Paul Carpenter - Clarify the assisted suicide debate

Full story: The Morning Call

T here is a good way to resolve a large part of the debate over legalizing physician-assisted suicide.
Comments
21 - 33 of 33 Comments Last updated Mar 23, 2013
First Prev
of 2
Next Last
retpilot

Virginia Beach, VA

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#21
Aug 9, 2009
 
I agree completely, doctors will certainly get that last buck for writing the script if it is legal to decide when you want to go. Probably ought to take it out of their hands and let the health dept dispense the drugs.
retpilot

Virginia Beach, VA

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#22
Aug 9, 2009
 
Forks Gal wrote:
Paul,
I wholeheartedly agree with you that the Hippocratic Oath forbids abortion and dispensing deadly drugs.
However, just because we are killing 1 million (give or take) a year, doesn't justify adding to that.
As for putting down a suffering dog, my vet told me I had to put my dog down 6 years ago. I took my dog home to decide, hoping she would improve. She did. The vet had the wrong diagnosis because she wouldn't listen to me. I would agree that my dog is not the same as my children or parents, however, I would give so much to have had another 6 years with my sister, who died of cancer. Doctors are wrong, and families would be motivated by money (or frustration) to dispatch of their family members.
One wrong doesn't justify a second wrong. Your logic is faulty, as usual, Paul.
And I stand by what I've said again and again and again ... if the problem is lack of pain treatment, why isn't anyone calling for a "war on pain?" Medical researchers and drug discovery chemists, if given the call (or grant money) to focus on this problem, will.
But no ... let's just kill 'em, and save us all a lot of headache. After all, it works for unwanted fetuses!
The problem is being forced to stay alive when all quality of life is gone. Pain is a tougher problem because of abuse. Fine if they want to develop more pain drugs. It would be better if they found a cure for cancer. Take the money out of cancer treatment and I wonder how long it would take to find a cure.
retpilot

Virginia Beach, VA

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#23
Aug 9, 2009
 
Cornelia in S Whitehall wrote:
Hey, Paul, reread your Hippocratic oath! It forbids abortion with a pessary, whatever that is. No mention of any other method. By and large, your impulses are correct, but I strongly doubt the profit motive is what is really driving this. I suspect it is more a fear of murky waters and nasty lawsuits.
Lawsuits sure don't seem to be a problem in Oregon. I haven't heard of one.
retpilot

Virginia Beach, VA

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#24
Aug 9, 2009
 
Pain medication doesn't take care of everyones pain. Permanant sedation is one answer to that problem, but why???

“Too soon old, too late smart..”

Since: Feb 07

Bethlehem, PA

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#25
Aug 9, 2009
 
John-27 wrote:
...Perhaps ending palliative care is a bit unrealistic once a person would elect to begin the process of the end of life...
Paul said, "From the moment a patient expresses a wish to get help to end it all, the medical establishment will adhere to firm rules that say no medico can profit from palliative or any other medical care designed to thwart that wish. No more $400 a day per patient, no more any money at all. Zip..."
I didn't think he meant that palliative (or any other medical) care should stop, only the profit from it, since the commitment of the doctors' would certainly require them to provide the care. Most certainly. Since profit is not the motive, of course.
Very Concerned

United States

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#26
Aug 10, 2009
 
There hads been some dicsussion of pain meds here. Having worked hopsice, and going through it with both my parents, I have seen what they have to offer, and it is more than adequate. In hospice, it is usually an oncologist that manages the pain, and they are experts at it. The addiction issue has no effect on access either. The Hospice nurses and the docs involved do not hold back. The patient is dying. Addiction is simply irrelevant. It is not traditional pain that is the main issue. It is the emotional pain,a nd discomfort that tends to be the hardest.

Let me explain...

You see when someone dies of a long illness, their body goes through a series of "shutdowns", where the least important systems go first, and the body instinctively fights to survive. The way this usually ends involves what feel slike countless hours of deep, desperate, agonizing gasps for breath often minutes apart. The body conserves all it's energy to keep this going, so the patient cannont speak, or move, other than to take a huge breath that sounds and looks like they are drowning. It is nothing like the movies. it is slow, and litterally feels like you are watching your loved one suffocating slowly (which really you are). Pain meds do not make this process easier. Not because they are inneffective, but because there is no shutting off the body's instinct to survive.

Actually that last part is not entirely true depending on where you stand on assisted suicide. The point at which those last gasps begin is where I have gottent the question, "Why can't we just end this... He/she wouldn't want this".

You see, we as a society have done sucha good job making death and dying private, that very few of us know what really happens. We think people just "got to sleep" like in the movies. I wish it were that way... But it just isn't.
ImTiredOf_It

Brodheadsville, PA

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#27
Aug 10, 2009
 
ANN wrote:
Does anyone believe that parents want their children to become doctors to help people? Hardly. Does anyone believe that doctors go into medicine to help people? Hardly. Does anyone believe that politicians go into politics to serve people? Hardly. It's all about the money.
I tend to agree with you.
ImTiredOf_It

Brodheadsville, PA

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#28
Aug 10, 2009
 
Sam wrote:
Paul, what is this? Irratainment? You can do better.
<<tyrannical clerics>>
I think ONLY people who have watched a loved on beg for relief should comment on the subject.
And, if you really think that G*d will take care of the pain, you've never witnessed the reality.
Well I have been in the middle of a health situation with a parent who has been right a death's doorstep, many times, due to strange complications that came about from an autoimmune disease. Regarding death, in the last 10 years my parent and I have discussed various health scenarios and how I should handle them. What we came up with is simple:

First off, my parent has an awesome love of life that is well beyond my own. In their case, it all boils down to 3 things:
1)Pain
2)The capacity to think and reason normally, and laugh
3)A reasonable ability to live independently.

If any of the 3 are compromised, my parent does not want to live, and should not take any extraordinary measures to keep them alive. Therefore, when the next major health event would occur, my mission would be to make sure the doctors WILL take extraordinary measures to keep my loved one pain-free.

Pain narcotics, in a short time, will put a person out of their misery from what I have see. You see, at one point the docs administered a large dose of 3 pain medications against my wishes and I almost lost my parent because of the pain meds. However, going through that taught me a valuable (and positive) lesson about pain narcotics

No, I don't believe God is there looking out for our pain and suffering. While here on Earth, we are here ONLY to be good-- and do good. Building empires, acquiring wealth, having a lot of sex because it feels good and primping our bodies means absolutely nothing when we reach the pearly gates. Trump, Joe the homeless guy, Evelyn the doctor and all of the little blue collar workers will be judged by the same bar of "good and bad".

If you did good, it does NOT mean you will be pain free, though it will guarantee an easier entry through the pearly gates, Therefore, at the end of our Earthly lives, it is OUR job to do what is right for ourselves after doing what was right for the world when we were vibrant.

Period.

I, myself, just want to exit at the first major setback. Just keep me pain-free and I'll be fine.
Very Concerned

United States

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#29
Aug 10, 2009
 
ImTiredOf_It wrote:
<quoted text>
Well I have been in the middle of a health situation with a parent who has been right a death's doorstep, many times, due to strange complications that came about from an autoimmune disease. Regarding death, in the last 10 years my parent and I have discussed various health scenarios and how I should handle them. What we came up with is simple:
First off, my parent has an awesome love of life that is well beyond my own. In their case, it all boils down to 3 things:
1)Pain
2)The capacity to think and reason normally, and laugh
3)A reasonable ability to live independently.
If any of the 3 are compromised, my parent does not want to live, and should not take any extraordinary measures to keep them alive. Therefore, when the next major health event would occur, my mission would be to make sure the doctors WILL take extraordinary measures to keep my loved one pain-free.
Pain narcotics, in a short time, will put a person out of their misery from what I have see. You see, at one point the docs administered a large dose of 3 pain medications against my wishes and I almost lost my parent because of the pain meds. However, going through that taught me a valuable (and positive) lesson about pain narcotics
No, I don't believe God is there looking out for our pain and suffering. While here on Earth, we are here ONLY to be good-- and do good. Building empires, acquiring wealth, having a lot of sex because it feels good and primping our bodies means absolutely nothing when we reach the pearly gates. Trump, Joe the homeless guy, Evelyn the doctor and all of the little blue collar workers will be judged by the same bar of "good and bad".
If you did good, it does NOT mean you will be pain free, though it will guarantee an easier entry through the pearly gates, Therefore, at the end of our Earthly lives, it is OUR job to do what is right for ourselves after doing what was right for the world when we were vibrant.
Period.
I, myself, just want to exit at the first major setback. Just keep me pain-free and I'll be fine.
Very well said!
I love that "laughter" is on the list of things that is non-negotiable. We should all be that focused and positive with life.

I also agree that the Lord will not shield you from suffering on this earth. I beleive he gave us the poppy plant for a reason. Not for recreational use, but as a tool to allow us to be compasionate with one another when we need to be.

For me, the right to doe on one's own terms as a political issue is all about fear. people are afraid that if they allow it in some cases, then someone one day will misuse it, and euthanize them or their loved ones. That fear criples the conversation.

As for religion, I believe we should all act in ways that respects our religions. However, there is a reson we don't legislate from the Bible or any other regligious text. If you don't beleive in abortion, then don't get one. If you don't beleive ion adoctor assisted suicide, then don't ask for it. But don't try to puch your beliefs on others through the law. Be an evangalist if you want. Preach and teach, and convinve others to think like you do. But don't force them against their will.
Very Concerned

United States

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#30
Aug 10, 2009
 
ANN wrote:
Does anyone believe that parents want their children to become doctors to help people? Hardly. Does anyone believe that doctors go into medicine to help people? Hardly. Does anyone believe that politicians go into politics to serve people? Hardly. It's all about the money.
Since you asked, yes I do believe that. I beleive there are plenty of people that get into medicine or politics for the wrong reasons, but I also beleive there are just as many - if not more that want to make a difference. That spirit may very well fade as they dive deeper into the corruption and money focus, but that does not represent the majority.

And as a parent, let me go on the record saying I want my kids to make a difference. I was all set to go into medical school myself, and changed majors to Social Work, because they had more opportunities to talk to people, and help them that way. My parents were more than supportive, and I will support my children in the same way.

you may believe it is all about money, and that may be the case for you. But that is not how weverybody thinks.
John-27

Los Angeles, CA

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#31
Aug 10, 2009
 
Sarah-Sally wrote:
<quoted text>
Paul said, "From the moment a patient expresses a wish to get help to end it all, the medical establishment will adhere to firm rules that say no medico can profit from palliative or any other medical care designed to thwart that wish. No more $400 a day per patient, no more any money at all. Zip..."
I didn't think he meant that palliative (or any other medical) care should stop, only the profit from it, since the commitment of the doctors' would certainly require them to provide the care. Most certainly. Since profit is not the motive, of course.
My apologies to Paul and to all of you. It was a misreading on my part. Having a brief acquaintance with Paul, it seemed very much out of character for him based on his insights in the past.

I'm dealing with this in my own home right now, so I'm a little touchy about the subject. That leads to knee-jerk reactions sometimes.

John
Michael

Allentown, PA

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#32
Aug 10, 2009
 
ANN wrote:
Does anyone believe that parents want their children to become doctors to help people? Hardly. Does anyone believe that doctors go into medicine to help people? Hardly. Does anyone believe that politicians go into politics to serve people? Hardly. It's all about the money.
I found this and the Paul's article very insulting to doctors and patients. I am an adult survivor of tetralogy of Fallot with plumonary atresia. In the 1940's a procedure was created at the behest of Dr Helen Taussig, a pediatric cardiologist. She was devastated that there was nothing that could be done for her blue babies (tetralogy of Fallot) and urged Dr Alfred Blalock to come up with a way to get more blood to the lungs. It was only a temporary solution and it created the whole field of heart surgery. Why did they and still are working towards a more permanant solution if this kept the patients alive enough but still sick?
Ifonlyoureallykn ew

Macungie, PA

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#33
Mar 23, 2013
 
Incorrect, incorrect and again incorrect. Sad that those who give 14 or more years after high school, leave with almost $200,000 in debt, never see their families and are regulated by the "suits" in the hospitals as to how not to be a caring docs anymore are thought of by people like you. When sick, keep on driving out of the area then and find someone who cares about you somewhere else...

Tell me when this thread is updated: (Registration is not required)

Add to my Tracker Send me an email

First Prev
of 2
Next Last

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Other Recent Orefield Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
PA Who do you support for Governor in Pennsylvania... (Oct '10) 1 hr Obamacare Surprise 51,274
PA Who do you support for U.S. Senate in Pennsylva... (Oct '10) Tue But Not Hussein O... 3,898
Four charged with DUI placed in Carbon... Aug 17 do what robin did 2
kidspeace housing illigals and safety Aug 12 jujubean 3
Police investigate murder-suicide Jul 28 Have U Boscoved t... 1
Weekly Alarm Jul '14 Tommy 1
Tamaqua drug sweep nets 20 Jul '14 Mark 23

Search the Orefield Forum:
•••

Orefield News Video

•••
Orefield Dating

more search filters

less search filters

•••

Orefield Jobs

•••
Enter and win $5000
•••

Orefield People Search

Addresses and phone numbers for FREE

•••

Orefield News, Events & Info

Click for news, events and info in Orefield
•••

Personal Finance

Mortgages [ See current mortgage rates ]
•••