secession from the union
With Rub

Knoxville, TN

#21 Nov 20, 2012
Ex Lax wrote:
<quoted text>There is no provision in the constitution that permits a state to secede from the union.
http://www.google.com/url...
You don't know your history. This was discussed and provisioned by the constitution.For the reason stated above. Thomas Jefferson's opinion was that it be legal because that is exactly what America did to break away from Britain. It was a protective measure for the assurance that no federal government would or could pass laws that are unjust against the people. That was what the confederacy did because of very little representation in congress and the Morril act which taxed everyone (the south)in agriculture and commerce.(everyone in the Ag. states) I don't have time to explain this so google "Morril act of 1860" Re-read the original constitution and you will see it.(if you ever have read it). You can argue with me, but you'll lose.

With Rub

Knoxville, TN

#22 Nov 20, 2012
Constitution wrote:
<quoted text>
Please identify article, section, and/or clause of the Constitution in which this guarantee of secession appears. Oh, and it's secede (to withdraw from an alliance) as opposed to succeed (which you used).
Then why was it NOT illegal for the south to secede in 1861? Or do you even know what the civil war was even fought over? I doubt it. More importantly, the right to secede if pretty much, WHAT THE CONSTITUTION IS ABOUT. It isn't about law of the land for fed. government, it's about freedom of the people and their respective states. Damn, do you need to learn this all over again?
With Rub

Knoxville, TN

#23 Nov 20, 2012
Constitution wrote:
<quoted text>
Please identify article, section, and/or clause of the Constitution in which this guarantee of secession appears. Oh, and it's secede (to withdraw from an alliance) as opposed to succeed (which you used).
This is the from the very FIRST part of the constitution,..."That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, that whenever ant form of government becomes destructive to these ends, IT IS THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO ALTER OR TO ABOLISH IT, and institute a new government..." How's that sweetheart?
Constitution

United States

#24 Nov 20, 2012
With Rub wrote:
<quoted text>You don't know your history. This was discussed and provisioned by the constitution.For the reason stated above. Thomas Jefferson's opinion was that it be legal because that is exactly what America did to break away from Britain. It was a protective measure for the assurance that no federal government would or could pass laws that are unjust against the people. That was what the confederacy did because of very little representation in congress and the Morril act which taxed everyone (the south)in agriculture and commerce.(everyone in the Ag. states) I don't have time to explain this so google "Morril act of 1860" Re-read the original constitution and you will see it.(if you ever have read it). You can argue with me, but you'll lose.
The "original" constitution would be the one that was ratified in 1787 (although I could have the date wrong-1789) and is the one that still exists today. Where is the provision in the constitution which outlines the steps necessary for a state to withdraw from the union?
Constitution

United States

#25 Nov 20, 2012
With Rub wrote:
<quoted text>Then why was it NOT illegal for the south to secede in 1861? Or do you even know what the civil war was even fought over? I doubt it. More importantly, the right to secede if pretty much, WHAT THE CONSTITUTION IS ABOUT. It isn't about law of the land for fed. government, it's about freedom of the people and their respective states. Damn, do you need to learn this all over again?
Maybe you need to learn this all over again. The constitution is the law of the land; it is the plan created by the founding fathers and subsequently ratified by the states to govern the nation.. And it was "illegal" for the South to secede (although illegal is really a poor wording choice) otherwise those states would have been freely allowed to withdraw from the union. As for the reasons for the Civil War, I would sum up its causes by saying it was a war over Southern protection of an economic system and the power derived from that system. I would also categorize it as a dispute in the making from the early days of the union when founding fathers fought over the issue during the writing of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. In regard to your comments about the purpose of the Constitution, I would call your attention to the actual content of articles 1-7 which deal with the establishment of the government as well as two amendments 9 and 10 which deal with the rights of the states and the people. I would also encourage you to consult the US Supreme Court case Texas v. White (1869).
Constitution

United States

#26 Nov 20, 2012
With Rub wrote:
<quoted text>This is the from the very FIRST part of the constitution,..."That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, that whenever ant form of government becomes destructive to these ends, IT IS THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO ALTER OR TO ABOLISH IT, and institute a new government..." How's that sweetheart?
That's great, darling! My only concern is that you drew you evidence from the Declaration of Independence and not the Constitution. My original question was, where in the Constitution does the right of secession appear? It would strengthen your argument if you would cite from the document in question.
Dixie

Wartburg, TN

#27 Nov 20, 2012
Americans have the right to say shit, not say shit, shoot shit, drink shit, vote for shit (without paying shit), keep their shit private (most of the time), and keep soldiers out of their shit (most of the time).

If youíre accused of shit, the government canít treat you like shit, or try you again after youíve been acquitted of shit. And if youíre convicted of shit, the governmentís only allowed to do so much shit to you.

If the government needs your shit, they have to pay you for it.

And they can never do shit to you unless they follow their own shitty laws.

Um... oh yeah. We thought about the whole slavery thing, and decided that that shit was wrong.... Sorry.(And if you want shit for all the shit we forced you to do for free, youíre just shit out of luck.)

This Constitution outlines the powers delegated to the United States.

If itís not in here, itís up to the States and the People.
Ex Lax

Burbank, CA

#28 Nov 20, 2012
With Rub wrote:
<quoted text>You don't know your history. This was discussed and provisioned by the constitution.For the reason stated above. Thomas Jefferson's opinion was that it be legal because that is exactly what America did to break away from Britain. It was a protective measure for the assurance that no federal government would or could pass laws that are unjust against the people. That was what the confederacy did because of very little representation in congress and the Morril act which taxed everyone (the south)in agriculture and commerce.(everyone in the Ag. states) I don't have time to explain this so google "Morril act of 1860" Re-read the original constitution and you will see it.(if you ever have read it). You can argue with me, but you'll lose.
I know my history very well.I grew up in Scott County ,Tenn. so don`t think because I have some kind of California IPS that I am a Hippie or Liberal. I know and understand liberals better than you ever will. That is not the point of this discussion. I do not care for Obama or Pelosi, believe me on that. Not my reason for trying to talk sense to you and a lot of other people. You do not have the legal right to secede from the Union. Constitution in his/her post explained it pretty clear.You can say what you want and argue all you like. If you try to secede you will lose and lose big.You can protest whatever you like as long as you are peaceful, break the law and pay the consequences.Secession is not legal under the constitution, this was pretty much settled at Appomattox Court House in 1865.

The South was able to get away with seceding and forming another for two big reasons. One the Federal government then was weak, it did not have a big standing army,FBI,Homeland Security, Federal Marshals and a lot of other things, today it does. The other reason is James Buchanan, who was from South , was the president. He did not make any effort to prevent it. That is not the case today.

Constitution in his/her post explained why the South seceded, it was led by the people with money who held power in the South. Today the people who have the money and hold the power are not going to lead any such move.They are not going to risk their fortune on a cause that is bound to fail.

By the way,my ancestors are from East Tenn, and they all fought for the Union, as did most people from the area.

The liberals do hold all the power in congress, the House is in the hands of conservatives, the liberals do not have the senate totally locked up.President Obama won by 2% on the popular vote and it was close in some states. They can call it a landslide if they want too, depends on the definition of a landslide.He is the president but he is going to have to work with the House. In fact they all need to start working togeather and resolve the problems we have, which are many. The answer is not secession.The answer is work togeather to try and solve the big problems,which right now is our economy.
Rub

Knoxville, TN

#29 Nov 21, 2012
To Constitution,
First I will say that you are correct in most of the facts. My argument is that under the original constitution, it does not give a right to secede but doesn't prohibit it either. It was always a troublesome question with many views and opinions. The first states to threaten to secede was Massachusetts along with several other New England states. Their reasons were because of our involvement with the Louisiana Purchase and disagreement with our invasion of Canada in the War of 1812. Jefferson and Hamilton discussed the matter and it was Hamilton's view of a large federal union and governmental power over the individual. Thomas's point was that if secession was was wrong, then the Revolutionary War With England was in fact illegal and that America was founded on illegal and immoral acts of treason. Thomas made clear that the founders believed that a people had the right to secede from an unjust, destructive government in persuit of freedom and happiness and that to deny the right is nothing short of hypocrisy. I stand with Jefferson's point of view.I don't believe that secession from the union is a wise idea. But I do believe that we do hold the constitutional right of secession from an unjust government. I am not highly educated, but my jr. college education did show me more than the cookie cut reformist set of facts. I appreciate your opinions and views, as you are obviously more educated than I am. But I still hold on what is right.
Rub

Knoxville, TN

#30 Nov 21, 2012
" If the Southern States hold no right of secession, then the secession of the thirteen colonies from Great Britain is invalid, and the revolutionary war to secure independence unlawful. In such case, we all remain as colonies, and are subject to the British Crown. The Secession of the Colonies, and the Secession of the thirteen States, can not be one good and the other evil, they are both one or the other. Similar conditions existed in both cases and both felt their liberties threatened."

--Thomas Guinn
geez

Oneida, TN

#31 Nov 21, 2012
I wish you people would get over the idea of secession from the USA. Sore losers?? You plan on being part of Mexico? You can move there, cause they are moving here for a better life. You have let extreme far right radio and TV talkheads mess with your thinking. And by the way, when TN seceded from the Union to join the South, SCOTT COUNTY then in turn seceded from the State of TN in disagreement with that. ALL of my relatives fought for the Union that I know about. And I also had quite a few relatives who fought in the American Revolution for our right to be a free country.

I agree with UNITED WE STAND/DIVIDED WE FALL. Also, JFK's..."Ask not what your country can do for you...ask what you can do for your country." If the 13 original c's hadn't stuck together during the Revolution (and the French hadn't shown up with MAJOR help), we might still be under British rule. And the Civil War, in and of itself, was a TOTAL major waste of American human life on both sides. Amazing what great friends we are with both the Brits and French now days...if only WE'ALL in America could learn to just get along with one another. We seem to just "luv" internal fighting, while the rest of the world moves onward without us, some totally ignoring our arrogance/others making fun of us constantly shooting ourselves in the foot.
Tennessean

Gate City, VA

#32 Nov 21, 2012
Constitution wrote:
<quoted text>
Maybe you need to learn this all over again. The constitution is the law of the land; it is the plan created by the founding fathers and subsequently ratified by the states to govern the nation.. And it was "illegal" for the South to secede (although illegal is really a poor wording choice) otherwise those states would have been freely allowed to withdraw from the union. As for the reasons for the Civil War, I would sum up its causes by saying it was a war over Southern protection of an economic system and the power derived from that system. I would also categorize it as a dispute in the making from the early days of the union when founding fathers fought over the issue during the writing of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. In regard to your comments about the purpose of the Constitution, I would call your attention to the actual content of articles 1-7 which deal with the establishment of the government as well as two amendments 9 and 10 which deal with the rights of the states and the people. I would also encourage you to consult the US Supreme Court case Texas v. White (1869).
Very well said. I'm glad to know at least some of the citizenry still studies American history.
Tennessean

Gate City, VA

#33 Nov 21, 2012
With Rub wrote:
<quoted text>Then why was it NOT illegal for the south to secede in 1861? Or do you even know what the civil war was even fought over? I doubt it. More importantly, the right to secede if pretty much, WHAT THE CONSTITUTION IS ABOUT. It isn't about law of the land for fed. government, it's about freedom of the people and their respective states. Damn, do you need to learn this all over again?
Curious to know your thoughts: what do you think caused the Civil War? It's interesting that the Civil War can still turn into quite a heated discussion today.
Tennessean

Gate City, VA

#34 Nov 21, 2012
Ex Lax wrote:
<quoted text>I know my history very well.I grew up in Scott County ,Tenn. so don`t think because I have some kind of California IPS that I am a Hippie or Liberal. I know and understand liberals better than you ever will. That is not the point of this discussion. I do not care for Obama or Pelosi, believe me on that. Not my reason for trying to talk sense to you and a lot of other people. You do not have the legal right to secede from the Union. Constitution in his/her post explained it pretty clear.You can say what you want and argue all you like. If you try to secede you will lose and lose big.You can protest whatever you like as long as you are peaceful, break the law and pay the consequences.Secession is not legal under the constitution, this was pretty much settled at Appomattox Court House in 1865.
The South was able to get away with seceding and forming another for two big reasons. One the Federal government then was weak, it did not have a big standing army,FBI,Homeland Security, Federal Marshals and a lot of other things, today it does. The other reason is James Buchanan, who was from South , was the president. He did not make any effort to prevent it. That is not the case today.
Constitution in his/her post explained why the South seceded, it was led by the people with money who held power in the South. Today the people who have the money and hold the power are not going to lead any such move.They are not going to risk their fortune on a cause that is bound to fail.
By the way,my ancestors are from East Tenn, and they all fought for the Union, as did most people from the area.
The liberals do hold all the power in congress, the House is in the hands of conservatives, the liberals do not have the senate totally locked up.President Obama won by 2% on the popular vote and it was close in some states. They can call it a landslide if they want too, depends on the definition of a landslide.He is the president but he is going to have to work with the House. In fact they all need to start working togeather and resolve the problems we have, which are many. The answer is not secession.The answer is work togeather to try and solve the big problems,which right now is our economy.
Well said, well said.
Tennessean

Gate City, VA

#35 Nov 21, 2012
Rub wrote:
To Constitution,
First I will say that you are correct in most of the facts. My argument is that under the original constitution, it does not give a right to secede but doesn't prohibit it either. It was always a troublesome question with many views and opinions. The first states to threaten to secede was Massachusetts along with several other New England states. Their reasons were because of our involvement with the Louisiana Purchase and disagreement with our invasion of Canada in the War of 1812. Jefferson and Hamilton discussed the matter and it was Hamilton's view of a large federal union and governmental power over the individual. Thomas's point was that if secession was was wrong, then the Revolutionary War With England was in fact illegal and that America was founded on illegal and immoral acts of treason. Thomas made clear that the founders believed that a people had the right to secede from an unjust, destructive government in persuit of freedom and happiness and that to deny the right is nothing short of hypocrisy. I stand with Jefferson's point of view.I don't believe that secession from the union is a wise idea. But I do believe that we do hold the constitutional right of secession from an unjust government. I am not highly educated, but my jr. college education did show me more than the cookie cut reformist set of facts. I appreciate your opinions and views, as you are obviously more educated than I am. But I still hold on what is right.
To Rub: your response to Constitution certainly shows you're more educated than you think.
Spitemyface

Elmhurst, IL

#36 Nov 21, 2012
Eyes OF Texas wrote:
One regiment of Texans and a few Tennessans and we will drive the Dammed Yankees into Atlantic Ocean.What is to think about?
We will invade, occupy and become G*D Damned Yankees!=-)
Dixie

Wartburg, TN

#37 Nov 21, 2012
Ex Lax wrote:
<quoted text>He is the president but he is going to have to work with the House. In fact they all need to start working togeather and resolve the problems we have, which are many. The answer is not secession.The answer is work togeather to try and solve the big problems,which right now is our economy.
Good luck! When the fleece what money is left to their pockets, they'll leave her to burn. They have no reason or accountability. They could care less if we turn into a 3rd World Country. The economy is now in worse shape than Greece and you see what's happened there. It's in worse shape than any of the Eurozone. It will collapse..and I don't think anyone in Washington will change until it hits them in the pocketbook which will be as long as they can keep kicking the can. The financial numbers of the debt and the budget are astounding, the Fed's printing so much money were gonna run out of trees. You watched the USSR collapse in the 80's and the exact thing is getting ready to happen here. I see no desire from either party to turn it around. 56% off Americans pay no taxes while the rest support them. I doubt we'll have to succeed. We'll just have to learn Chinese which will own us just like the coal mines they are buying up in Virginia as fast as the Dem's close them down. Our Govt. bans offshore oil, block the Canada pipeline, bankrupt coal, take over healthcare, ban cheaper drugs from import from outside the country, give billions to fat cat bankers who were responsible for the economy collapse, implement NAFTA so companies can ship billions of jobs overseas and those companies pay 0 taxes, throw billions to Afghan, Iran, Pakistan, Egypt which last I checked the Muslim brotherhood would like to wipe us off the map. You start to wonder.. is there an Agenda? I'm open to your suggestions of how we can turn this around cause we just got 4 more years of the same? Folks it was like the Titantic hitting the iceberg, then slamming it in reverse and backing into it again on the other side. When it collapses you won't be worried about what the Constitution says, you'll be worried about your next can of beans and where you will get them. So give me some ideas of how we shall turn this around please?
Ex Lax

Burbank, CA

#38 Nov 21, 2012
How do we turn it around? I don't think it will be easy and I am not a genius by any means. I believe though that this country has got to reverse the trade balance. I was against NAFTA the way it was written, same with favored Nation Status for China. No way can a US manufacturing company compete with the cheap labor in China or Mexico,plus they do not concern themselves with enviornmental standards. We are importing too much of what we use. Probably the only way this can be changed is by tariffs on imports. That will go over like a lead balloon, however at this time manufacturing is only about 9% of our GDP and from what I have read it needs to be about 25% of the GDP. The other thing is we need to start living withing our means, if you can`t afford it don`t buy it. Right now most of what we buy is from China anyway, so if we cut back on non essential items, especially if it is an imported item, it would help.The other thing that we can do that will save money at every level is legalize pot. I do not use it ,want anything to do with it but that is not stopping people from using it. Legalize it and tax it. Tax the income on it too. This will put a lot of gangsters out of business and free up law enforcement to pursue more serious crimes. Treat it like alchol.
Now tax money is spent on trying to stop it and I think that is a waste of our tax dollars and we could use the extra billions the tax on it would generate. I know this is objectionable to a lot of people, but you are only fooling yourself if you think the current system is stopping anyone from using it. Meth no.It is too dangerous and deadly. I believe too we are too involved in other parts of the world. Too much is spent on foreign operations. We cannot not control the world and we cannot make people in other parts of the world live the way we want thme too. We need to trim it down. That is a start, but i doubt any of it will ever get off the ground.
Dixie wrote:
<quoted text>
Good luck! When the fleece what money is left to their pockets, they'll leave her to burn. They have no reason or accountability. They could care less if we turn into a 3rd World Country. The economy is now in worse shape than Greece and you see what's happened there. It's in worse shape than any of the Eurozone. It will collapse..and I don't think anyone in Washington will change until it hits them in the pocketbook which will be as long as they can keep kicking the can. The financial numbers of the debt and the budget are astounding, the Fed's printing so much money were gonna run out of trees. You watched the USSR collapse in the 80's and the exact thing is getting ready to happen here. I see no desire from either party to turn it around. 56% off Americans pay no taxes while the rest support them. I doubt we'll have to succeed. We'll just have to learn Chinese which will own us just like the coal mines they are buying up in Virginia as fast as the Dem's close them down. Our Govt. bans offshore oil, block the Canada pipeline, bankrupt coal, take over healthcare, ban cheaper drugs from import from outside the country, give billions to fat cat bankers who were responsible for the economy collapse, implement NAFTA so companies can ship billions of jobs overseas and those companies pay 0 taxes, throw billions to Afghan, Iran, Pakistan, Egypt which last I checked the Muslim brotherhood would like to wipe us off the map. You start to wonder.. is there an Agenda? I'm open to your suggestions of how we can turn this around cause we just got 4 more years of the same? Folks it was like the Titantic hitting the iceberg, then slamming it in reverse and backing into it again on the other side. When it collapses you won't be worried about what the Constitution says, you'll be worried about your next can of beans and where you will get them. So give me some ideas of how we shall turn this around please?
Dixie

Wartburg, TN

#39 Nov 21, 2012
1.Repeal NAFTA, 2. Stop giving GE and Halliburton etc free tax status..ie no taxes 3. Put restrictions back on Wal Street, don't allow banks to invest peoples money any way they want 4. Put back in place rules on Wal Street that Clinton repealed 5. Seal borders with Mexico with border fence 6. Detain and Deport all illegal aliens 7. Fine and Jail companies that hire them 8. Institute Flat Tax on all 9. Privitise all schools with vouchers and close ones which are under par 10. Start using Natural Gas on all vehicles in US -easy conversion kits can be put on all gas powered cars today 10. promote clean coal and open more nuclear 11. Stop China from stealing our computer data and company secrets via cyberwar 12 Stop Afghan war and bring troops home 13. Close all US foreign bases non essential..do we still need a base in burmuda? pump that money back home 14. Study how china, japan and india teach and develop science and implement that here 15. All people getting welfare required to do meaningful work if it is to sweep a floor or dig a ditch, same for prisoners..16. Ban lobbyists from Washington, 17 If elected to Senate or Congress can't work as Lobbyist or for any Company for 10years after they are out of office.illegal to accept position as member of their Boards of Directors.18 Take control of the Federal Reserve make it's meetings public and audit it,,,ie the list can go on and on and on..........

I agree with you but in reality I think none of your or my ideas will ever be implemented. The Big Shots, 1%, Lobbyists, Senators, Congress, Politicians, Wal Street bankers are eating up the fat and not going to make any of those changes unless forced. I hate to be pessimistic but I think I'm just being realistic. It will crash.. maybe it is God's will but I can see it coming and neither party of our Govt. seem to care. It is a sad state and so will be the future if things continue as they are. The people know what needs done.. but the smell of money is not going to remove the corruption in our Govt. and so many people are dependent on those welfare checks that they will vote for who ever promises them that silver spoon or free cell phone with a food stamp card. Kinda feels like we are in a car speeding towards a cliff with no breaks, and I hope I am wrong folks but I think we are in for a very bumpy ride...
Ex Lax

Burbank, CA

#40 Nov 21, 2012
I agree with you but as you said, not going to happen. Too many fat cats making big money on it. I doubt we need a lot of military bases we got around the world.
Dixie wrote:
1.Repeal NAFTA, 2. Stop giving GE and Halliburton etc free tax status..ie no taxes 3. Put restrictions back on Wal Street, don't allow banks to invest peoples money any way they want 4. Put back in place rules on Wal Street that Clinton repealed 5. Seal borders with Mexico with border fence 6. Detain and Deport all illegal aliens 7. Fine and Jail companies that hire them 8. Institute Flat Tax on all 9. Privitise all schools with vouchers and close ones which are under par 10. Start using Natural Gas on all vehicles in US -easy conversion kits can be put on all gas powered cars today 10. promote clean coal and open more nuclear 11. Stop China from stealing our computer data and company secrets via cyberwar 12 Stop Afghan war and bring troops home 13. Close all US foreign bases non essential..do we still need a base in burmuda? pump that money back home 14. Study how china, japan and india teach and develop science and implement that here 15. All people getting welfare required to do meaningful work if it is to sweep a floor or dig a ditch, same for prisoners..16. Ban lobbyists from Washington, 17 If elected to Senate or Congress can't work as Lobbyist or for any Company for 10years after they are out of office.illegal to accept position as member of their Boards of Directors.18 Take control of the Federal Reserve make it's meetings public and audit it,,,ie the list can go on and on and on..........
I agree with you but in reality I think none of your or my ideas will ever be implemented. The Big Shots, 1%, Lobbyists, Senators, Congress, Politicians, Wal Street bankers are eating up the fat and not going to make any of those changes unless forced. I hate to be pessimistic but I think I'm just being realistic. It will crash.. maybe it is God's will but I can see it coming and neither party of our Govt. seem to care. It is a sad state and so will be the future if things continue as they are. The people know what needs done.. but the smell of money is not going to remove the corruption in our Govt. and so many people are dependent on those welfare checks that they will vote for who ever promises them that silver spoon or free cell phone with a food stamp card. Kinda feels like we are in a car speeding towards a cliff with no breaks, and I hope I am wrong folks but I think we are in for a very bumpy ride...

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