ski resort double murder-1978
Freddie Mac

Braintree, MA

#1787 May 17, 2010
I went back and read some of the articles posted on Nighttraits. Either the burglars knew exactly what they needed to do to pull this job off or they were totally clueless.

The break-in occured on a Sunday night. The lifts close at 4:30PM. The bar stays open a little longer, sometimes a lot longer. One article says that there was someone there until around 8 PM.....doing what I don't know. The janitor comes in at midnight, or at least that's when he's supposed to come in. Either way the article says the two groomers were shot somewhere around midnight-1 o'clock AM. That only leaves four hours total to bust out a two foot square floor safe poured in with concrete ..... or something like concrete. How the heck could they think they're gonna get the safe out in four hours if it's poured in correctly? They must have used power tools like a chipping hammer or something. It would make a heck of a racket. According to the articles, the two groomers were said to have come in the office door that goes outside on the east end of the building. That door was not the normal door that they used to get into the chalet for warm ups. From what I understand, they used to come in the west end of the building, closest to the slopes. The article also says that they usually came in every two hours to warm up. I wonder if the groomers came in the normal door on the west end and heard the noise in the office and went back outside and took a look around the outside of the building and entered from the east end and surprised the burglars. It sounds like that's where the shooting started. I just don't know how you would think you're gonna bust out a safe in a couple hours.

Sunday night was the only night you could do a job like this because they were opened for night skiing every other night of the week and the lifts didn't close until 10 PM, the bar closed after that.

I looked at the picture of the safe and the hole they cut in it. It doesn't look like it was cut with a torch. Looks like it was cut with a grinder and cutting wheel. Nobody cuts that straight with a torch.

....... my suspicions remain the same.....inside job.
Janey

Fredonia, NY

#1788 May 17, 2010
Thanks Freddie Mac for all your insight. Did you see the pic of where the safe was chipped away? It doesn't look like it would take very long to free the safe.
Did you know the janitor kid? He left the area very soon after and is living in the Pittsburgh area. His Aunt is the historian and when asked about Ski Wing, She says she doesn't remember the 70s.?!?!
justloafing

Maysville, NC

#1789 May 17, 2010
Hi, I just got done reading all the posts here. You all are good and this really makes for a great read. I pray for all families involved in the cases stated in this thread and hope the murders are not so cold.

I was in W. NY when the chair backup happened. There was a link to an article( I could not get it to come up). Here is one that I have. Also skied when it was Wing Hollow a couple of times.

http://fultonhistory.com/Process%20small/News...

One post talked about a Austrian that was rotten to the corps. Another Austrian came up too (Hans Aeur) Hans Auer is a very upstanding man. I just had to say that. He was the head ski instructor when it was Wing Hollow (The year after Grostal.) and maybe a little bit as Wing. I am not sure if he was there during Ski Wing or not. If he was it was a short time.

I have been in touch with a person that has been on the property and he took some pictures. The pictures were for lost ski areas so not a whole lot of things that are connected to the case. Yes he had permission by John Walsh. He talked with John and said Walsh had it pretty zipped up as far as being posted and the front gate being well blocked. So much so a ATV would have a hard time getting on the property. Here is a link to those pictures. You can double quick on the thumbs to make them bigger and double click again to blow them up even more.

http://www.snowjournal.com/page.php...

Probably not much help but pretty cool since not to many people have been in there for a long time (2009)
amigobirdy

Tucson, AZ

#1790 May 17, 2010
Freddie Mac wrote:
I went back and read some of the articles posted on Nighttraits. Either the burglars knew exactly what they needed to do to pull this job off or they were totally clueless.
The break-in occured on a Sunday night. The lifts close at 4:30PM. The bar stays open a little longer, sometimes a lot longer. One article says that there was someone there until around 8 PM.....doing what I don't know. The janitor comes in at midnight, or at least that's when he's supposed to come in. Either way the article says the two groomers were shot somewhere around midnight-1 o'clock AM. That only leaves four hours total to bust out a two foot square floor safe poured in with concrete ..... or something like concrete. How the heck could they think they're gonna get the safe out in four hours if it's poured in correctly? They must have used power tools like a chipping hammer or something. It would make a heck of a racket. According to the articles, the two groomers were said to have come in the office door that goes outside on the east end of the building. That door was not the normal door that they used to get into the chalet for warm ups. From what I understand, they used to come in the west end of the building, closest to the slopes. The article also says that they usually came in every two hours to warm up. I wonder if the groomers came in the normal door on the west end and heard the noise in the office and went back outside and took a look around the outside of the building and entered from the east end and surprised the burglars. It sounds like that's where the shooting started. I just don't know how you would think you're gonna bust out a safe in a couple hours.
Sunday night was the only night you could do a job like this because they were opened for night skiing every other night of the week and the lifts didn't close until 10 PM, the bar closed after that.
I looked at the picture of the safe and the hole they cut in it. It doesn't look like it was cut with a torch. Looks like it was cut with a grinder and cutting wheel. Nobody cuts that straight with a torch.
....... my suspicions remain the same.....inside job.
I agree. I think that they brought the guns to ensure that they would have time to get the safe out.
I don't thnk we have ever entertained this maybe scenario; did those AHs go out on the slopes to get those 2 poor guys with some sort of story? Thinking that they would have access to the safe.
amigobirdy

Tucson, AZ

#1791 May 17, 2010
justloafing wrote:
Hi, I just got done reading all the posts here. You all are good and this really makes for a great read. I pray for all families involved in the cases stated in this thread and hope the murders are not so cold.
I was in W. NY when the chair backup happened. There was a link to an article( I could not get it to come up). Here is one that I have. Also skied when it was Wing Hollow a couple of times.
http://fultonhistory.com/Process%20small/News...
One post talked about a Austrian that was rotten to the corps. Another Austrian came up too (Hans Aeur) Hans Auer is a very upstanding man. I just had to say that. He was the head ski instructor when it was Wing Hollow (The year after Grostal.) and maybe a little bit as Wing. I am not sure if he was there during Ski Wing or not. If he was it was a short time.
I have been in touch with a person that has been on the property and he took some pictures. The pictures were for lost ski areas so not a whole lot of things that are connected to the case. Yes he had permission by John Walsh. He talked with John and said Walsh had it pretty zipped up as far as being posted and the front gate being well blocked. So much so a ATV would have a hard time getting on the property. Here is a link to those pictures. You can double quick on the thumbs to make them bigger and double click again to blow them up even more.
http://www.snowjournal.com/page.php...
Probably not much help but pretty cool since not to many people have been in there for a long time (2009)
Thanks for your interest and for posting.
Freddie Mac

Braintree, MA

#1792 May 17, 2010
Janey wrote:
Thanks Freddie Mac for all your insight. Did you see the pic of where the safe was chipped away? It doesn't look like it would take very long to free the safe.
Did you know the janitor kid? He left the area very soon after and is living in the Pittsburgh area. His Aunt is the historian and when asked about Ski Wing, She says she doesn't remember the 70s.?!?!
Looking at the picture of the safe it doesn't look like it's 2 feet square. Might be around 16 inches on a side by comparing it to the LE's hands. Maybe a little bigger. Still, that's pretty deep and, if it was installed correctly, it could take a while to bust it out. Nope, never knew him.
Freddie Mac

Braintree, MA

#1793 May 17, 2010
justloafing wrote:
One post talked about a Austrian that was rotten to the corps. Another Austrian came up too (Hans Aeur) Hans Auer is a very upstanding man. I just had to say that. He was the head ski instructor when it was Wing Hollow (The year after Grostal.) and maybe a little bit as Wing. I am not sure if he was there during Ski Wing or not. If he was it was a short time.
I think Hans Auer was the head of the ski school for a couple years after it changed to Wing from Grostal. I think he left in the early 1970's, IIRC.
dick tracey

Kearney, NE

#1794 May 17, 2010
The safe was said to have been poured in with sakrete. Which would make getting it out fairly simple!I worked concrete for over 30 years and had it been anchored correctly in 6 inches of real concrete you couldn't have hardly blown it out much less chiseled it. Sakrete is very soft and never comes close to the hardness of real concrete no matter how long it sits there!Chances are you could kick it loose without much effort!I would be taking a real hard look at whoever installed it and anyone else who happened to be in the vicinity the day it was installed if they can find that out this may well be over with! I think Freddie is right on track!
justloafing

Maysville, NC

#1795 May 17, 2010
Freddie Mac wrote:
<quoted text>
I think Hans Auer was the head of the ski school for a couple years after it changed to Wing from Grostal. I think he left in the early 1970's, IIRC.
Hans went to Wing Hollow in 1970. In 1969 he was at Eagle Ridge (Westfield, NY) The owner was killed when a frontend loader bucket crushed him on the ski slope. That was the last year of Eagle Ridge and the Auers then went to Wing Hollow the following year. Yes I am not sure how long Hans was there. I know he went to a ski area in Mass. after that and his wife was at Cockaigne and Hans came back to finish his career up at Cockaigne.
justloafing

Maysville, NC

#1796 May 17, 2010
oops date fopa above. Eagle Ridge closed in 68 and Hans and Burgi went to Wing Hollow for the 69 - 70 season.
dick tracey

Kearney, NE

#1797 May 17, 2010
A simple 3 pd hammer will turn any sakrete ever poured into rubble and dust in very short order, I highly doubt they used anything more than that!
amigobirdy

Tucson, AZ

#1798 May 17, 2010
dick tracey wrote:
The safe was said to have been poured in with sakrete. Which would make getting it out fairly simple!I worked concrete for over 30 years and had it been anchored correctly in 6 inches of real concrete you couldn't have hardly blown it out much less chiseled it. Sakrete is very soft and never comes close to the hardness of real concrete no matter how long it sits there!Chances are you could kick it loose without much effort!I would be taking a real hard look at whoever installed it and anyone else who happened to be in the vicinity the day it was installed if they can find that out this may well be over with! I think Freddie is right on track!
If I remember correctly; Chuck had stated something similiar regarding the installation of the safe.
dick tracey

Kearney, NE

#1799 May 17, 2010
amigobirdy wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree. I think that they brought the guns to ensure that they would have time to get the safe out.
I don't thnk we have ever entertained this maybe scenario; did those AHs go out on the slopes to get those 2 poor guys with some sort of story? Thinking that they would have access to the safe.
I think this is highly unlikely ,considering they would know at that point they would have to kill them especially if they were'nt masked!I think it's far more likely like freddie stated they just walked in on them.If it was an inside job and i also think it was, then they most likely knew their killers by sight or voice.I don't think they went there with the intent to kill but didn't hesitate when spotted by the groomers.I'm sure it all happened very quickly!
Freddie Mac

Braintree, MA

#1800 May 18, 2010
dick tracey wrote:
The safe was said to have been poured in with sakrete. Which would make getting it out fairly simple!I worked concrete for over 30 years and had it been anchored correctly in 6 inches of real concrete you couldn't have hardly blown it out much less chiseled it. Sakrete is very soft and never comes close to the hardness of real concrete no matter how long it sits there!Chances are you could kick it loose without much effort!I would be taking a real hard look at whoever installed it and anyone else who happened to be in the vicinity the day it was installed if they can find that out this may well be over with! I think Freddie is right on track!
DT- I made the statement about it being installed with Sakrete. I also made the statement that it was installed by the maintenance crew. I heard this from another employee back in the day but I can't confirm if it is true. Take the information with a grain of salt. Unconfirmed hearsay....like about 90% of what's in these many pages. No proof. I would think LE could tell from samples if it was concrete or Sakrete. I also expect they know who installed the safe and when. I agree with your comment about removal of the safe if it was poured in with "real" concrete. That's what brought me back to the time issue. Whoever busted this safe out knew it was going to be easy. There's no way you would attempt to bust out a properly installed floor safe of that size in that short a time without a real jackhammer and a big compressor. Personally, and I've said this before, I think LE knows who did the job and don't have solid evidence because it wasn't collected or was compromised in some way. You can't get a conviction on hearsay.
Freddie Mac

Braintree, MA

#1801 May 18, 2010
amigobirdy wrote:
<quoted text>
If I remember correctly; Chuck had stated something similiar regarding the installation of the safe.
Chuck,

Can you confirm my comment about the sakrete?
Janey

Fredonia, NY

#1802 May 18, 2010
dick tracey wrote:
A simple 3 pd hammer will turn any sakrete ever poured into rubble and dust in very short order, I highly doubt they used anything more than that!
The pic, on Nighttraits of the floor and the broken concrete, looks like it would have taken a couple of strong guys a few minutes to have gotten that safe out.
Chuck

Fayetteville, NC

#1803 May 18, 2010
Freddie Mac wrote:
<quoted text>
Chuck,
Can you confirm my comment about the sakrete?
It was Sacrete---mortar is not concrete; purely sand and paste. It's brittle and easily crumbled. Did the installation on the "cheap" but it makes no matter; it still took time to pull it out and remove it; they did not "crack it" on site. They had to have gone to a machine shop, junkyard, garage, etc., to either saw, peel, or cut it to get in for the contents. That's the puzzle: Where was that done? It had to be local, then dumped local. Get all wrapped around the heist and we will lose the picture; the muirders are the issue and they had to be locals to (open) the safe and then dump the mf'r in the shallow water of the river afterwards. Which side of the bridge (toward Bradford or Rt 417) was the safe on? That should give direction of destination and point-of-origin?? i.e., was the safe dumped on the or from the lane facing Pa or the other direction toward NY? The morons would not run to the other side to dump that...or maybe they did, to throw off evidence---I doubt it, but...they were in a hurry, remember, they just killed two people.
Janey

Fredonia, NY

#1804 May 18, 2010
safe found on west side of bridge
Freddie Mac

Braintree, MA

#1805 May 18, 2010
It's possible that the safe was cut open the same night as the shootings but I doubt it. I would think the primary goal would be to get the safe out and off the property and deal with it later. They just had a job go from B&E & grand theft to double homocide. First priority would be to cover your tracks...literally. Stash the safe. Bust it open later. As far as I know, the perps went straight to the safe in th GM's office closet. I don't believe the rest of the office was trashed looking for it. They knew what they were looking for and knew where to find it. They also knew what it would take to get it out. Find the burglars and you've found the murderers.
dick tracey

Kearney, NE

#1807 May 18, 2010
I think there is no longer any doubt that this was an inside job and Very local. Now just a matter of which way did they leave and in or on what?

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