex. Or maybe it's not a complex. Maybe you are inferior. But I've cited sources numerous times, often even including page numbers. I'm not going to go out my way to supply you with a bibliography, especially with your low level of literacy. But I'm through with you since you've NOTHING to contribute to a discussion of King's legacy--the topic of this thread.
What page did MLK claim to be a socialist on?

Since: Aug 13

Location hidden

#1128 Jul 31, 2014
Abdul has an Abeed complex.

“Yes WE Can! Yes we Will!”

Since: Jul 07

Baltimore, Md.

#1131 Aug 1, 2014
Insect Trust wrote:
Abdul has an Abeed complex.
He has an inferiority complex. One of the earliest pieces of writing in which the FUTURE Dr. king (for he was still a grad student) in which he says he favors socialism is a letter to his fiancée, Coretta Scott.

Coretta, it seems, was also a socialist; and she had introduced Martin to LOOKING BACKWARD, novel by socialist writer, Bellamy. In 1952, after writing Coretta a lot of poetic love talk, he states to her "I imagine you already know that I am much more socialistic in my economic theory than capitalistic" (p. 36, AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR.). He goes on to say in his letter to Coretta that he acknowledges the useful role capitalism played historically in bringing down feudalism and the power of the old nobility. But he insists that "today capitalism has out-lived its usefulness. It has brought about a system that takes necessities from the masses to give luxuries to the classes."

“Yes WE Can! Yes we Will!”

Since: Jul 07

Baltimore, Md.

#1132 Aug 1, 2014
Interestingly enough, King was born the year of the crash which precipitated the Great Depression. So, he spent his early childhood years under the shadow of the economic blight. Though he lived in relative comfort, he remembered the breadlines. And he reflects that "I can see the effects of this early childhood experience on my ANTICAPITALIST FEELINGS."(AUTOBIOGRAPHY, p 2., my italics). I do wonder if he isn't reading his later sentiments into his childhood past. Or maybe that was the beginning of what would evoled into Kingian Christian socialism.

Since: Aug 09

Minneapolis, MN

#1133 Aug 1, 2014
Savant wrote:
Interestingly enough, King was born the year of the crash which precipitated the Great Depression. So, he spent his early childhood years under the shadow of the economic blight. Though he lived in relative comfort, he remembered the breadlines. And he reflects that "I can see the effects of this early childhood experience on my ANTICAPITALIST FEELINGS."(AUTOBIOGRAPHY, p 2., my italics). I do wonder if he isn't reading his later sentiments into his childhood past. Or maybe that was the beginning of what would evoled into Kingian Christian socialism
Thanks, bro. Now, I can follow you. As soon as possible, maybe later today, I will look that up, GOD-Willing.

You know, I think everybody who lived through those Depression years had an anti-capitalist feeling to some degree. Of course uneducated people did not know what capitalism in relation to any alternatives such as socialism and/or Islamic economics. But they knew something was rotten in Jordan.

Also, I think we ought to be mindful that during those years, fascism rose just as it is rising now in Europe due in no small measure to the present failings of capitalism. That is and has always been mainly a European problem. Closer to home, that is the African Nation, we see two things happening. One, In the USA, the Progressive Movement collapses. And I do not necessarily mean the leftist or socialist movement. I have not studied that issue enough to evaluate it. But, I am talking about the populist movement which was characterized by the collapse of the People's Party. This is something nobody wants to talk about for fear that it will bring about ideas that this rotten system strongly opposes.

But we need to remember that there was once a People's Party in the USA.(still is in various small degrees).( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Party... (United_States)). I hav3e some small knowledge about this. But I would appreciate any additional information anybody can share with us. For me this is an ongoing research project.

In the Saint Louis area, the People's Party had a major manifestation in East Saint Louis of race riot fame. At first, I see it appear as the People's Improvement Party in ESL, led by progressive minded whites. In the nearby all black village of Brooklyn there emerged about the same time the Black Majority Party. Thus Black Power is not a new idea.

The interesting part of this history and why we as Africans really need to take a thorough look at this history is the Black majority Party merged with the People's Improvement Party to form the People's Party.[Credit Bro. Dr. Sundiata (University of Illinois) for giving us the keys to this history in his America's First Black Town.( http://www.amazon.com/Americas-First-Black-To... )]

Like it or not, around the time of World War I, the progressive whites (all across America) found themselves in competition with the black immigrant workers who came north often as scab labor. This is what fueled the East Saint Louis race riot of 1917.( http://www.eslarp.uiuc.edu/ibex/archive/nunes... )

What needs to be farther researched is the question of the extent that this started the disfranchise movement against African voters. What is already known (according to my own research) is that the progressive whites all across America turned on Africans which contributed to the end of the People's Party. They mostly joined the Dummyrat Party and began the process of moving it to the left. At the same time, those very same leftists led the disfranchisement movement of Africans such that by the time of MLK, Jr. there was a need to begin to re-enfranchise African voters.

One other very important point is in this chaos, Pan-Africanists such as Marcus Garvey found themselves in conflict with the white left. This is merely an outline as thee is much more to be said about all this, especially how all this impacted Kwame Nkrumah who came to the USA in the 1930s.

Since: Aug 09

Minneapolis, MN

#1134 Aug 1, 2014
Savant wrote:
<quoted text> He has an inferiority complex. One of the earliest pieces of writing in which the FUTURE Dr. king (for he was still a grad student) in which he says he favors socialism is a letter to his fiancée, Coretta Scott.
Coretta, it seems, was also a socialist; and she had introduced Martin to LOOKING BACKWARD, novel by socialist writer, Bellamy. In 1952, after writing Coretta a lot of poetic love talk, he states to her "I imagine you already know that I am much more socialistic in my economic theory than capitalistic" (p. 36, AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF MARTIN LUTHER KING, JR.). He goes on to say in his letter to Coretta that he acknowledges the useful role capitalism played historically in bringing down feudalism and the power of the old nobility. But he insists that "today capitalism has out-lived its usefulness. It has brought about a system that takes necessities from the masses to give luxuries to the classes."
Bro., that falls far short of declaring that he was a socialist. Remember how you confused the mood of the word "Marxian" with socialist when we were discussing Nkrumahism? I won't call you a lie on this point. But it seems to me that you may have confused "socialistic" with socialist or socialism. One is an adjective and the later two are nouns. So he never said "I am a socialist." Had MLK lived longer, he may very have developed into a socialist. But the overriding philosophy in MLK's life was Gandhism and Gandhi's Satyagraha which was a new word to describe an entirely new philosophy. Gandhi was never a socialist although his close and dear comrade Nehru was a socialist. Thus India (and Bangladesh) is a socialist state. Bangladesh is officially a People's Republic.

Satyagraha means taking control of a nation's own traditional economics and modernizing it to fit modern conditions. In many ways, it is similar to socialism. But like Nkruamisn which is socialism, it is most definitely not Marxism. Even Nehrus' socialism would probably not be considered Marxism.

This is important because it offers clarity on what we must do to develop the African Nation, Basically, we can rely on merely copying the white man. We must rely on the resources of Africa's traditional values and history to attain thought that is in harmony with the needs of Africa. That is what Consciencism is all about.

When we do this we can learn a great deal about how MLK's thinking fits in to all of this. And I think we can make a lot of progress that will benefit the African Nation. So, I do not approach any of this from an egotistical perspective. I think thinking Africans need to exchange honest ideas and opinions on this and hopefully move the discourse to a much higher level.

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