Old Saybrook Residents Question Price Of Septic Upgrades

Town officials have said that there are about 1,900 properties among 6,600 parcels in town that need to upgrade their septic systems after a two-decade battle with the state Department of Environmental Protection, which said that septic systems were leaking pollution into the groundwater and waterways.

[Concerned]

While I sympathize with the residents of Old Saybrook that will be affected regarding the cost for fixing their septic systems, the bottom line is that their systems are leaking pollution into the groundwater and waterways! It needs to be fixed. It's okay to complain but you all need to step up to the plate and do the right thing. Fifty percent of the cost will be covered between the town and the state and residents can apply for grants and loans for the rest. I think that is fair.

[Resident]

I understand this is a tough issue for the 1,900 residents. My question is - when it goes up for referendum, how is it fair to the residents, whose properties will be affected by the stipulated agreement, that the whole town votes? What happens when it passes because those not affected believe that "pollution" should be lowered and those that voted it down have to foot the bill? Here is a major problem with referendums...they include everyone when only a small segment of the population is affected. I believe, if you are not living in one of those communities, to make your vote count - stay home.

[Old Saybrook Townie]

Resident wrote:

I understand this is a tough issue for the 1,900 residents. My question is - when it goes up for referendum, how is it fair to the residents, whose properties will be affected by the stipulated agreement, that the whole town votes? What happens when it passes because those not affected believe that "pollution" should be lowered and those that voted it down have to foot the bill? Here is a major problem with referendums...they include everyone when only a small segment of the population is affected. I believe, if you are not living in one of those communities, to make your vote count - stay home.

What you are not seeing is that this does indeed affect everyone - every property in town. The other alternative is a sewer system. Lets see: If this passes, half is paid for with low income loans available for the rest. If the state mandates sewers, every property owner will have to shell out 20k plus. Most residents will not even have use of the sewers - will still have to maintain septic systems! Also, there will be NO help with payment..........No federal loans....
Lets think about this

[Resident]

Townie, I agree with you. I understand that there is not a "do nothing" option. These homeowners must choose the decentralized system since an overwhelming majority, including myself, does not want a centralized system in town. In that aspect, it involves the whole town and therefore, people will come out to vote FOR the decentralized system.

[Jim Vonmeier]

People in Old Saybrook should be thankful they get the opportunity to stay with septic systems. Building/operating treatment facilities is a multi-billion dollar a year industry for engineering firms, consultants and developers and a huge revenue stream for cities. Unfortunately greed has taken over and those that profit from these projects have resorted to numerous dirty tricks to get citizens onboard, i.e. under-bidding, omitting costs, telling people septic systems will be more expensive, stop pollution, etc.

But now homeowners are finding out the hard way that they actually paid $30,000 to $60,000 for that sewer hookup and because treatment facilities only reduce, not eliminate contaminates in wastewater, the pollution actually goes up. In fact the damages to our shore and coastlines went up almost 600% from 1995 to 2005 in areas where these treatment facilities were built.

Also with cities drawing billions of gallons of water out of the ground water supplies everyday and these facilities discharging into rivers (that lead to the ocean) or directly into the ocean we are depleting our nation’s water supplies at an alarming rate. We are already seeing these effects and unless we take steps to protect our local water supplies it will become a major crisis.

Septic systems on the other hand are far cheaper and if properly designed/maintained will produce zero pollution while recharging your local water supplies (if you thought $4 a gallon for gas was bad wait until you start paying $10 to take a shower because your well went dry and now you are buying your water from a truck).

Be grateful you have people like Don Lucas with the building dept that is looking out for you and your future and not in the pocket of some developer that wants to build another apartment complex or strip mall.

Jim Vonmeier-Environmental Educator

[Not in Kansas]

Let's hear it for democracy! Lie and tell 6700 people that they won't have to pay for sewers if they just force the "rich" 1900 in the minority to buy unnecessary and expensive septic systems.

Where is the evidence that pollution continues to be a problem since we were all forced to begin regular pump outs? Oh remember when those were only supposed to be for the residents of the "problem" areas?

Be very careful what you vote to happen in my back yard. The WWMD will include yours very soon.

But dare I ask, just what would be so bad about having a centralized sewer system?

[Jim Vonmeier]

How about miles of apartment buildings, condos and strip malls. How about taxes going through the roof when this new population explosion needs more police, fire, schools, welfare, road work, etc. How about a new meaning to the word “brown trout” in your rivers and streams when, not if, that plant breaks down and discharges thousands, even millions of gallons of raw sewage into it until they get it fixed.

How about red tide outbreaks in the Atlantic when that plant continually discharges high rates of nutrients into it and feeds this algae. How about when your wells run dry because the plant is pumping a billion gallons of your water into the Atlantic every week.

The damage from old cesspools and deep systems is well documented; people are flushing their toilets into the shallow water tables that feed the surface waters and in some cases where people have shallow wells, right into their kitchen sinks.

A properly designed, shallow system however will treat wastewater better than those multimillion dollar facilities, at a fraction of the cost, like 3 to 15 grand vs. 30 to 60 for the big-pipe. And if a septic costs more than that it is a case of gov gone wild with over-regulation and/or greedy contractors or the people are building a 19 bedroom McMansion.

Making sure you do not pollute the environment is the responsibility that goes along with owning a property (would you like it if every time your neighbor flushed their toilet it came up in your yard, your basement, your sink? It does happen).

If you do not want that responsibility then sell your property and move to the "city" and let them deal with your sewage. But why would you want to? Old Saybrook residents have a sweet deal going because 50% to 75% of the costs are going to be picked up by grants. That means my tax dollars are going to help someone else improve their property and make it more valuable without raising their taxes, but if it solves a problem so be it. I would rather have that money go to a working family that can use it than a multi-billion dollar company that greased a politician.

[you are right Jim]

If a WWMD is approved, that is exactly what will happen, high rise apartments and condos, since all rights go to the town to decide and no longer will the people have any say whatsoever. Without a WWMD, you absolutely do not have high rise apartment buildings and condos. They require a WWMD. Fortunately, we do not have pollution and no evidence any residential septic systems are leaking into the Sound.

[Jim Vonmeier]

Tell you what, the developers, engineers and shady politicos will say,“But your noncompliant septic systems MAY be doing damage so we are going to give you the pipe.”

Take the grant money and get compliant septic systems and you can tell them,“Gee, we just upgraded our systems to state standards. And it was awfully nice of you guys to pick up a lot of the tab, but because we already took care of any potential pollution problems you can run that big-pipe right up your…"

"And if you even think about spending public money on a project we don’t need we will have you criminally charged.”

[Old Saybrook Townie]

Jim Vonmeier wrote:

Tell you what, the developers, engineers and shady politicos will say,“But your noncompliant septic systems MAY be doing damage so we are going to give you the pipe.”
Take the grant money and get compliant septic systems and you can tell them,“Gee, we just upgraded our systems to state standards. And it was awfully nice of you guys to pick up a lot of the tab, but because we already took care of any potential pollution problems you can run that big-pipe right up your…"
"And if you even think about spending public money on a project we don’t need we will have you criminally charged.”

Thank you for telling it like it is!

[you are right Jim]

http://www.motherearthnews.com/Modern-Homeste...

Good information to know.

[Things Change]

The problem is that when I upgrade my septic and then they change the rules again in 5 or 6 years to the sewer they will require me to hookup to it with any new development on my property. Standard in all towns for this to happen and it would be a double standard in that case. Also why dont all people have to bare the burden. In all towns with sewer plants their is a sewer tax on EVERYONES BILL. Do the people who shell out the 20,000 get a pass from this bill. Would only seem fair that this happens dont you think?????? In a town on 8,000 where only about 2100 to 2300 people vote i would think the 1900 people, if they vote, would knock this down real easy. If it is like usual we have 1800 moaners and 100 voters!?!!!!???? A side note would be if FEMA changes the flood plain again would those people that are then included or excluded get a refund or be mandated to get the new septic. I personally was shafted in the last updated map and have to pay the flood insurance of over 3500.00 a year that wasnt required for 81 years?!!! People need to think ahead how thier house could be included in the future!!!!!!!!

[Jim Vonmeier]

There is strength in numbers and I will give you a prime example of how to do it and how it can benefit your community and pocket...but I have to run out so check back later today or tomorrow.

[Interested]

Fortunately, we cannot have it any better than we have it now. We have no pollution, beaches always open, no WWMD, we maintain our rights, no high rise buildings which require a WWMD, no systems that run on electricity 365 days a year, no systems that require monitoring daily through the use of a telephone 365 days a year, no quarterly maintenance charges; we cannot have it any better than we do now. It is unfortunate to try and split up the town when in fact the WWMD will become townwide-- the town is really voting in total for the same thing ; so why try and fool people now. Reply no 11 above shows some very interested data on truth in septics on mother earth news. Jim, you should be familiar with the article since your in the septic business! Talking about spending money on a project we don't need!

[Jim Vonmeier]

On a 5 minute break...I am aware of it and have contributed some of the articles on this scam. checkout http://www.shelterpub.com/_shelter/sewer_vs_s... to see one of them. Or go direct at http://septicprotector.com/Citysewerfraud.htm...

Lloyd Kahn is a good man that has been fighting this for years. But now it is far more than just a money or pollution issue...it is about us running out of water in this country.

More later...Jim

[Jim Vonmeier]

5 years ago a consultant rolled into the lakes area of Alexandria, Minnesota and “convinced” key people with 3 of the lake townships they needed a treatment plant. They would first sewer the 2,100 homes on the lakes and eventually hookup all of the 8,000 homes in the area. Most wanted this but a handful fought it because they knew what would happen with over development.

Last fall a woman called me and said they were going to start digging in 2 weeks and asked if there was anything I could do. I said if she paid for my gas I would drive up the next day for a town hall meeting. I listened as “they” sold people with the big-pipe good, septic bad spiel. Then I stood up and gave the audience the poop, the whole poop and nothing but the poop on what it would do their lakes, economy, and the real costs and then listed the advantages of septic systems.

That’s when people got angry. A caravan of cars headed to the state agency demanding the project be stopped because they had been misled and lied to. It was temporarily shutdown to allow the citizens to explore using septic systems as a solution. I began negotiating with local contractors and manufacturers for bulk discounts. Also a friend of mine, Bob Eichinger with greensepticsolutions.com is an expert at finding grant money and has found several programs available (millions sit in state/fed accounts but they don’t give it out unless you ask). We are kicking it off in about 3 weeks with two big community meeting where people sign-up.

Unfortunately this is where many communities I work with lose because they think they can just say no to the big-pipe and it will go away. Afraid not. There is still the potential for pollution from old non-compliant septic systems and the big-pipe profiteers use this to sell their solution, often going over everyone’s heads to grease some high ranking officials and get it pushed through.

You can fight it and win the battle but to win the war you need to put in code compliant septic systems and now is the best time to do it because there are billions in stimulus dollars and grants available to help you, but if you don’t jump on it now the big-pipe people will grab that cash and use it against you.

Old Saybrook is lucky because you have Don Lucas behind you. The big difference in Alex is it is totally citizen driven and I am going to use this as an example for the thousands of communities facing the big-pipe.

The fight for America’s water starts in Alexandria Minnesota on July 11.

[WatchOut4SwampYa nkees]

I bet the Health Department across the river in Old Lyme is watching this one, too. So far, Old Lyme has not been ordered by the State to come up with any type of plan. Old Lyme has enacted its own Sewer Avoidance Plan, whereby all septic tanks must be pumped every 5 years. This is to avoid hooking up to a sewer line which is already established and sits at the border in East Lyme.

For years, Old Lyme has collected year-round taxes on seasonal cottages, if the cottage does not meet the .2 acres minimum requirement for land. Having "non-conforming" lots was the town's way of preventing year-round residency. Their reasoning followed the notion that if there was a well on the property and if the old septic system failed, then there was not enough room to install a new septic system far enough away from the drinking well.

Does Old Saybrook have seasonal properties? If OS residents upgrade their septic systems, then does this allow non-conforming lots to be converted to year-round residences?

[Lynn de Roche]

if the pollutants detected are nitrogen: our chemical lawn fertilizers are mostly the major source. if the pollutant is urea or any other unwanted chemical: the significant drainage problems in Indian Town are most likely the major source.
what if tests are done after 18 mo.s of enacting a chemical fertilizer ban and repairing the drainage issues; I believe those common sense measures would provide the results present and future home owners,and the CT DEP seek.

[Not in Kansas]

Jim,

Please do not confuse small town Old Saybrook, Connecticut with the development that has devoured the country around the Minnesota Twin Cities. Towns here have zoning ordinances that control growth very well. Just ask any of the people who have tried to build more than a few homes in this town over the last twenty years. Commercial development is treated even more harshly. Sewers will not change that any more than they have in towns like the one in which I grew-up that still has a population of less than 11,000 thirty years after sewers.

The currently proposed Old Saybrook Waste Water Management District plan will change our town in ways far worse than commercial and high rise development ever will. Think Nantucket, Martha’s Vineyard, or our neighbors across Long Island Sound –“The Hamptons.” The population of largely senior citizens on fixed incomes or worse decimated by the current economic downturn and an unfair increase in property taxes will be forced to sell their homes. I know I have heard all about the grants and Low/No interest loans but these will still require payments of $300-$800 a month on top of tax increases of $100 a month. Many will be forced to sell small (under 1000 sq. ft.) homes that have been in families for up to four generations. The people who will be buying these homes will not be living in them. They will easily amass the land they need to build much larger homes with far more bathrooms and won’t mind paying for the $45,000 septic system. This is all part of the current municipal government “vision” for Old Saybrook.

We already have “city water” and working septic systems that are pumped and inspected regularly. We do not need either a sewer or a WWMD. We must win this battle against the forced “repair” of systems that aren’t broken before we can continue the war against sewers.

Vote NO to the Waste Water Management District on August 11.

[Not in Kansas]

Watch out,

Old Saybrook, Westbrook and Clinton beach area residents all have "city water" provided by The Connecticut Water Company (mysteriously based in Manchester, NH). Some pre-1950 homes still have old shallow point wells hidden in their basements, but use is forbidden. Also, part of the current "sewer avoidance" plan includes a moratorium on conversion of seasonal residences. I don't think that anyone has asked about changes in that as a result of the WWMD.

Lynn,
You are probably right about the greatest source of nitrates in the area. We have many more "lawn people"(as another long time resident calls them). Time was when folks took a live and let live attitude about whatever green stuff they mowed each Saturday morning. Dandelions were used as salad greens or for wine.