Once slow-moving threat, global warming speeds up, leaving litt...

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Since: Mar 09

Anonymous Proxy

#37013 Jul 14, 2013
Retired Farmer wrote:
<quoted text>
As former Speaker of the U.S. House Tip O'Neill famously said, "All politics is local." That is especially true with the politics of coal and global warming. If you’ve noticed, most of the denier and “War on coal” rhetoric has come from coal mining country, particularly Appalachia. Coal mining jobs in Appalachia are going away already because of economics. Wyoming coal, which accounts for almost 40 percent of American coal, is much cheaper: under $20 per ton or so compared to over $54 for Appalachian coal. The electric power industry has not had much to say about it. The power companies are well aware that most of their coal-fired power plants are now 50 years old or older. They will soon be at the end of their operating life spans. The power companies know that they will soon have to shut those old worn out plants down and build new generating capacity to replace them. Naturally, they want to build the new capacity that will be cheapest to build, and be the least costly to operate. That means that they will look to natural gas, which is cheaper than coal, along with wind, solar, etc. Until those old plants do shut down, there will be plenty of cheaper Wyoming coal to fuel them.
As to the possibility that the Republican party will move back to the middle, I would like to see that happen but I do not think that it will, not for 25 or 30 years. That is because the generation that is now just beginning its stint in power -- the 35-50 age group -- will have to age out before the party’s ideology can change. First impressions and political beliefs are quick to form, but slow to change. A more likely scenario is that the Tea Party / Christian Right coalition will keep control of the Senate seats in the states of the Old South, Kentucky and West Virginia, the Plains states, and Arizona. They will have most of the House seats from those states as well. They will also control the non-urban House seats in such states as Illinois, Ohio, Indiana, and even California. They won’t be able to pass any of their right wing legislative agenda, but they will have enough votes to deadlock the legislative process. The only way that can be prevented is if the urban Republicans move to the center and make common cause with moderate “Blue Dog” Democrats of if the Democrats win and keep majorities in both houses of Congress and elect the president. Either is possible but both are unlikely. Far more likely is a prolonged deadlock like the one that we are seeing now.
Nice discussion but history has the ability to change in ways that we cannot fathom. If the deadlock in Congress continues and the affluent class keeps bleeding the masses because of their inaction, there will be a time when the masses rebel and demand change. The direction the nation is taking cannot endure. The charade by the conservative press is beginning to tatter and let some light shine through. I guess that I am a little more optimistic about changes than you. Then perhaps I am just being a little Pollyannish...
LessHypeMoreFact

Toronto, Canada

#37014 Jul 14, 2013
Retired Farmer wrote:
<quoted text>
As former Speaker of the U.S. House Tip O'Neill famously said, "All politics is local."
But it 'adds up' nationally.
Retired Farmer wrote:
<quoted text>
If you’ve noticed, most of the denier and “War on coal” rhetoric has come from coal mining country, particularly Appalachia. Coal mining jobs in Appalachia are going away already because of economics. Wyoming coal, which accounts for almost 40 percent of American coal, is much cheaper: under $20 per ton or so compared to over $54 for Appalachian coal.
One reason is the cost of transport (subsidized) but the main criteria is the heating value (Wyoming coal has, on average, 8600 Btu's of energy per pound. Eastern coal has heat rates of well over 12,000 Btu's per pound.) But the CRITICAL deciding factor is the sulfur content (Sub-bituminous Wyoming coal is only 0.35 percent sulfur by weight, while Kentucky coal is 1.59 percent sulfur). With EPA regulation, this becomes critical and one reason that the Appalachians are losing and being quite vocal about anti-environment, anti-government feelings. But it isn't even that simple. The toxic dust and pollution are making it hard for those who don't profit from coal, and those costs are starting to add up, and the economics doesn't. tinyurl.com/lbyzxys
Retired Farmer wrote:
<quoted text>
Far more likely is a prolonged deadlock like the one that we are seeing now.
That is a given and mostly due to the bicamera party setup which invites 'us vs them' deadlocks. You cannot have Democratic institutions with too many (ends up with fragile coalitions that toady to the extremist parties) or too few (end up with us vs them deadlocks) parties. I think that Canada has a better idea with parties that have 5% of the popular vote and can field candidates in every riding. That allows for flexibility in parties while limiting the number.
Retired Farmer

Princeton, KY

#37015 Jul 14, 2013
Patriot AKA Bozo wrote:
<quoted text>
Nice discussion but history has the ability to change in ways that we cannot fathom. If the deadlock in Congress continues and the affluent class keeps bleeding the masses because of their inaction, there will be a time when the masses rebel and demand change. The direction the nation is taking cannot endure. The charade by the conservative press is beginning to tatter and let some light shine through. I guess that I am a little more optimistic about changes than you. Then perhaps I am just being a little Pollyannish...
Contrary to popularly believed communist propaganda, there has never been a spontaneous "revolution of the masses." Revolutions are made by disaffected intellectuals, not by the poor masses. That is why the libertarians are so committed to cutting back on education.

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#37016 Jul 14, 2013
Retired Farmer wrote:
<quoted text>
Contrary to popularly believed communist propaganda, there has never been a spontaneous "revolution of the masses." Revolutions are made by disaffected intellectuals, not by the poor masses. That is why the libertarians are so committed to cutting back on education.
I agree, perhaps with the exception of the Arab Spring. Most conflicts are born out of tribal culture, the lack of understanding or sheer intolerance of another way of thinking. It’s the same with politics, as we see in the middle east this tribalism is wrapped up in religion to give it a more high moral ground. But it still comes down to the same thing, I have a friend who is middle eastern and he has always told me for at least 10 yrs or more democracy just can’t work in cultures like that. Unless there is a quantum shift and religion takes a huge backward step they are better off under dictatorship or monarch type rule. Keeping tribal and religious differences at bay. Education in most cases takes away radicalism providing its not filtered. Whereas another country like Indonesia which has a 200 million plus population of the Muslim faith are nowhere near as radical as the middle east. They have pockets of terror organisations that mirror their middle eastern bros but on the whole, the place is very westernised. Women dress as they please some wear veils some don’t and neither gets persecuted for it. Can you imagine China with the same freedom as the US, how difficult it would be for the government to keep a population of that size under control. So we sometimes stick our noses into places where its best left for them to evolve or not. Globalisation has opened up some of those under developed countries to prosperity but not full blown democracy. In my view the Bible belt culture in the US is no different than any of the above. It’s about seemingly protecting a set of values that are closely linked to religion and lifestyle. The global warming issue got wrapped up in that (attacking lifestyle) when it should have been a national crisis. No different than 9/11 and how everyone’s life changed after that, not only in the US but around the world. Climate crisis should have been addressed the same way but was never sold like that. We are quick to put scanners at airports and have a whole intelligence industry born out of 9/11 costing billion$ worldwide for the sake of catching some would be bomber at a super bowl vs. protecting the whole damn planet and we argue about it like its a religious difference. So it makes you wonder have we really evolved with the smarts to survive.
SpaceBlues

Houston, TX

#37017 Jul 14, 2013
ritedownthemiddle wrote:
<quoted text>maybe you should let your boyfriend fight his own battles, sweetie, you have a hard enough time defending your own ground.
hahahaha

bhaaaahhhhhaaaa

Look whom you called sweetie.. I'm NOT. Get your own kisses somewhere else. Anywhere but here.

Global warming is hard on you, whiner.

Since: Mar 09

Anonymous Proxy

#37018 Jul 14, 2013
Retired Farmer wrote:
<quoted text>
Contrary to popularly believed communist propaganda, there has never been a spontaneous "revolution of the masses." Revolutions are made by disaffected intellectuals, not by the poor masses. That is why the libertarians are so committed to cutting back on education.
Yes, but it takes the masses to act upon the ideologies of the intellectuals. Not only do the conservatives cut back on education but they must discredit those who are educated but do not hold their ideologies. That is one of the tools used in the undercutting of climate science. If you cannot defeat the message, discredit the messenger. This can only be done if the citizenry is largely ignorant of the process.
LessHypeMoreFact

Toronto, Canada

#37019 Jul 14, 2013
Retired Farmer wrote:
<quoted text>
Contrary to popularly believed communist propaganda, there has never been a spontaneous "revolution of the masses." Revolutions are made by disaffected intellectuals, not by the poor masses. That is why the libertarians are so committed to cutting back on education.
Actually, the masses are READY to revolt and some person angling for power will then take charge and manipulate it. That is a good description of the 'tea party' movement, for example.

Since: Mar 09

Anonymous Proxy

#37020 Jul 14, 2013
OzRitz wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree, perhaps with the exception of the Arab Spring. Most conflicts are born out of tribal culture, the lack of understanding or sheer intolerance of another way of thinking. It’s the same with politics, as we see in the middle east this tribalism is wrapped up in religion to give it a more high moral ground. But it still comes down to the same thing, I have a friend who is middle eastern and he has always told me for at least 10 yrs or more democracy just can’t work in cultures like that. Unless there is a quantum shift and religion takes a huge backward step they are better off under dictatorship or monarch type rule. Keeping tribal and religious differences at bay. Education in most cases takes away radicalism providing its not filtered. Whereas another country like Indonesia which has a 200 million plus population of the Muslim faith are nowhere near as radical as the middle east. They have pockets of terror organisations that mirror their middle eastern bros but on the whole, the place is very westernised. Women dress as they please some wear veils some don’t and neither gets persecuted for it. Can you imagine China with the same freedom as the US, how difficult it would be for the government to keep a population of that size under control. So we sometimes stick our noses into places where its best left for them to evolve or not. Globalisation has opened up some of those under developed countries to prosperity but not full blown democracy. In my view the Bible belt culture in the US is no different than any of the above. It’s about seemingly protecting a set of values that are closely linked to religion and lifestyle. The global warming issue got wrapped up in that (attacking lifestyle) when it should have been a national crisis. No different than 9/11 and how everyone’s life changed after that, not only in the US but around the world. Climate crisis should have been addressed the same way but was never sold like that. We are quick to put scanners at airports and have a whole intelligence industry born out of 9/11 costing billion$ worldwide for the sake of catching some would be bomber at a super bowl vs. protecting the whole damn planet and we argue about it like its a religious difference. So it makes you wonder have we really evolved with the smarts to survive.
I think a lot of it is a product of the news media neglecting their duties. They are more interested in getting a scoop than in checking before they put it out as fact. The media has become foremost a money making business instead of doing what they should. A doctor must hold the welfare of his patient before everything, the teacher, the welfare of his/her students, the lawyer, his client, the elected official, his constituents, etc. While money is important in each of these professions, they must be dedicated to their responsibilities.

I believe that the media is so interested in their bottom line that they will simply create controversy to attract audience whether they believe in it or not. A case is the reporting of climate science where a very large majority of scientists find that man is implicit in global warming but the media gives equal time to the very small but vocal minority who are skeptical. The duty of the media is to bring issues to the attention of the masses so they can vote or hold their representatives to task. This is not done by the media groping for sensationalism. The most important mass media is television and I am afraid that they have gone the route of the sensationalist tabloids.

While the internet is slowly replacing TV and news papers, one must ask where do the folks get the bulk of their information. From the lazy sensationalist news reporters. Where else?
gcaveman1

Laurel, MS

#37021 Jul 14, 2013
ritedownthemiddle wrote:
<quoted text>socialist party pockets??? LOL....don't try to put your shoes on my feet, son! i don't need your fungi.
why is everyone in your part of the country so fat....and uneducated....and dependent on welfare?
First question: yes, the pockets of American National Socialaists in Wisconsin and Michigan, aka, the American Nazis.
Second question: not everyone, you over-generalizing idiot, but the ones who are, are mainly because of malnutrition and Republicunt legislators.
Retired Farmer

Princeton, KY

#37022 Jul 14, 2013
gcaveman1 wrote:
<quoted text>
First question: yes, the pockets of American National Socialaists in Wisconsin and Michigan, aka, the American Nazis.
Second question: not everyone, you over-generalizing idiot, but the ones who are, are mainly because of malnutrition and Republicunt legislators.
Hey, Caveman,

If you can break off the fight with ritedownthecrapper long enough, take a look at this article about the Farm Bill that the House passed on Thursday and let me know what you think.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/201...

For everybody else, this has relevance to the climate change debate too. They basically ripped out all incentives for farmers to install alternative energy technology on their land, buildings, etc.
gcaveman1

Laurel, MS

#37023 Jul 14, 2013
Retired Farmer wrote:
An interesting article about the "Southernization of America" phenomenon:
http://o-l-i.blogspot.com/2012/01/southerniza...
That's about right!

And Mississippi has moved to Minnesota.
gcaveman1

Laurel, MS

#37024 Jul 14, 2013
Patriot AKA Bozo wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, but it takes the masses to act upon the ideologies of the intellectuals. Not only do the conservatives cut back on education but they must discredit those who are educated but do not hold their ideologies. That is one of the tools used in the undercutting of climate science. If you cannot defeat the message, discredit the messenger. This can only be done if the citizenry is largely ignorant of the process.
In Laos, Cambodia, China, Congo, they shot the intellectuals first.

then the doctors, artists, and anyone with a college degree.
gcaveman1

Laurel, MS

#37025 Jul 14, 2013
Retired Farmer wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey, Caveman,
If you can break off the fight with ritedownthecrapper long enough, take a look at this article about the Farm Bill that the House passed on Thursday and let me know what you think.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/201...
For everybody else, this has relevance to the climate change debate too. They basically ripped out all incentives for farmers to install alternative energy technology on their land, buildings, etc.
Was I fighting with ratdownthemuddle? I don't usually engage in battles of wits with anyone who is only half-armed....

I'll get back to ya...
kristy

Oviedo, FL

#37026 Jul 14, 2013
Retired Farmer wrote:
<quoted text>
As to the possibility that the Republican party will move back to the middle, I would like to see that happen but I do not think that it will, not for 25 or 30 years. That is because the generation that is now just beginning its stint in power -- the 35-50 age group -- will have to age out before the party’s ideology can change. First impressions and political beliefs are quick to form, but slow to change. A more likely scenario is that the Tea Party / Christian Right coalition will keep control of the Senate seats in the states of the Old South, Kentucky and West Virginia, the Plains states, and Arizona. They will have most of the House seats from those states as well. They will also control the non-urban House seats in such states as Illinois, Ohio, Indiana, and even California. They won’t be able to pass any of their right wing legislative agenda, but they will have enough votes to deadlock the legislative process. The only way that can be prevented is if the urban Republicans move to the center and make common cause with moderate “Blue Dog” Democrats of if the Democrats win and keep majorities in both houses of Congress and elect the president. Either is possible but both are unlikely. Far more likely is a prolonged deadlock like the one that we are seeing now.
What is the “middle?” The progressives have moved the bar so far to the left, that the old middle is now considered the “extreme right.” There are no more “blue dog” democrats. The progressives just keep pushing their agendas (under the radar) to extremes and telling us they are in the moderate position. For example, they are pushing their transgender positions. Massachusetts and California have now passed a law that any child who feels that they have sexual identity issues can use bathrooms, locker rooms, and changing areas for the gender with which they identify, but those transgenders who are not comfortable doing so should be provided with alternatives, such as a unisex or nurses station’s bathroom. But transgender students cannot be denied access to their preferred bathroom or locker room because of other students’ discomfort. The law is for K-12. But if my daughter feels discomfort with a boy in the bathroom or locker room, she has no rights. Does it make me a homophobe or a hater if I don’t want my daughter forced to use a bathroom or locker room with a boy? Does that make me a right-wing extremist? In San Francisco, they have approved tax-payer funded transgender surgeries for the uninsured. Colleges around the nation are increasing the cost of health insurance to students to accommodate transgender operations that cost 50,000 dollars. Does it make me a right wing extremist because I believe tax-payer health insurance should not cover these kinds of procedures? Are these kinds of things the “middle?” Since when did it become the middle that it is perfectly fine for the government to make laws about soda intake, salt intake, fat intake, dictating to restaurants what food they should serve and how much? That’s the middle? And when it did become the “middle” that abortions after 20 weeks are perfectly ok for any reason?
JBH

Richmond, Canada

#37027 Jul 14, 2013
who="kristy"]
What is the “middle?” The progressives have moved the bar so far to the left, that the old middle is now considered the “extreme right.” There are no more “blue dog” democrats. The progressives just keep pushing their agendas (under the radar) to extremes and telling us they are in the moderate position. For example, they are pushing their transgender positions.

++++++++++

No, who you call the progressives do more of radical Neo-con policies that even the Neo-conservatives would not go to that extreme, such as the extension of Patriot Act started by Bush, the expansion of Prism programs to the too far degree, the acting on too many drones without substantial evidences, the breaking of International boundaries just like Bush did in Iraq war with no consideration to other jurisdictions, the hacking on the world making world backlashing to make US image going down on world stage and unlikeable just like that of Bush time, the extensive violation of civil liberty and freedom rights more than Bush had done in the snooping and spying on US people.
Never since history of any time, the Homeland security Department has grown to, like a big Empire with having huge areas of land, budgets and ammunition weapons, just to target the US people mostly.
Simultaneously, the US police is becoming militarized, like having more military-type trucks, equipment and increased ammunition to nail on the general public inside US, with unknown agenda looking like some secret police with no court orders or warrants to SEARCH THE PEOPLE, while a big number of untold and unknown victims have been evidently oppressed and suppressed.
There is no question US is the biggest big brother Police State right now on earth,as even in China, the Chinese would clash with police there and capture policemen while the Chinese police return with no firing power. in such confrontations.
THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO COUNTRY LIKE THIS AS USA ANYWHERE ON THE PLANET, obviously not Iran, Cuba, Russia, North Korea, Africa, Or China.
Many people have suffered beyond this, including lacking employment, while the rest don't care or don't know.
Obama is NO PROGRESSIVE IN SO DOING, but making the suppression of society in the oppressing crave so shown, as the most extreme fascist NAZI-LIKE hypocrite by carrying over more than the NEO-CON in the neo-radicalism of extremist program activities as such SINCE HISTORY OF ANY TIME, even the German NAZI AND RUSSIA'S STALIN COULD NOT MATCH OBAMA'S doing IN THE OLD DAYS.

“Happy, warm and comfortable”

Level 1

Since: Oct 10

Mountain hideaway, SE Spain

#37029 Jul 15, 2013
ritedownthemiddle wrote:
natural atmospheric trace gas isn't pollution.
He should also be reminded that "thermal pollution" is something LessFact invented when he was posting as NobodyYouKnow.
NobodyYouEverWantToKnow wrote:
That CO2 cannot be a 'pollutant'? Wrong. Anything CAN and IS a pollutant in a specific context. In this case, as a greenhouse gas causing 'thermal pollution' of the planet.
-
The point is really that the whole claim of 'CO2 is vital to life' and 'CO2 is plant food' promoted by Earthling is not so much that it is technically wrong, but that it is IRRELEVANT to the issue of CO2 as a 'thermal pollutant'. Agreed?
http://www.topix.com/forum/news/global-warmin...

Since: Mar 09

Anonymous Proxy

#37030 Jul 15, 2013
kristy wrote:
<quoted text>
What is the “middle?” The progressives have moved the bar so far to the left, that the old middle is now considered the “extreme right.” There are no more “blue dog” democrats. The progressives just keep pushing their agendas (under the radar) to extremes and telling us they are in the moderate position. For example, they are pushing their transgender positions. Massachusetts and California have now passed a law that any child who feels that they have sexual identity issues can use bathrooms, locker rooms, and changing areas for the gender with which they identify, but those transgenders who are not comfortable doing so should be provided with alternatives, such as a unisex or nurses station’s bathroom. But transgender students cannot be denied access to their preferred bathroom or locker room because of other students’ discomfort. The law is for K-12. But if my daughter feels discomfort with a boy in the bathroom or locker room, she has no rights. Does it make me a homophobe or a hater if I don’t want my daughter forced to use a bathroom or locker room with a boy? Does that make me a right-wing extremist? In San Francisco, they have approved tax-payer funded transgender surgeries for the uninsured. Colleges around the nation are increasing the cost of health insurance to students to accommodate transgender operations that cost 50,000 dollars. Does it make me a right wing extremist because I believe tax-payer health insurance should not cover these kinds of procedures? Are these kinds of things the “middle?” Since when did it become the middle that it is perfectly fine for the government to make laws about soda intake, salt intake, fat intake, dictating to restaurants what food they should serve and how much? That’s the middle? And when it did become the “middle” that abortions after 20 weeks are perfectly ok for any reason?
To you, anyone left of limbaugh is a leftist radical.
kristy

Oviedo, FL

#37031 Jul 15, 2013
Patriot AKA Bozo wrote:
<quoted text>
To you, anyone left of limbaugh is a leftist radical.
I see you are still deflecting. Do you have daughters? Would you be okay with your daughter changing into her gym clothes or showering with boys? Are you okay with taxpayer-funded transgender operations? But true to form, you won't answer these questions, you will just make the messenger out to be an extremist, even though what is being passed as laws in this country are not the "middle" but the extreme.
litesong

Monroe, WA

#37032 Jul 15, 2013
returded farm stuff wrote:
That is why the libertarians are so committed to cutting back on education.
libertarians are 'lazy re-pubic-lick-uns'.....
kristy

Oviedo, FL

#37033 Jul 15, 2013
JBH wrote:
who="kristy"]
What is the “middle?” The progressives have moved the bar so far to the left, that the old middle is now considered the “extreme right.” There are no more “blue dog” democrats. The progressives just keep pushing their agendas (under the radar) to extremes and telling us they are in the moderate position. For example, they are pushing their transgender positions.
++++++++++
No, who you call the progressives do more of radical Neo-con policies that even the Neo-conservatives would not go to that extreme, such as the extension of Patriot Act started by Bush, the expansion of Prism programs to the too far degree, the acting on too many drones without substantial evidences, the breaking of International boundaries just like Bush did in Iraq war with no consideration to other jurisdictions, the hacking on the world making world backlashing to make US image going down on world stage and unlikeable just like that of Bush time, the extensive violation of civil liberty and freedom rights more than Bush had done in the snooping and spying on US people.
Never since history of any time, the Homeland security Department has grown to, like a big Empire with having huge areas of land, budgets and ammunition weapons, just to target the US people mostly.
Simultaneously, the US police is becoming militarized, like having more military-type trucks, equipment and increased ammunition to nail on the general public inside US, with unknown agenda looking like some secret police with no court orders or warrants to SEARCH THE PEOPLE, while a big number of untold and unknown victims have been evidently oppressed and suppressed.
There is no question US is the biggest big brother Police State right now on earth,as even in China, the Chinese would clash with police there and capture policemen while the Chinese police return with no firing power. in such confrontations.
THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO COUNTRY LIKE THIS AS USA ANYWHERE ON THE PLANET, obviously not Iran, Cuba, Russia, North Korea, Africa, Or China.
Many people have suffered beyond this, including lacking employment, while the rest don't care or don't know.
Obama is NO PROGRESSIVE IN SO DOING, but making the suppression of society in the oppressing crave so shown, as the most extreme fascist NAZI-LIKE hypocrite by carrying over more than the NEO-CON in the neo-radicalism of extremist program activities as such SINCE HISTORY OF ANY TIME, even the German NAZI AND RUSSIA'S STALIN COULD NOT MATCH OBAMA'S doing IN THE OLD DAYS.
I have always been against the Patriot Act for these exact reasons. I remember getting into an argument with my mom who at the time totally agreed with that Act when it became law. I told her the government would use it in ways to take more and more control over the citizens. I told her then it was a slippery slope and it didn't take that long to get to where we are and our government now is telling us that is justified and totally ok...not "extreme." They are trying to tell us this is the "middle."

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