Special court rules against families ...

Special court rules against families who claim measles vaccine ...

There are 127 comments on the Chicago Tribune story from Feb 12, 2009, titled Special court rules against families who claim measles vaccine .... In it, Chicago Tribune reports that:

A special vaccine court ruled against parents with autistic children Thursday, saying that vaccines are not to blame for their children's neurological disorder.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Chicago Tribune.

Vasago

Dallas, TX

#21 Feb 12, 2009
Josie wrote:
If people keep listening to Jenny, we're going to have serious outbreaks in illnesses.
Why is it all-or-nothing with you people?

We need to do the research, find out what triggers the genetic disposition of autism, and find a way to stop it. We'll have a genetic test someday that will tell a parent if their infant may develop autism. Would you be against those parents deferring vaccinations?

Besides, if vaccines are so perfect, and so effective, why would any vaccinated child be a threat from an un-vaccinated child?
USSA

Scranton, PA

#22 Feb 12, 2009
That's right, continue to ignore the sound scientific evidence and supplant with your own biased anecdotal rubbish.

Measles vaccination and antibody response in autism spectrum disorders.

Baird G, Pickles A, Simonoff E, Charman T, Sullivan P, Chandler S, Loucas T, Meldrum D, Afzal M, Thomas B, Jin L, Brown D.
Newcomen Centre for Child Development, Guy's & St Thomas' NHS Foundation Trust, London, UK. [email protected]

CONCLUSION: No association between measles vaccination and ASD was shown.

No evidence for a new variant of measles-mumps-rubella-induced autism.

Fombonne E, Chakrabarti S.
Institute of Psychiatry, Department of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, King's College London, London, United Kingdom.

CONCLUSIONS: No evidence was found to support a distinct syndrome of MMR-induced autism or of "autistic enterocolitis." These results add to the recent accumulation of large-scale epidemiologic studies that all failed to support an association between MMR and autism at population level. When combined, the current findings do not argue for changes in current immunization programs and recommendations.

"How many children have autism who DID NOT get vaccinated."

How many children with autism have DNA? I think all of them; correct me if I am wrong, so the current evidence that suggests as many as 10 or more genes on different chromosomes may be involved in autism, to different degrees is strongly plausible. Additionally, because the disorder is so complex, and because no two people with autism are exactly alike, autism is the result of several causes. However, the lack of evidence with vaccination is very strong despite your bias against it.

"Based on the current evidence, it's reasonable to believe that one of the possible triggers is a shock to a baby's immune system that happens after a vaccination."

Provide a scientific study to support this assertion. Your bias is clear and you obviously have allowed your bias to dismiss any and all objective data suggesting that vaccines do not cause autism. You want people to think, then I suggest that you do the same.
Vasago wrote:
<quoted text>
If you're looking for a real link, I think you have it backward. How many children have autism who DID NOT get vaccinated.
My son has autism. Like 99% of children like him, his speech and other developmental regressions began after vaccinations, between the ages of 18 and 24 months of age.

Think.
Vasago

Dallas, TX

#23 Feb 12, 2009
Jennifer B wrote:
I am an attorney, and the mother of two children ~ both vaccinated ~ one of whom has autism.
I have actually slogged through these opinions, reading over 500 pages of decision. These are well-written, well-thought out judical opinions. The parents had every opportunity to present their cases, and they failed. The evidence was overwhelmingly against them.
For those who want to cry 'foul'over this, because of a general disregard for an objective inquiry into this highly emotional topic, sit down and digest the whole opinion. Then, and only then, come back to one of these boards and explain why the judges are either wrong on the facts or the law. If you can't, then you are on the wrong side of reason.
Hanging in my office is a quote from John Adams, c. 1770. This quote was taken from his closing argument when he successfully defended the British soldiers at the center of the Boston Massacre. Got it? One of our Founding Fathers defended British soldiers who shot and killed colonialsts. Not because he was 'bought off'. But because the EVIDENCE showed that the soldiers acted lawfully in self-defense against a mob attack. Here's what Mr. Adams said:
"Facts are stubborn things, and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictums of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
I for one am glad to see the triumph of sound judicial reasoning over pseudoscience and bad pulic policy. And that it happened on Honest Abe's 200th seems perfectly fitting.
You're an attorney? Then why are you applying a result to the court's decision that didn't happen?

They did NOT conclude that vaccines DO NOT cause autism. They concluded that no evidence was prevented that PROVED a link. There's a huge difference. Their conclusion may as well have read, "much more research is needed".

If a murderer stabs someone and hides the knife, a court might conclude that no evidence was presented that proves murder, freeing the killer. That is FAR from the same as saying the court concluded the the guy is not a murderer.
Jennifer B

Aurora, IL

#24 Feb 12, 2009
Vasago wrote:
<quoted text>
I think of her as just an advocate. She wants the research done and it's not.
I have a son with autism and I find her annoying. I've listened to her story and I don't think her son even HAS autism. She describes his major seizures as a baby and needing resucitation. Now he's basically fine....communication and developing normally.
That sounds like someone with a seizure disorder, not autism.
By the way, when she tells her story, she makes it sound like her son had autism and is now cured. There is no such thing. There is no cure, only ongoing treatment.
Autism is a spectrum disorder with some functioning very high and others very low. Through intense therapy, you can move someone a small way up the spectrum, but that's it.
I wholehearteldy agree with you, and wish you and your family the best.

But, for clarity, Ms. McCarthy is not just saying that the jury is out on this and we need more research. She will say ~point blank~ that she thinks vaccines caused her son's illness. She says ~point blank~ that her son is her science, that anecdotal evidence should be on par with rigorous scientific research.

She is actively misinforming people. That goes beyond simple advocacy.

Level 1

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#25 Feb 12, 2009
Not true. Almost every state in the union HAS waivers for vaccines and it's about time parents acknowledge this. There is a choice and if parents choose not to enforce their choice, you can not blame the country.
Vasago wrote:
<quoted text>

Every state in the union FORCES parents to have their children vaccinated. Think.
Vasago

Dallas, TX

#26 Feb 12, 2009
moquif wrote:
At least the judges sided with proven science instead of gut feelings and conspiracy theories. The connection between vaccines and autism has been disproven by people outside Big Pharma.
I'll look forward to your links to the research doing the "disproving". I won't hold my breath because there is no research done (either proving or disproving). We simply don't have the genetic knowledge yet.

By the way, what angers people like you so much over this topic? I really don't understand that.

For every other horrible disease, we go to all possible extremes in researching causes and cures (cancers, AIDS, etc). Why is it, with autism, everyone wants to just call the game "over" and move on? And this before the game has even really started.
USSA

Scranton, PA

#27 Feb 12, 2009
"Why is it all-or-nothing with you people?"

And it isn't with you? You stated previously that vaccination induced your child's autism yet there are droves of scientific evidence that demonstrate no causal relationship.

BTW, vaccines are very efficacious which is why all of my children are vaccinated so that they are protected from the loons that don't get their children vaccinated.
Vasago wrote:
<quoted text>
Why is it all-or-nothing with you people?
We need to do the research, find out what triggers the genetic disposition of autism, and find a way to stop it. We'll have a genetic test someday that will tell a parent if their infant may develop autism. Would you be against those parents deferring vaccinations?
Besides, if vaccines are so perfect, and so effective, why would any vaccinated child be a threat from an un-vaccinated child?

Level 1

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#28 Feb 12, 2009
Not all vaccines are 100 percent accurate for all people. Why do some people get the chickenpox multiple times?? It seems no body actually understands anti bodies very well. History tells us that childhood diseases can and often are deadly. Current times tells us when there is a drop of the MMR vaccine, a country with once low measle rates explode with cases of it, and children have died as a result, that tells us the effectiveness of vaccines, or at least that one vaccine which never contained Thimerosal.
As the rates of the MMR vaccine have dropped and over-all vaccines, the cases of autism have not dropped.

A genetic test for autism one day, as you said, is 'genetic', not vaccine related. Just tink about that "genetic" test for a second or two. Genetic.... genetic.....
Vasago wrote:
<quoted text>
Why is it all-or-nothing with you people?
We need to do the research, find out what triggers the genetic disposition of autism, and find a way to stop it. We'll have a genetic test someday that will tell a parent if their infant may develop autism. Would you be against those parents deferring vaccinations?
Besides, if vaccines are so perfect, and so effective, why would any vaccinated child be a threat from an un-vaccinated child?

Level 1

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#29 Feb 12, 2009
Ms. McCarthy depending on where she interviewed, no vaccine was given at or near the time her child started having seizures. Her story changes depending on who she's yapping to and where the market is for selling books. She out right stated her child was cured, then changed that to recovered yet a few months later decided she'd chelate that recovered child.
McCarthy is the largest ditz that ever joined the autism community is and there to promote her bank account. She is a mother that via the media, admits she took her own child's seizure medication (which is against the law) not to mention the damage it could cause brain which doesn't have seizures. She continues to spread lies via Generation Rescue that children to the age of 5 and 6 get 36 vaccines per the CDC schedule, which is totally incorrect.
McCarthy is sure to belly ache about this ruling, than accept it like an adult, and further spread more scare tactics to the public.
Vasago

Dallas, TX

#30 Feb 12, 2009
USSA wrote:
That's right, continue to ignore the sound scientific evidence and supplant with your own biased anecdotal rubbish.
Measles vaccination and antibody response in autism spectrum disorders.
Baird G, Pickles A, Simonoff E, Charman T, Sullivan P, Chandler S, Loucas T, Meldrum D, Afzal M, Thomas B, Jin L, Brown D.
Newcomen Centre for Child Development, Guy's & St Thomas' NHS Foundation Trust, London, UK. [email protected]
CONCLUSION: No association between measles vaccination and ASD was shown.
No evidence for a new variant of measles-mumps-rubella-induced autism.
Fombonne E, Chakrabarti S.
Institute of Psychiatry, Department of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, King's College London, London, United Kingdom.
CONCLUSIONS: No evidence was found to support a distinct syndrome of MMR-induced autism or of "autistic enterocolitis." These results add to the recent accumulation of large-scale epidemiologic studies that all failed to support an association between MMR and autism at population level. When combined, the current findings do not argue for changes in current immunization programs and recommendations.
"How many children have autism who DID NOT get vaccinated."
How many children with autism have DNA? I think all of them; correct me if I am wrong, so the current evidence that suggests as many as 10 or more genes on different chromosomes may be involved in autism, to different degrees is strongly plausible. Additionally, because the disorder is so complex, and because no two people with autism are exactly alike, autism is the result of several causes. However, the lack of evidence with vaccination is very strong despite your bias against it.
"Based on the current evidence, it's reasonable to believe that one of the possible triggers is a shock to a baby's immune system that happens after a vaccination."
Provide a scientific study to support this assertion. Your bias is clear and you obviously have allowed your bias to dismiss any and all objective data suggesting that vaccines do not cause autism. You want people to think, then I suggest that you do the same.
<quoted text>
Do you also want to stop cancer research? There's no really any reason to continue looking for cures and ways to avoid those diseases, right?

Why do you have such a problem with autism research? I sure hope it's not simply because you find us parents annoying, because that's sad.
Vasago

Dallas, TX

#31 Feb 12, 2009
friend wrote:
Not all vaccines are 100 percent accurate for all people. Why do some people get the chickenpox multiple times?? It seems no body actually understands anti bodies very well. History tells us that childhood diseases can and often are deadly. Current times tells us when there is a drop of the MMR vaccine, a country with once low measle rates explode with cases of it, and children have died as a result, that tells us the effectiveness of vaccines, or at least that one vaccine which never contained Thimerosal.
As the rates of the MMR vaccine have dropped and over-all vaccines, the cases of autism have not dropped.
A genetic test for autism one day, as you said, is 'genetic', not vaccine related. Just tink about that "genetic" test for a second or two. Genetic.... genetic.....
<quoted text>
Do you know what "genetic" means? Maybe a little personal research into the mapping of the human genome is in order.

Why are you so desperate to dis-believe that, if autism is genetic, it may have triggers?

Someday, we'll be able to tell a person if the have the genetic markers for all kinds of things, from diseases to hair loss. We may even be able to take steps to halt some of those markers from being triggered.

Heart disease and breast cancer will probably be the first ones discovered because the research dollars are so massive.

But, of course, your real problem is much simpler isn't it? From a socialist standpoint, those of us forgoing vaccines threaten the "greater good".

If we all thought like you, we'd make no scientific progress at all.
Vasago

Dallas, TX

#32 Feb 12, 2009
USSA wrote:
"Why is it all-or-nothing with you people?"
And it isn't with you? You stated previously that vaccination induced your child's autism yet there are droves of scientific evidence that demonstrate no causal relationship.
BTW, vaccines are very efficacious which is why all of my children are vaccinated so that they are protected from the loons that don't get their children vaccinated.
<quoted text>
Wow, I guess this proves everything I need to know about people like you. I didn't say ANYTHING that you wrote here, but you're just so desperate to believe otherwise, aren't you?

I was perfectly clear. I said I didn't know if vaccines caused my son's autism. I said that his neurologist is certain that autism has a trigger, and we haven't done the research to determine that trigger.

Why are you so desperate to turn parents like me into the bad-guy??

It's clear that you don't really care. You mention "droves" of research yet I know there is no such thing......you see, because I'm actually involved in this world every second of every day.

Like I've asked before, if vaccines are so perfect, why are you so angered by the "loons" who don't do it?

Do you know anything about the onset of the symptoms of autism? That nearly every autistic child develops normally until around age 2, when they begin regressing back to infancy? Why aren't you at all interested in what triggers this?

Yes, there are parents with multiple autistic children, some who've been vaccinated and some not. There are cases of identical twins...one autistic and one normal.

All this means is we need a lot more research.

Level 1

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#33 Feb 12, 2009
Genetic meaning the causes would be genetic, not vaccines, not anti biotics, not cell phones or TV. Those may be triggers, but the cause would be genetics. My nephew has a genetic disorder of which he can not have any protein at all. Should my brother sue the baby formula company which puts protein in it, which caused the blood clot to the brain? Sure, there could had ben prevention, had they known triggers for the blood clot, had they known the child had this genetic disorder which came from both parents, but the 'cause' to begin with was geentic, making suing impossible.

Of course socialist is brought into it. Forgoing makes no difference to me, I don't care one way or another since it is your choice and I have been saying 'choice for years as parents accuse the CDC and doctors. However most who contract measles were never vaccinated or never got the booster and choices of parents in the end, effect the child.
Vasago wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you know what "genetic" means? Maybe a little personal research into the mapping of the human genome is in order.
Why are you so desperate to dis-believe that, if autism is genetic, it may have triggers?
Someday, we'll be able to tell a person if the have the genetic markers for all kinds of things, from diseases to hair loss. We may even be able to take steps to halt some of those markers from being triggered.
Heart disease and breast cancer will probably be the first ones discovered because the research dollars are so massive.
But, of course, your real problem is much simpler isn't it? From a socialist standpoint, those of us forgoing vaccines threaten the "greater good".
If we all thought like you, we'd make no scientific progress at all.

Level 1

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#34 Feb 12, 2009
Cancer is deadly to most, poor comparison. They should research cancer and heart disease and children's cancer much more vigorously since there is mortality where as autism does not cause death.
Vasago wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you also want to stop cancer research? There's no really any reason to continue looking for cures and ways to avoid those diseases, right?
Why do you have such a problem with autism research? I sure hope it's not simply because you find us parents annoying, because that's sad.
Vasago

Dallas, TX

#35 Feb 12, 2009
friend wrote:
Cancer is deadly to most, poor comparison. They should research cancer and heart disease and children's cancer much more vigorously since there is mortality where as autism does not cause death.
<quoted text>
Wow. So you draw the line for research at "causes death"?

You clearly don't have a child with autism, much less understand anything about the disorder.

Level 1

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#36 Feb 12, 2009
I have been posting to these topics for a long time. Of course you assume I'd not have a child with autism and if I did, of course that child would have to be vaccine injured, right?? There just couldn't be any children with autism that isn't vaccine injured?? That's where you are wrong.

It's people like you that wont allow children like mine to ever find the causes for his autism as long as people continue to over look those whose autism is not vaccine related.

Regardless of this court ruling, our children are still going to have autism, and no amount of settlement would make that better. No amount of blame would make it better unless there was real scientific proof for the knowledge of prevention, however those who have autism, there wont be a cure, more so if the thught that vaccines and other things alter DNA.

If you consider cancer less important than autism, you have a problem. My child's autism will not kill him, cancer could.
Vasago wrote:
<quoted text>
Wow. So you draw the line for research at "causes death"?
You clearly don't have a child with autism, much less understand anything about the disorder.
Michele

East Hampton, NY

#37 Feb 12, 2009
What BS!!! A FDA and CDC ploy to cover their butts! They know they are damaging our children and they do not care, because it is all about the money. Check it out for yourself, Japan doesn't vaccinate until after two and it's voluntary. Why do you think there children are so smart. The lethal factor of the DTaP is 25, that is for a child from 6 weeks to 6 yrs. Adult lethal factor is 2. That is just the Diphtheria component. Check the PDR for the rest. Diphtheria toxin causes myelin deterioration, and Tetanus toxin causes seismic responses in the brain, leaving test animals autistic. All natural instincts lost. No vaccines until after 2 years old. Play it safe for the sake of the child.
USSA

Scranton, PA

#38 Feb 12, 2009
What? That is a retarded rebuttal as I made no such claim regarding autism research. The anti-vaccine lobby such as yourself has and will always reject objective research because your kind is all about blame and money.
Vasago wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you also want to stop cancer research? There's no really any reason to continue looking for cures and ways to avoid those diseases, right?
Why do you have such a problem with autism research? I sure hope it's not simply because you find us parents annoying, because that's sad.
megg

United States

#39 Feb 12, 2009
Podd Talin wrote:
Autism is caused by improper pre-natal care and the mother's unhealthy lifestyle habits during pregnancy, not pharmaceutical companies.
You are wrong. I am not saying Pharmaceutical companies cause it, but it's definitely not due to improper pre-natal care. Where are you getting that info? Because it's false....
MRB

Chicago, IL

#40 Feb 12, 2009
Michele wrote:
What BS!!! A FDA and CDC ploy to cover their butts! They know they are damaging our children and they do not care, because it is all about the money. Check it out for yourself, Japan doesn't vaccinate until after two and it's voluntary. Why do you think there children are so smart. The lethal factor of the DTaP is 25, that is for a child from 6 weeks to 6 yrs. Adult lethal factor is 2. That is just the Diphtheria component. Check the PDR for the rest. Diphtheria toxin causes myelin deterioration, and Tetanus toxin causes seismic responses in the brain, leaving test animals autistic. All natural instincts lost. No vaccines until after 2 years old. Play it safe for the sake of the child.
Another ignorant fool. What a shame. No amount of research, court rulings, hard data...nothing will convince people like yourself.

If autism wasn't so terrible, your position would be laughable.

Instead, it's just sad.

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