'The flip' of school times really is a moneysaver, audit finds

Full story: Orlando Sentinel

It created angry parents, sleepy preteens and a mad dash by high-school students to get from sports to jobs in the afternoons.
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141 - 160 of 164 Comments Last updated Aug 26, 2013

Since: Oct 08

Melbourne, FL

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#146
Apr 29, 2009
 
churchlady wrote:
Are you Ronald Blocker?<quoted text>
So you don't have an answer.

Since: Oct 08

Melbourne, FL

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#147
Apr 29, 2009
 
Think a moment wrote:
<quoted text>
Dollars compared to dollars...ok! Look the only thing in that report that matches is dollars. The data is skewed for the current climate we are in. Now the board members who voted for the 'flop' have a tool to take to their constituents to justify revoting in favor of the 'flip'.
The flip/flop was never the answer in the beginning. Reworking the bus routes, and lobbying the state to get the distance extended when a bus is needed, should have been the boards focus. Want to see a study show a savings? See how much money could be saved by extending the middle and high school distances by 1/2 mile and 1 mile respectively.
So we're in aggreement that when you compare dollars to dollars the flip saves money.
Reworking the bus routes would cost more.
Do you have any data showing that extending the distance will save money?
Wow

Orlando, FL

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#148
Apr 30, 2009
 
If you want to hear incompetence at its best just listen to some minutes of the Transportation Task force on the OCPS website. The last meeting on 4/27 was spent arguing over what a quorum was. Vicki Bell didn't even know if she was counted even though she is the committee Chairperson!! This bunch (maybe not all...but most) doesn't need to be suggesting anything in regards to running transportation. I wouldn't trust them to decide how to buy an ice cream cone!! You would think you were listening to a comedy routine!! SAD...SAD...SAD!!
churchlady

Orlando, FL

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#149
May 3, 2009
 
At the end of the school year I suggest you show up at your local schools, and see what all is thrown away, I have, and it is a shame. I have seen books, desks, chairs all pitched, not sold, or used by another school. Where is the audit on all of this waste. Students that can't behave in their regular school, and are sent to Silver Star Learning Center are bussed - no matter where they live, and they may be the only kid on the entire bus, the parents or city bus (at their expense) should get them to school - not at cost too everyone else. I can think of other abuse of money, but I hope this gives you an idea, if it doesn't, you really are crazy.
["Liberals Are Crazy"]<quoted text>
Just what are they overspending on?
Not busing students would cost MORE.
Not offering meals to students would cost MORE.

Since: Oct 08

Minneapolis, MN

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#150
May 4, 2009
 
churchlady wrote:
At the end of the school year I suggest you show up at your local schools, and see what all is thrown away, I have, and it is a shame. I have seen books, desks, chairs all pitched, not sold, or used by another school. Where is the audit on all of this waste. Students that can't behave in their regular school, and are sent to Silver Star Learning Center are bussed - no matter where they live, and they may be the only kid on the entire bus, the parents or city bus (at their expense) should get them to school - not at cost too everyone else. I can think of other abuse of money, but I hope this gives you an idea, if it doesn't, you really are crazy.
["Liberals Are Crazy"]<quoted text>
Just what are they overspending on?
Not busing students would cost MORE.
Not offering meals to students would cost MORE.
Orange County adopts textbooks every seven years. What else would they do with a 7 year old book? Why would another district want an out of date book?

State law requires that students who live more than 2 miles away from the school get a bus. If the district violated this law they would be fined, sued, or both. Which would wind up costing more money than paying for the bus.

So I ask again. Where exactly are they wasting money?
GreGG

Pierson, FL

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#151
May 4, 2009
 
Liberals Are Crazy wrote:
<quoted text>
Orange County adopts textbooks every seven years. What else would they do with a 7 year old book? Why would another district want an out of date book?
State law requires that students who live more than 2 miles away from the school get a bus. If the district violated this law they would be fined, sued, or both. Which would wind up costing more money than paying for the bus.
So I ask again. Where exactly are they wasting money?
Do you honestly believe that the information within that textbook is obsolete after 7 years?
Just because a book is being replaced as a course text does not mean it can't be salvaged and used by someone home schooling or even as a reference volume by anyone interested in education of our youth.

“Breaking news!!!”

Since: Apr 08

Where I live today.

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#152
May 4, 2009
 
Liberals Are Crazy wrote:
<quoted text>
So we're in aggreement that when you compare dollars to dollars the flip saves money.
Reworking the bus routes would cost more.
Do you have any data showing that extending the distance will save money?
Agree dollar to dollars yes, but flip dollar is not the same as flop dollars.
Reworking the bus routes actually might save money with the extention of distance. The data I have is speculative, but that is the way government works so here goes...
If you could eliminate, on average,3 bus routes per school by extending the transportation distance, multiply that by the number or schools and I am sure you can see where dollars would be saved. Also, why not lobby the next legislature to allow us to charge a fee to ride the bus? The state does not fully fund the mandate that is in place for transportation.[Here readers can go back and search my prior post on the pay to ride issue] The notion that not every family could afford to pay $1 each way to ride the bus is a lazy cop out. Other school systems charge [also in my prior posts]
So dollars to dollars don't always leave you with dollars.
Captain Jim

United States

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#153
May 4, 2009
 
Think a moment wrote:
<quoted text>
Agree dollar to dollars yes, but flip dollar is not the same as flop dollars.
Reworking the bus routes actually might save money with the extention of distance. The data I have is speculative, but that is the way government works so here goes...
If you could eliminate, on average,3 bus routes per school by extending the transportation distance, multiply that by the number or schools and I am sure you can see where dollars would be saved. Also, why not lobby the next legislature to allow us to charge a fee to ride the bus? The state does not fully fund the mandate that is in place for transportation.[Here readers can go back and search my prior post on the pay to ride issue] The notion that not every family could afford to pay $1 each way to ride the bus is a lazy cop out. Other school systems charge [also in my prior posts]
So dollars to dollars don't always leave you with dollars.
Sounds like you are adding a great deal of time to the schedule. That's what causes the problem in the first place. We need X number of buses in order to pick up and deliver kids in an amount of time that will allow us to circle back and pick up and deliver the next group of kids. I don't see how your theory would work, but hey... just that thought alone was more then I've seen from our OCPS board! Keep trying!

“Breaking news!!!”

Since: Apr 08

Where I live today.

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#154
May 6, 2009
 
Captain Jim wrote:
<quoted text>
Sounds like you are adding a great deal of time to the schedule. That's what causes the problem in the first place. We need X number of buses in order to pick up and deliver kids in an amount of time that will allow us to circle back and pick up and deliver the next group of kids. I don't see how your theory would work, but hey... just that thought alone was more then I've seen from our OCPS board! Keep trying!
I think you are starting to see it. We do need X amount of busses. By stretching the walking distances we could eliminate some routes. This is regarless of flip or flop.

We could lobby for an exemption from the states transportation rule of 2 miles. It could be done and the precident is already set. Orange is the only county in the state that the legislature decided to push the elected school board chair on, so a one county exemption for something should not be that difficult for the lawyers to haggle about.

I do understand this will not take place next year (or maybe the year after), but I do think we need to at least look at alternatives to what we are doing now. It just appears that OCPS is not thinking very broadly on this topic (or many others).
True Justice

United States

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#155
May 6, 2009
 
GreGG wrote:
<quoted text>Do you honestly believe that the information within that textbook is obsolete after 7 years?
Just because a book is being replaced as a course text does not mean it can't be salvaged and used by someone home schooling or even as a reference volume by anyone interested in education of our youth.
GreGG you are correct. I am a college professor, and I keep all old textbooks, and ofttentimes give them to those who cannot afford them, or to fellow teachers in need of the information or text support.

Since: Oct 08

Melbourne, FL

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#156
May 7, 2009
 
GreGG wrote:
<quoted text>Do you honestly believe that the information within that textbook is obsolete after 7 years?
Just because a book is being replaced as a course text does not mean it can't be salvaged and used by someone home schooling or even as a reference volume by anyone interested in education of our youth.
I don't just believe it, I know it. Science & computer books are out of date by the time they publish.

If a book is no longer on the adoption list it can not be used for home schooling. How many books do you think they would sell?

Since: Oct 08

Melbourne, FL

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#157
May 7, 2009
 
Think a moment wrote:
<quoted text>
Agree dollar to dollars yes, but flip dollar is not the same as flop dollars.
Reworking the bus routes actually might save money with the extention of distance. The data I have is speculative, but that is the way government works so here goes...
If you could eliminate, on average,3 bus routes per school by extending the transportation distance, multiply that by the number or schools and I am sure you can see where dollars would be saved. Also, why not lobby the next legislature to allow us to charge a fee to ride the bus? The state does not fully fund the mandate that is in place for transportation.[Here readers can go back and search my prior post on the pay to ride issue] The notion that not every family could afford to pay $1 each way to ride the bus is a lazy cop out. Other school systems charge [also in my prior posts]
So dollars to dollars don't always leave you with dollars.
That's not correct. No school district charges for busing.

Again, you'd have to change state & maybe even federal law on this. I don't see any legislators who would be willing to support this now or in the future. This is not something OCPS has any control over.
Captain Jim

United States

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#158
May 7, 2009
 
Think a moment wrote:
<quoted text>
I think you are starting to see it. We do need X amount of busses. By stretching the walking distances we could eliminate some routes. This is regarless of flip or flop.
We could lobby for an exemption from the states transportation rule of 2 miles. It could be done and the precident is already set. Orange is the only county in the state that the legislature decided to push the elected school board chair on, so a one county exemption for something should not be that difficult for the lawyers to haggle about.
I do understand this will not take place next year (or maybe the year after), but I do think we need to at least look at alternatives to what we are doing now. It just appears that OCPS is not thinking very broadly on this topic (or many others).
It's a nice dream, and I agree it could work, but it just isn't going to happen. We have parents crying because their kids have to get up early, or stay an hour later. They claim the world is going to end as a result. Can you even imagine if their kids, dare I say it, had to actually WALK TO SCHOOL! I can hear it now; "My kids are going to get killed because they have to cross a street." or "All the children will be hit by lightning and attacked by dogs and child molesters on their way to and from school every single day. Is that what you want? Do you want my kids to be attacked and zapped??? DO YOU???"

We laugh, but we also know it's true.

“Breaking news!!!”

Since: Apr 08

Where I live today.

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#159
May 8, 2009
 
Liberals Are Crazy wrote:
<quoted text>
That's not correct. No school district charges for busing.
Again, you'd have to change state & maybe even federal law on this. I don't see any legislators who would be willing to support this now or in the future. This is not something OCPS has any control over.
In the state of Florida no public district charges for busing. As I said though, we need to lobby to change the statutes to allow districts to raise funds to make up the difference the state does not fund. Also known as a partialy funded mandate. Remember most of legislators have no clue what a school bus ride is like anyway. Let alone send their kids to public school. Oh gosh for one minute imagine legislators taking a week in September to ride the bus to PUBLIC school, go to class all day, then ride the bus home. Talk about will never happen, I challenge a member or the Orange county legislative delegation to prove me wrong!

Now if you paid attention to my earlier post you would see that I have documented a school district that does charge for transportation of high school students. So yes...somebody does charge for transportation. Think a moment, with 19 high school, averaging 70 bus routes (round trip), and 40 students per route, how much could you raise charging $1 per trip.[19x70x40x$1] Take that total and plug it into what transportation is costing us, IN TOTAL.

People may say this could never happen. Not everyone could afford it. Well we could then treat the pay to ride system like the lunch program. Implement a free/reduced ride plan. Offer a discount 25% prepaid discount to those who pay for the whole year. Either way income will come in from high school bus routes that was not there before.

Come on people, the flip in school times was done to save money. Why wasn't this done 3, 5, or 7 ears agao? Could it be because we were enjoying a surplus (don't laugh to hard) and didn't see the wisdom of making a flip? We need to find new sources of funding. Floridians, when are we going to start paying for what we want. We don't want to cut our taxes, but at the same time want the same services!

“Breaking news!!!”

Since: Apr 08

Where I live today.

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#160
May 8, 2009
 
Captain Jim wrote:
<quoted text>
It's a nice dream, and I agree it could work, but it just isn't going to happen. We have parents crying because their kids have to get up early, or stay an hour later. They claim the world is going to end as a result. Can you even imagine if their kids, dare I say it, had to actually WALK TO SCHOOL! I can hear it now; "My kids are going to get killed because they have to cross a street." or "All the children will be hit by lightning and attacked by dogs and child molesters on their way to and from school every single day. Is that what you want? Do you want my kids to be attacked and zapped??? DO YOU???"
We laugh, but we also know it's true.
Oh my gosh, I couldn't imagine having a child cross the street. OH NO!

The parents need to wake up! A good walk would do quite a few of our students some good.

Too many of our children have no clue what it is like to handle challenges on the road to their destination. That is not just a walk to school, but also the journey through life.

Since: Oct 08

Orlando, FL

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#161
May 8, 2009
 
Think a moment wrote:
<quoted text>
In the state of Florida no public district charges for busing. As I said though, we need to lobby to change the statutes to allow districts to raise funds to make up the difference the state does not fund. Also known as a partialy funded mandate. Remember most of legislators have no clue what a school bus ride is like anyway. Let alone send their kids to public school. Oh gosh for one minute imagine legislators taking a week in September to ride the bus to PUBLIC school, go to class all day, then ride the bus home. Talk about will never happen, I challenge a member or the Orange county legislative delegation to prove me wrong!
Now if you paid attention to my earlier post you would see that I have documented a school district that does charge for transportation of high school students. So yes...somebody does charge for transportation. Think a moment, with 19 high school, averaging 70 bus routes (round trip), and 40 students per route, how much could you raise charging $1 per trip.[19x70x40x$1] Take that total and plug it into what transportation is costing us, IN TOTAL.
People may say this could never happen. Not everyone could afford it. Well we could then treat the pay to ride system like the lunch program. Implement a free/reduced ride plan. Offer a discount 25% prepaid discount to those who pay for the whole year. Either way income will come in from high school bus routes that was not there before.
Come on people, the flip in school times was done to save money. Why wasn't this done 3, 5, or 7 ears agao? Could it be because we were enjoying a surplus (don't laugh to hard) and didn't see the wisdom of making a flip? We need to find new sources of funding. Floridians, when are we going to start paying for what we want. We don't want to cut our taxes, but at the same time want the same services!
What's the district, or what post # did you mention it?
Captain Jim

United States

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#162
May 8, 2009
 
Think a moment wrote:
<quoted text>
The parents need to wake up!
Now we expect the parents to wake up? That's where the assumption goes so far off track. If the parents that are screaming and yelling, and it's the small minority, were to be capable of "waking up" and seeing the big picture then we wouldn't have this problem in the first place. They could clearly see that the swap saved millions of dollars we don't have to spend. Itís this entitlement mentality that is killing us.

“Breaking news!!!”

Since: Apr 08

Where I live today.

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#163
May 11, 2009
 
Liberals Are Crazy wrote:
<quoted text>
What's the district, or what post # did you mention it?
Take a look at the program in place for the Dallas Public Schools pay to ride program. Dallas is #14 on the list of the largest schools in the nation, we are #11.

Since: Oct 08

Melbourne, FL

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#164
May 11, 2009
 
Think a moment wrote:
<quoted text>
Take a look at the program in place for the Dallas Public Schools pay to ride program. Dallas is #14 on the list of the largest schools in the nation, we are #11.
I think you misunderstand what this program is. This program allows students who live within 2 miles to pay for a bus. Students who live beyond two miles still get a tax payer paid bus.

"The Pay to Ride service enables students who live within two miles of their school to ride the bus for a fee. "

http://www.coppellisd.com/1517208216045593/si...
Vicky Bell

Orlando, FL

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#165
Jun 14, 2013
 
I found this still on the internet and thought if people still looked at this then the truth ought to be posted. The flip in start times didn't save any money. The heads of transportation did not know how to run routing software for transportation. Even though they had paid 20 years to have it and pretend to use it. They did it all by hand. So the company that ran the study, who also were not strong on routing software, had nothing to base their study of the routing on. What they mostly found was backing up what the transportation task force found, a lot of inefficientcy of that department. Once the software was used, 10 million was saved with that. Since they had over400 extra busses, 30 million was saved the next few years just not buying buses and getting rid of the excess buses. As for school grades, 5 high schools and 7 middle schools dropped a full letter grade during the flip in starting times for hs and ms. This is the truth. Too many people were fooled by the lies of the now ex transportation heads.

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